Russian tanks exhibited at entrance to Sevastopol, Ukraine.

seeker1963
I believe you are smart enough to know exactly what I am referring to. Therefore your ploy is to be intellectually dishonest!

No.. I honestly am asking you to support your position with facts and sources. That's not being dishonest, its me trying to understand your position / claims.

13th Zodiac
About time Putin shows the Globalist's who's boss ! Thank God the Olympic garbage is over so we can set things straight.

Really?? Putting "showed the Globalists"??

I always thought he was pretty much the most obvious of them - he's certainly one of the most obviously corrupt and has turned Russia into a kleptocracy!

13th ZodiacAgain with the Movie mentality. They also saved your ass in WW2

I must have missed the part where Russia saved the ass of the US in the Pacific Theater.
Can you point that out to me?
Unless you are claiming that WW2 only took place in Europe.

opethPA

13th ZodiacAgain with the Movie mentality. They also saved your ass in WW2

I must have missed the part where Russia saved the ass of the US in the Pacific Theater.
Can you point that out to me?
Unless you are claiming that WW2 only took place in Europe.

Been waiting for you and your clown avatar. Who said anything about the Pacific ? The war ended in contential Europé not the Pearl Harbour Movie. What are they teaching you? I guess you've missed heaps under your bridge, trit trot trit trot. Again pathetic.

reply to post by opethPA


That would be the bit where Germany didn't win in Europe - thus allowing the USA to crush Japan - which was never actually in any danger of beating the USA in any long war in the first place.

Let's face it -in Europe the USSR faced off 2/3 to 3/4 of German military might, they lost more people than the USA and UK/Commonwealth actually had under arms in total, and whatever way you want to look at it - including the Lend Lease aid from the western allies - they were the rock upon which victory in WW2 was pounded.

Of course Stalin wanted a 2nd front - his country was being smashed and losing millions of casualties every year - even Stalin wasn't so much of an idiot as to ignore that!

don't let being anti-communist blind you to the reality of what actually happened.

13th Zodiac

opethPA

13th ZodiacAgain with the Movie mentality. They also saved your ass in WW2

I must have missed the part where Russia saved the ass of the US in the Pacific Theater.
Can you point that out to me?
Unless you are claiming that WW2 only took place in Europe.

Been waiting for you and your clown avatar. Who said anything about the Pacific ? The war ended in contential Europé not the Pearl Harbour Movie. What are they teaching you? I guess you've missed heaps under your bridge, trit trot trit trot. Again pathetic.

You seem to think the war only dealt with continental Europe. you stated Russia saved the US during WWII. Since the facts don't support that, his question was valid. Your response did not support your statement. When, exactly during WWII, did Russia save the US?

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


And how many Soviet troops died by being forced to attack with no weapons at all? How many Soviet troops were gunned down by their own officers for retreating when they had no weapons to use.

How long did Russia stab Poland in the back before germany stabbed Russia in the back?

exactly when did Russia save the Us during WWII?

13th Zodiac
Been waiting for you and your clown avatar. Who said anything about the Pacific ? The war ended in contential Europé not the Pearl Harbour Movie. What are they teaching you? I guess you've missed heaps under your bridge, trit trot trit trot. Again pathetic.

Awesome, you think my avatar is funny. So do I , it's the reason I use it as their really isn't anything more ridiculous then black metal band poses.

You said Russia saved the US in WW2 and I pointed out that the Pacific Theater was a huge part of WW2 . If you would have said Russia saved the US at the end of the European theater then I wouldn't have responded.

reply to post by Xcathdra


I don't think Russia is invincible, as one of those who generally takes the side of caution when dealing with them. They are absolutely not invincible. However, neither are we....and the world of tight allies which existed the last time Russia was a disgruntled nation with issues simply doesn't exist anymore.

Even among EU members for various reasons and the EU as a whole toward the US, in no small part over the NSA scandals....tight alliances aren't what any of this could be called anymore. Putin lived and actually had command positions during the 1980's and the Cold War many of us recall. He was formed by it.

Ukraine has Sevastopol Naval Base and it's a major major strategic port to the Russian Navy. It's what gives them leverage around the Black Sea, in part, and it's a place they used in the conflict with Georgia. Putin will never let that go...and the most recent agreement that assured long term possession under lease was tied directly to the Gas supply Ukraine gets, as it happens.

Ukraine recently agreed to allow Russia to extend the lease on its naval base there until 2042. In return, Russia will cut its gas prices to Ukraine by 30 percent, and pay $7 million more per year in rent.

Source

This is all still on the backdrop of Russia being pressured to face possibly losing Syria and another strategic base at Tartus. It's a bad time to crowd Putin further, IMO.

The real bottom line in Russia vs. The US in ANY actual flag on flag engagements is that both of our nations have strengths and weaknesses sufficient to mix where no one will know or care who was better when it's all over. They just won't care anymore.....amid the ruins. It's a dangerous game I think the US and EU are playing here, with a dangerous man.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I am not claiming the US or NATO is invincible either. What I am saying is in comparison, the threat Russia poses is no where near to what people think they are.

Regardless of relations between the US and Europe, should Russia decide they want to go back to the glory says of the Soviet union, I doubt Europe is going to allow it to happen. One cold war was enough and I don't see a second one being entertained.

reply to post by opethPA


Really whose history book have they been reading lol. If it were not for the united states and dday the Russians were toast. Hitler had them beat and did not listen to his generals. The only reason the ruskies held out and got the upper hand was the beating he was taking from us and good old Patton.

If Hitler had not had to split his forces and make a couple key mistakes on the Russian front they were finished.

Thanks to us they were able to regroup and counter. They had nothing to do with saving us from anything. Frankly, if they had not stopped Patton we would not even be having this conversation.

Russia only had to fight on one front, and really just barely, barely defended their homeland. Had Hitler listened and committed the troops the generals wanted Russia was done. This my friend is history. Don't mistake a losses battle with the whole war. The war is all the battles combined.

Russia did nothing compared to what the united states did by themselves. There is no Russian blood on every island in the Pacific on the way to Japan. Give me a break. They would be speaking German if not for us.

Have to give props to then Russian ladies however, made some fine snipers.

The Bot

Resources given to Russia in WWII

Maybe it's the Russians who would not have beaten back the Germans without US, UK, and Canada???

Elathan
Resources given to Russia in WWII

Maybe it's the Russians who would not have beaten back the Germans without US, UK, and Canada???

they might have taken another 2-3 years and lost another 10 million people....but Germany could no more conquer Russia than Japan could beat the USA - remember most of that aid was not present when the Germans were stopped in 1941-42 - after that it certainly hastened the defeat of Germany - but lend lease was not what stopped Germany from defeating Russia.

Aloysius the Gaul

Elathan
Resources given to Russia in WWII

Maybe it's the Russians who would not have beaten back the Germans without US, UK, and Canada???

they might have taken another 2-3 years and lost another 10 million people....but Germany could no more conquer Russia than Japan could beat the USA - remember most of that aid was not present when the Germans were stopped in 1941-42 - after that it certainly hastened the defeat of Germany - but lend lease was not what stopped Germany from defeating Russia.

Hitler's buffoonery and winter weather is what allowed Russia to survive. Germany made it to the outskirts of Moscow.

However, I believe the challenge was for the person who claimed Russia saved the US during WWII to actually support that claim with, you know.. facts.

reply to post by Xcathdra


At the rate we're going, we're doing everything here to start the second cold war. Maybe there was a lot more going on last year and the year before during things like Putin pressuring closed the supply lines to Afghanistan and our troops from that direction. Perhaps some older grudges we're not factoring from the Georgia fight, but this one? McCain was JUST IN Kiev recently for a 'Rah Rah Kumbaya' speech with the so called 'rebels', and thumbing his nose at Putin by name while doing it. You figure he isn't seeing this as a major personal affront?

I think Russia has more than enough force to take back the Ukraine if Putin so chooses...and Europe has nothing like organized force capable of chasing that back into Russian air defense nets. It would be ugly, fast, and decisive. Hopefully, as noted before, Putin is a more mellow fellow than he can be assumed to have been, when serving as second in command to the KGB Station in East Berlin.

Russia has spent the last few years building up their forces on all types, quickly and with real determination. So even the Russia of 5 years ago, isn't the Russia of today for that area of concern.

dlbott
reply to post by opethPA

 

Really whose history book have they been reading lol. If it were not for the united states and dday the Russians were toast. Hitler had them beat and did not listen to his generals. The only reason the ruskies held out and got the upper hand was the beating he was taking from us and good old Patton.

Rubbish.

the USSR had stopped the Axis by the end of 1942 - the closest they got to Moscow was on 2 December 1941 - before Pearl Harbor!

Over 90% of lend lease supplies were received by the USSR after July 1942

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


So because McCain exercised free speech and sounded off against Putin that he is responsible for what's going on? Who cares if its an affront to Putin?

Why are people so quick to walk on egg shells when it comes to Putin and others? Putin and the others sure don't mind sounding off against the same people.

Its like the mentality on the South / North Korean border.

On the South side you cant make any gestures towards the North for fear of pissing them off, yet on the northern side its ok to make gestures to the South.

Aloysius the Gaul

dlbott
reply to post by opethPA

 

Really whose history book have they been reading lol. If it were not for the united states and dday the Russians were toast. Hitler had them beat and did not listen to his generals. The only reason the ruskies held out and got the upper hand was the beating he was taking from us and good old Patton.

Rubbish.

the USSR had stopped the Axis by the end of 1942 - the closest they got to Moscow was on 2 December 1941 - before Pearl Harbor!

Over 90% of lend lease supplies were received by the USSR after July 1942

You seem to be ignoring the part Romania and Hungary played in assisting Russian against the Nazis. Russia had issues up to the DDay invasion, at which point enough pressure was placed on the western front, allowing Russia breathing room and the ability to advance, as opposed to holding the line.

But, again, the challenge remains the claim that Russia saved the Us during WWII. Facts don't support that claim.

reply to post by Xcathdra


I have to wonder how closely you've been following this story.

Senator John McCain on Sunday told thousands of Ukrainian protesters camped on Kiev's main square that Ukraine's destiny lay in Europe and that it would make Europe better.

"Ukraine will make Europe better and Europe will make Ukraine better," he said to crowds protesting against President Viktor Yanukovich's U-turn in trade policy away from Europe towards Russia.

"We are here to support your just cause, the sovereign right of Ukraine to determine its own destiny freely and independently. And the destiny you seek lies in Europe," said McCain, a leading Republican voice on US foreign policy.

Source

Now I don't call that the free speech opinion of someone when they are a Senior Ranking U.S. Senator and thereby, member of the upper levels of the United States Government itself. He's far from any mere citizen...However, he didn't stop at what I'd have called real borderline.

KIEV, Ukraine - The United States could take “concrete action” against Ukraine if its government cracks down on dissent, Senator John McCain warned Sunday as he addressed thousands of protesters camped on Kiev's bitterly cold main square.

McCain, a leading Republican voice on U.S. foreign policy, told NBC News that sanctions against Ukraine "would deserve serious consideration" by Congress if Ukraine signed a customs and trade union with Russia instead of entering a trade deal with Europe.

Source

In my humble opinion, that's open support for a revolution and/or coup in advance of it actually happening...and there is 0 chance Putin has missed the connection. That is just one of multiple such examples of open communication by US Policy making level officials giving support to the internal unrest within the Ukraine.

We shouldn't complain at this point if that favor starts being returned, I'd just about say. We kicked the bear hard on this one.

The pipeline is being made obsolete by the Levathian and other LNG finsds recently.....If we could just get that line through Syria..............