Romans 13 and Ephesians 6:12(Thanks to 3NL1GHT3ND1)

reply to post by jmdewey60

What is "exactly why"? You start out saying "this" but never say what "this" is. You never make a point. You do ask a sort of rhetorical question, though. The answer is that they weren't being "good", that is why they got criticized. If everything was fine already, then it wouldn't have been necessary for Jesus to come in the first place, everyone could just follow the law. The problem is that the law can not make a person better on the inside.

I quoted a sentence of yours right before that statement, " "The overwhelming message of the Bible is to be good to people living righteously." What exactly is righteous living to you? The point I was trying to make can be seen by reading Matthew 23. The Pharisees live by the Law better than most, which means the live by keeping God's commandments in attempt to be "perfect as the heavenly father is perfect." If this is the overwhelming message of the Bible why does Jesus dog the people who uphold the Law better than everyone else?

You are paraphrasing. Paul says that we have all fallen short, past tense. And the "how hard we try" that Paul was talking about was following the old written Mosaic Law. His point was that the Jews and the gentiles are on a level playing field.

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

He uses the past tense meaning all have sinned in there past not that sinning was a thing they ceased to do. Now, I will say in God's eyes believers no longer sin, but rather it is the sin that lives within them.

Paul is quoting from the Old Testament as an illustration for his point that even with the Law, the Jews are not really closer to being perfect. Just following the Law doesn't make you completely righteous. Paul said elsewhere that he was, by the law, blameless, but he reckoned it all as so much dung in comparison to the righteousness that is possible through Jesus.

The Law doesn't make you righteous at all...That is my point.

OK, you just made that up. That was not the point that Paul was making. The Jews thought that they were better than the gentiles because they had the Law. Paul points out that even with the Law, they were still not there yet.

I made it up? Shall we look at Romans 3 verse 10?

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

So please tell me How I made that up? It is part of Gods law, which the Bible says not a jot of the Law will pass away until all is fulfilled. We are still waiting on Daniels 70th week so the Law is still the same.

What does Jesus say three times when he is tempted in the wilderness. It is written..., It is written.... It is written..
So no friend I did not make it up.

Think about Jesus and Nicodemus, how he had to tell him that he needed to be born again, even though he was a righteous person by the Law as interpreted by the Pharisees.

Yes one must be born again, and how is one to do that in your opinion ?

reply to post by jmdewey60

Apparently this is something you copied from a forum post. I don't think the person knows what they are talking about. If you want to make a point, then you should look it up yourself in a Jewish translation that wouldn't be influenced by the King James version.

I posted the source. However simply saying that my sources information is incorrect without presenting evidence of something that says otherwise just make this look like a red herring. Rather than argue against the information you attack the source.

All things "in heaven and earth", so it is not saying that he is the creator of the universe. All these things that are attributed to him are constructs of human psychology, the ideas of government and rulership.

So Jesus created Heaven and Earth but not the universe is that what your saying?

Who? I just quoted the verse in Hebrews in my earlier post on this thread that says it was God.

Lol you are removing John 3 from context and placing it with Hebrews. That is intellectually dishonest.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

I quoted a sentence of yours right before that statement, " "The overwhelming message of the Bible is to be good to people living righteously." What exactly is righteous living to you? The point I was trying to make can be seen by reading Matthew 23. The Pharisees live by the Law better than most, which means the live by keeping God's commandments in attempt to be "perfect as the heavenly father is perfect." If this is the overwhelming message of the Bible why does Jesus dog the people who uphold the Law better than everyone else?

Be good.
The Law was the schoolmaster, according to Paul, for people who otherwise would not have any idea what being good means.
The Pharisees misused it to make out that they were better than everyone else.
That was not the purpose of the law, to make yourselves lords of this club of the spiritual elite.
Jesus criticized the ones who were not really good and just put on a front that made them look good.
He still wanted everyone to be good.

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

He uses the past tense meaning all have sinned in there past not that sinning was a thing they ceased to do. Now, I will say in God's eyes believers no longer sin, but rather it is the sin that lives within them.

I would suggest that you try reading Romans to see what Paul is actually saying, rather than just hunting for things that you can twist to prove your little theories.
Paul didn't sin according to the Law, so he says, but he realized that it didn't necessarily make him righteous or at least not to the point that he could with Jesus because that is the path the spirit follows from God to the believer to have true godliness.

The Law doesn't make you righteous at all...That is my point.

The point you seemed to be making was that it is not possible to be righteous.

I made it up? Shall we look at Romans 3 verse 10?

Yes.
Here's what you said, that I said was made up:
"So no one lives righteously, and no one can live righteously."

Yes one must be born again, and how is one to do that in your opinion ?

Become a Christian.
The "Kingdom" is the church.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

. . . just make this look like a red herring.

What source?
The is a citation in your quote but it is from the Talmud.

. . . you attack the source.

It wasn't even really about the subject that I was discussing.
I already told you what to do about it.
Unless you can refute it, my point stands, that the "Eternal Father" clause is not Old Testament, but medieval commentary that got grandfathered in.

So Jesus created Heaven and Earth but not the universe is that what your saying?

No.
It says that he created these things in heaven and earth, where you have to take it to mean that heaven and earth were already there, and Jesus created certain things in it.

Lol you are removing John 3 from context and placing it with Hebrews. That is intellectually dishonest.

Speaking of "intellectual", could you rephrase this as a sentence?

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

Romans 10:9-10, and 13
If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved ... For “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

As opposed to another part of the human anatomy that the Jews thought was so crucial to salvation.

Romans 8:1
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus.

"Belonging" here is not a trivial matter and it means following the law of faith.

Romans 8:38-39
And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Paul is talking about those who have been "conformed to the image of his Son".

I believe you have misinterpreted the Greek text yourself here friend lets look at Acts.

Acts 3:19 says: "Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord.

This is presenting a scene where Peter is telling "Israel" that if they repented from rejecting their Messiah, then that crime would be forgiven.
It is not something meant to be put to use theologically for individual salvation.

The word most frequently translated "repent" in the Greek text throughout the NT is "mentanoeo", which literally means, “to change your mind; reconsider; or, to think differently.”

Literally, it means "repent".
What you are doing is looking at the root words that were put to use, theoretically, to make the current word.

So when God tells us to repent and be saved he means to CHANGE YOUR MIND about how it is you are to be saved. It is not by works but by grace, and many will be deceived by the lie of the devil that you may work your way into heaven for Jesus will tell you he never knew you.

When does the devil lie that people have to be good? If you look at all the instances on the Bible of people being deceived, it is always that it is OK to be bad.
Could you actually quote anything that supports your theory other than the one I already explained in Ephesians?
The person who in the parable Jesus says he doesn't know, was not a good person.
Doing good works does not make up for doing bad at the same time.
You have to give up the bad things, too.
When Jesus says, "ye that work iniquity. ", he didn't mean the good things made him rejected.
There was still iniquity in his life.

John 6
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

To say Jesus's message was to live righteously, would mean Jesus lied here.

So, then you think that you can believe in Jesus and think that you can go and sin and feel good about it?

reply to post by jmdewey60

What source? The is a citation in your quote but it is from the Talmud

The source I posted as a reference to where I pulled that information. It presents information that can be checked out. If you have a problem with it argue with the information not tell me that he doesn't know what he is talking about because he makes a reference to owning a Talmud.....

It wasn't even really about the subject that I was discussing. I already told you what to do about it. Unless you can refute it, my point stands, that the "Eternal Father" clause is not Old Testament, but medieval commentary that got grandfathered in.

I agree, but there is still a name for the Father there. John one attributes all of creation to the Word(which John 1 later tells us is Christ).

No. It says that he created these things in heaven and earth, where you have to take it to mean that heaven and earth were already there, and Jesus created certain things in it.

That is exactly what I am saying it does not say.....? I said Jesus is the CREATOR of ALL things, that would include Heaven and Earth? So quit putting words in my mouth.

Speaking of "intellectual", could you rephrase this as a sentence?

Nope. This is a forum, and grammar is quite honestly the least of my worries as long as the point gets across. However, this is technically already a sentence I just didn't captilize you. You(subject) are removing(verb) John 3 from context and placing it with Hebrews. Nice Ad Hominem used as a Red Herring to ignore the information presented good job.

Faith is accepting the invitation. "Saved" has taken on a connotation that means something other than what it originally meant in the Bible. Pop-culture religion says that being saved is a guaranteed free ride to heaven. Ephesians goes on to say that we were saved to a life of good works, and that happens in the here and now, not in heaven.

Faith is believing that Jesus sacrifice was sufficient enough to cleanse all of mankind's sins. If one must first have faith, and then live a life of good works(which I have already quoted passages that say NO ONE IS RIGHTEOUS-and that our righteous acts are as filthy rags) then you are saying that Jesus only made it possible for me to work my sin off; not that he saved me from my sin.

This is presenting a scene where Peter is telling "Israel" that if they repented from rejecting their Messiah, then that crime would be forgiven.

Doesn't it make sense that Peter would tell Israel that if the act of repentance is changing your mind about needing a savior?

So, then you think that you can believe in Jesus and think that you can go and sin and feel good about it?

No I do not. However, I also know it is completely impossible for me to quit sinning. That if I have one sin left on me when I get to Heaven that I deserve to be tossed to eternal punishment. I know that I cannot do something like this. This is why I must believe that Jesus saved me from being such a wretched person. Do I feel good about sinning? No and at no point in time did I say that.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

. . . if I have one sin left on me when I get to Heaven that I deserve to be tossed to eternal punishment.

That sounds pretty pessimistic.
Our souls need to be cleansed of sin, and at the Resurrection, these bodies of corruption will be changed.
Don't limit God and His power to save.

OP,

Your thread is proof.

God did not give every person reading the Bible the authority to interpret it. God gave it to the Church who compiled the Bible. Read a Catholic Bible, I recommend the English translation of the first Bible (Latin Vulgate). The footnotes will help you on the difficult verses. So sad, the awful heresy of private judgment.

Fact, not one verse in the Old Testament or New Testament contradicts if you follow the Church interpretation of Scripture.

Purchase a hardcover or paperback Douay-Rheims Bible, we will not have the Internet forever.

www.drbo.org...

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

The source I posted as a reference to where I pulled that information. It presents information that can be checked out. If you have a problem with it argue with the information not tell me that he doesn't know what he is talking about because he makes a reference to owning a Talmud.....

Back to your earlier external quote from a web site, in it a Dr. Price is saying that he has a Jewish translation, and quotes it as saying in part, "and his name shall be called "Wonderful counsellor of the mighty God, of the everlasting Father, of the Prince of peace".
He doesn't say what version he is quoting. That was my complaint.
I suggested that you look yourself, at a Jewish made translation.
Since you didn't, I Googled it and found an online Tanakh.
Its translation is:

For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."
www.chabad.org...

It looks like the direct reference to the son stops at the word, shoulder. From there, it is God who is the subject, the Wondrous Adviser (and so on), who calls the son, "Prince of Peace".

. . . there is still a name for the Father there. John one attributes all of creation to the Word(which John 1 later tells us is Christ).

In this Jewish translation, the "father" attribute is given to God.
In the Greek and Hebrew, there is not a word for father included, but just "everlasting", so apparently "father" is traditionally inserted to make the adjective into a proper noun.
What started this whole discussion between me and you is your objection to my calling Jesus our older brother.
You asked how he could be our brother when Isaiah says he is the Everlasting Father.
It seems that, properly translated, and not influenced by Christian doctrine, it doesn't actually say that.
It says that God is the Father.

That is exactly what I am saying it does not say.....? I said Jesus is the CREATOR of ALL things, that would include Heaven and Earth? So quit putting words in my mouth.

There is a disconnect here based on apparently some reading comprehension problems.
Saying that Jesus made certain things in heaven and earth does not mean that he made the heaven and earth.

You(subject) are removing(verb) John 3 from context and placing it with Hebrews.

That is very uninformative, so I can't hardly respond to it.

Faith is believing that Jesus sacrifice was sufficient enough to cleanse all of mankind's sins.

That is your personal theory completely detached from any Bible teaching.

If one must first have faith, and then live a life of good works(which I have already quoted passages that say NO ONE IS RIGHTEOUS-and that our righteous acts are as filthy rags) then you are saying that Jesus only made it possible for me to work my sin off; not that he saved me from my sin.

"NO ONE IS RIGHTEOUS" is an Old Testament quote Paul gave as an example of a situation which existed when there was just the old written Mosaic Law.
Romans 8:30
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
(2011 NIV)
To be "saved from sin" wold be to be made free of sin. It isn't "working off" sin as if you could pay them off as if they were a debt.
God has the power to forgive sins by simply forgetting them.
What you are doing is accepting Augustine's theory that all sins have to have a punishment.
That is only true of the ones that haven't been forgiven.
Augustine probably got that idea from the Roman justice system.

Doesn't it make sense that Peter would tell Israel that if the act of repentance is changing your mind about needing a savior?

That isn't what was being described in Acts.
They were guilty of the murder of an innocent man. There was something wrong with them where they were driven by evil impulses. They needed to have a change of heart, and a change in behavior.

reply to post by jmdewey60



"To be "saved from sin" wold be to be made free of sin. It isn't "working off" sin as if you could pay them off as if they were a debt. "

You have been arguing that we have to have faith and works. I say just faith. You are the one who seems to think that Jesus requires a "working off" of sin not me...you are obviously not paying any attention to what I have said otherwise you wouldn't keep saying that I believe things that I was arguing against......I just cant anymore...lol

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

You are the one who seems to think that Jesus requires a "working off" of sin not me...

No, I don't.
You are the one who thinks that sin is a debt that has to be paid.
You just think someone else pays it.
My point is that is a theory that comes from Augustine, and not the Bible, so you are actually promoting Catholic doctrine, without even realizing it.
The Bible says we are saved to good works, if you think otherwise, then you are putting human philosophy above the word of God.

jmdewey60
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

 

You are the one who seems to think that Jesus requires a "working off" of sin not me...

No, I don't.
You are the one who thinks that sin is a debt that has to be paid.
You just think someone else pays it.
My point is that is a theory that comes from Augustine, and not the Bible, so you are actually promoting Catholic doctrine, without even realizing it.
The Bible says we are saved to good works, if you think otherwise, then you are putting human philosophy above the word of God.

I do not believe it as a debt like money. When I say Jesus "paid" for my sins, I mean he was dealt the punishment for my sins in my place. My acceptance of Him as my Lord and Savior is when the Holy Spirit indwelled within me; and all my sins are forgiven. How exactly do you believe one achieves salvation friend?

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

How exactly do you believe one achieves salvation friend?

Salvation was the giving of the spirit and commission to the disciples after he had risen and ascended to the Father and returned to give that authority to found the church.

That is according to the biblical definition of salvation.

In the modern pop-culture religion definition of the word, then it would be the culmination of a life spent in that church that Christ is the head of.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Please use Scripture as evidence for your claim.

Here what I believe the Bible says about Salvation, and if anything I say is incorrect please quote the Scripture to show me were I was wrong do not just speculate about what is going on in context or anything of that nature so that I may learn.

I believe that every person on Earth is a sinner.

You said that Romans 3 and Isaiah do not say this. Just so I am not accused of misreading context I will quote a large majority of the text.

Romans 3(NASB)
...“Let us do evil that good may come”? [f]Their condemnation is just.

9 What then? [g]Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written,

“There is none righteous, not even one;
11 There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,”
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood,
16 Destruction and misery are in their paths,
17 And the path of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are [h]under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for [j]through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
Justification by Faith

21 But now apart [k]from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those [l]who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all [m]have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a [n]propitiation

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Jumping out from behind the server and shouting BOO!

in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, [p]because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who [q]has faith in Jesus.

27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 [r]For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works [s]of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the [t]circumcised by faith and the [v]uncircumcised through faith is one.

31 Do we then nullify [w]the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Now I will break down the passage to ensure that I am not misinterpreting anything. So lets look first at verse 8-9. Paul says that God is justified in condemning those who say "let us do evil so that what is good may come?" Immediately after that Paul ask a rhetorical question

9 What then? [g]Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

He says that all Jews and Greeks are under sin, and to strengthen this point he quotes from the OT:

“There is none righteous, not even one;
11 There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,”
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood,
16 Destruction and misery are in their paths,
17 And the path of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eye

The next few verses Paul will tell us something very important the point that is to show all of Mankind are sinners.

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are [h]under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for [j]through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

The bold part above tells us that not only the Jews, but all the world is accountable to God. He then tells us that the works of the Law will justify no man in the Sight of God, but that only knowledge(awareness or familiarity gained by experience of a fact or situation) of sin comes by the Law.

21 But now apart [k]from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those [l]who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all [m]have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus

Remember the point I am trying to make is that all men are sinners. The bold part above says the for those who believe in the atonement of Christ there is no distinction between any man on earth, because "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." I do not know how else to interpret this other than all men are sinners, and then verse 24 will tell us that those who believe are justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus. Paul then goes on to explain how God has not abolished the Law, but established the Law. He then goes on to explain how people under the Old Law were saved by faith as well. He uses Abraham as an example in Romans 4. Another example of OT people being saved by faith is Noah. In reality it is not Noah's building of the Ark that saves Him, but rather his FAITH in God to listen and build the boat that saves him. The work was a result of FAITH not the other way around.

I also believe that sin has a punishment and this is why salvation is needed.

Romans 6
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 Therefore what

This post was part of a special Halloween Homage to Orson Wells.
Jumping out from behind the server and shouting BOO!

benefit were you then [p]deriving [q]from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you [r]derive your [s]benefit, [t]resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The Bible speaks of two births and two deaths. The first birth and death are of our physical bodies, and the second birth and death are spiritual. Salvation is meant only to save us from the second death. How is salvation achieved(which is the question I asked you)?

John 3
3 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these [a]signs that You do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born [c]again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. 12 If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever [d]believes will in Him have eternal life.

16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His [e]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him

So to achieve in Salvation one must be born-again. Nicodemus is confused in this passage as to how this is possible, and ask Jesus how it is to be done. Jesus answers him by saying, "One must be born of water(physical birth) and the Spirit." How is one born of the Spirit? These verses also tell us this is done by believing that Jesus was the One through which God brought salvation of all mankind.