Romans 13 and Ephesians 6:12(Thanks to 3NL1GHT3ND1)

reply to post by jmdewey60

Jesus is never described in the Bible as a scapegoat.

he is compared to the "lamb" going to slaughter...

Similar to a goat...which is "released into the wilderness" in Lev 16 taking the "sins" of others with him

which makes an interesting parallel to HIS parable about the goats and the sheep

reply to post by jmdewey60


Isaiah 11 continues to say that when Israel is regathered from the four corners of the earth, "the wolf will dwell with the lamb, and the leopard with the goat". This has not happened yet, therefore it is still a future prophecy.

The Beast of Revelation is "the Beast that was but is not and is about to rise out of the Abyss". He is the first of 7 kings that will be the 8th (Rev 17:11). His symbol is the scarlet beast with 7 heads and 10 horns (Rev 17:3). This king is identified as the Beast that rises from the Abyss. Apollyon is the Angel that rises from the Abyss in the 5th trumpet. The Anti-Christ is identified as the 7 headed beast rising from the sea (Rev 13). It is the same symbol for both characters because each symbol represents two sides of the same character. Therefore, we know from the composite description that the antichrist is:

1. An ancient ressurected Assyrian king
2. A hybrid of Man and Angel (angel of the abyss; 666, the number of a man.)
3. An evil entity that rises out of a big smoking hole on the ground.

Who fits this description? Nimrod, the mighty hunter against the Lord. He was the King of the first world order. He founded Assyria, Babylon and probably consolidated Egypt. His death immortalized him in mythology as Orion, Marduk, Asshur, Osiris, and Apollo/Apollyon.

Even the Hungarian legend of the White Stag identifies Nimrod as Orion.

reply to post by Akragon

. . . "lamb" going to slaughter . . .

You need to check your references.

reply to post by jmdewey60


John called him the lamb of the world...

Leviticus says this...

And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the Lord, and the other lot for the scapegoat.

9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the Lord's lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.

10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

there is little difference between a "sheep" and a goat... one runs in herds and gets nervous outside of the crowd... while the other is curious and inquisitive... and tends to take his own path...

Still religious propaganda written in a way to make those who want power over others to say "hey, see this? this says that god says i can do this". There is no god, and if there is, IT doesn't care about how we live or what we do, One would imagine that an all knowing all powerful entity would be above our puny insignificant existence IF it did in fact have a conscious outlook on all it created

reply to post by jmdewey60


The Seals of Revelation are a summary of the Church Age and the 7 year period following it. The 4 horsemen are angels that patrol the earth and have the power to spread disease, peace, war and death (Zech 1:7-11/ Zech 6:1-8). The 5th seal is the Ressurection of the Church Age martyrs and therefore the beginning of the 7 year tribulation. The 6th seal is the 2nd Advent in summary. The 7th seal is an intermission (like a Greek drama) then, the tribulation starts in detail beginning with the 1st trumpet and ending in the 7th vial.

Basically, all of the events from the 1st Trumpet to the 7th Vial fit in between the 5th and 6th seal. Ancient writting style usually summarised the content of the message before going into detail.

John the Baptist called Jesus the Lamb of God before baptizing Him. Jesus came to willingly die for our sins so that we could be made clean by His blood, the Blood of the Lamb. That is what the Bible teaches. Anything different is man's philosophy (wisdom of the world).

Prophecy is not the issue here. The real issue is whether or not you belong to the family of Christ or the world.

I'll leave the conversation on that note. If you have honest inquiries about the true nature of salvation, I'll respond to the best of my ability, but I will not get locked into another circular argument about the symbology and cotton candy philosophies of your version of the Bible.

We struggle against rulers and authorities.

How many protests haven't taken place in this world against decisions of authorities? We have to do what the authorities ask of us, cause they rule the world, and they have the power to put us in prison or, not so long ago, sentence us the penalty of death. We all know that is murder right, you can twist and turn it all you want, killing = murder, do you see?

Authorities killing a killer is also a kill.

Now to my point. We do what the authorities ask of us, yet when we don't, we struggle against them, and we also struggle against them doing protests and whatever.

You can't drive a car without a drivers license. Let's say you lost it, or they took it back from you, and you have a car, and you say: "hey, I can drive a car, but I have no license". And then, when you drove it, you struggled against the authorities, imo.

reply to post by Akragon

John called him the lamb of the world...

You are paraphrasing.
Isaiah 53:7
He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.
(2011 NIV)
Here is the "lamb to the slaughter" reference you mentioned earlier, in the "Suffering Servant" passage in Isaiah.
It is already being used for making an analogy, way back when Isaiah was being written.
The suffering Servant wouldn't have been understood as a Messiah back before Jesus came and was crucified, but was, later, once there were Christians who had to deal with the fact that he was crucified.
Before then, it would have been thought of as Israel in general, or the upper class of Judea in particular, who were taken captive and carted off to Babylon to live as hostages.
The idea being that even though they didn't necessarily do anything wrong themselves, had to suffer through the punishment brought down on them through the other people in the country supposedly not being loyal to the temple in Jerusalem, and using alternative altars in places picked out to be holy for local sacrifices.

Anyway, the passage would have been familiar enough to the people of Judea at the time that John the Baptist came on the scene, and regardless of the current popularity of the idea that they were speaking a variant of Hebrew, the reality is that most Jews read the Old Testament in Greek, in the Septuagint.
If you look at the verse quoted above, you see two words used there, in this version, the first is translated as lamb, and the second as sheep. The lamb gets killed and the sheep gets sheered.
προβατον is the first word, and αμνος is the second one.
αμνος is the word used in
John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
(2011 NIV)
where what I want to point out is that the Baptist chooses the word that in the Isaiah passage is not the one related to being killed, but is still included in the general analogy of this person who through his experience raises the status of everyone else who is in the represented group.
Looking at the word translated as "takes away", it actually means to lift up, or to elevate.
All people are afflicted by sin in one way or another and no matter how good a person might be, they are never going to hold up to really close scrutiny.
Jesus came for those people who were really good inside but were social outcasts in the eyes of the judgmental legalists of the culture's religion.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

Jesus came to willingly die for our sins so that we could be made clean by His blood, the Blood of the Lamb. That is what the Bible teaches.

OK, then could you point out where it supposedly teaches that?
The overwhelming message of the Bible is to be good people living righteously.
It isn't about how to be bad and have someone fix it for you.
People are "cleansed" of sin by repenting of sin and going forward not sinning, and that comes from a belief in Jesus and his sacrifice of himself to bring us to God, knowing how much He loves us.
He had to die to be resurrected as our older brother who we follow into life eternal.

Prophecy is not the issue here. The real issue is whether or not you belong to the family of Christ or the world.

It is the "issue" because you were presenting this idea that prophecy is for the current Jews, and has nothing to do with the church, which you believe is going to soon be taken away. The "world" wins in your scenario.

The overwhelming message of the Bible is to be good people living righteously. It isn't about how to be bad and have someone fix it for you. People are "cleansed" of sin by repenting of sin and going forward not sinning, and that comes from a belief in Jesus and his sacrifice of himself to bring us to God, knowing how much He loves us. He had to die to be resurrected as our older brother who we follow into life eternal.

Friend, this passage here shows that you have never truly heard the Gospel. I will break it down for you using Scripture, and I do not know where you stand on the subject of if God exist or not, however, I ask you to Truly reach out and search for him and Truth will be shown.

"The overwhelming message of the Bible is to be good to people living righteously."

This is exactly why Jesus calls the Pharisees(The most religious Jews who knew the Law frontwards, and backwards.) all kind of names such as vipers, and hypocrites(Matthew 23). If they were keeping the Law and his message is to be good(an opinion if there is no belief in a higher power) by living righteously why does Jesus dog them so hard for just trying to do what is right?

"It isn't about being bad and having someone fix it for you."

This sentence is some what right, and some what wrong. You are right its not about being bad, but rather that no matter how hard we try to live righteously we will always fall short of the glory of God(Romans 3:23). You said we are meant to live righteously, but if we back up in Romans 3:10-12, we will see why someone needs to come and save us.

Romans 3:10-12, and 23
As the Scriptures say, “No one is righteous—not even one. No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God. All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one.” ... For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard.

Isaiah 64:6
"All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags..."


So no one lives righteously, and no one can live righteously. The price of sin is death(Romans 6:23, also see 1 peter 3:18). God sent Jesus to pay this price for us(Romans 5:8). Salvation and eternal life come from Faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior. The sacrifice that Jesus made fulfilled the law(1 Peter 3:18). This sacrifice is all I need for salvation, if I am meant to do some sort of physical action the salvation no longer becomes a gift(Ephesians 2:8) since a gift is free.

Romans 10:9-10, and 13
If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved ... For “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Romans 8:1
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:38-39
And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.



" People are "cleansed" of sin by repenting of sin and going forward not sinning, and that comes from a belief in Jesus and his sacrifice of himself to bring us to God, knowing how much He loves us."

I believe you have misinterpreted the Greek text yourself here friend lets look at Acts.

Acts 3:19 says: "Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord.

The word most frequently translated "repent" in the Greek text throughout the NT is "mentanoeo", which literally means, “to change your mind; reconsider; or, to think differently.” So when God tells us to repent and be saved he means to CHANGE YOUR MIND about how it is you are to be saved. It is not by works but by grace, and many will be deceived by the lie of the devil that you may work your way into heaven for Jesus will tell you he never knew you.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Just to strengthen the Scriptural argument what is the will of the Father? Jesus is asked this very question, or one virtually identical.


John 6
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

To say Jesus's message was to live righteously, would mean Jesus lied here.

reply to post by jmdewey60


He had to die to be resurrected as our older brother who we follow into life eternal.

How can Christ be your older Brother when he is your Creator?

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

How can Christ be your older Brother when he is your Creator?

Hebrews 2:10-11
In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered.
Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.
(2011 NIV)
Read this, make it your study, and pray that God gives you understanding.

jmdewey60
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

 

How can Christ be your older Brother when he is your Creator?

Hebrews 2:10-11
In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered.
Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.
(2011 NIV)
Read this, make it your study, and pray that God gives you understanding.

edit on 23-2-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Thats a good point. I personally feel that that is more accurately translated brethren, and that it means that we are part of his family. If we continue down Hebrews 2 shortly after that we see a quote from him saying "Behold, I and the children whom God has given me." Not Behold I and the sibilings God has given me."

Jesus is the everlasting Father(Isaiah 9:6). Also, you comment seems to imply that Jesus was created, which is not logical sense the Bible also calls him the Creator of all things.

EyesOpenMouthShut
Still religious propaganda written in a way to make those who want power over others to say "hey, see this? this says that god says i can do this". There is no god, and if there is, IT doesn't care about how we live or what we do, One would imagine that an all knowing all powerful entity would be above our puny insignificant existence IF it did in fact have a conscious outlook on all it created

"There is no God, and if there is, IT doesn't care about how we live or what we do."

The Semiotic Nature of DNA is pretty decent evidence for the existence of a Intelligent Design to life. I believe Bill Gates said that "DNA works like a computer code far more complex than any we have ever been able to derive." DNA transmits information that has a semiotic dimension, and in every other instance that we know of it is impossible to account for semiotic dimension without the input of intelligence.

If you are going to make such a bold statement. At least have some kind of evidence.

"...and IT doesn't care about how we live or what we do."

Well considering the harmonious structure of the universe and the very precise conditions needed for life I'd say if there is a God the universe was created with us in mind, not just the gears of clock going round and round for his entertainment.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

I personally feel that that is more accurately translated brethren, and that it means that we are part of his family.

There is a footnote for that in the 2011 NIV translation.

g 11 The Greek word for brothers and sisters (adelphoi) refers here to believers, both men and women, as part of God’s family; also in verse 12; and in 3:1, 12; 10:19; 13:22.

The revision from the earlier edition of the NIV was on purpose written to be inclusive, where in the day of the King James, that wasn't a concern, and women were not specifically taken into consideration.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

Jesus is the everlasting Father(Isaiah 9:6).

For some reason that bit gets into the English translations, probably because it is traditional.
It is not in the Greek version of the Old Testament, or in the Hebrew version, but only in the Latin Vulgate, where it says, "the Father of the world to come".

Also, your comment seems to imply that Jesus was created, . . .

What comment is that?

. . . which is not logical sense the Bible also calls him the Creator of all things.

Would you like to point out where it says that?

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

This is exactly why Jesus calls the Pharisees(The most religious Jews who knew the Law frontwards, and backwards.) all kind of names such as vipers, and hypocrites(Matthew 23). If they were keeping the Law and his message is to be good(an opinion if there is no belief in a higher power) by living righteously why does Jesus dog them so hard for just trying to do what is right?

What is "exactly why"?
You start out saying "this" but never say what "this" is.
You never make a point.
You do ask a sort of rhetorical question, though.
The answer is that they weren't being "good", that is why they got criticized.
If everything was fine already, then it wouldn't have been necessary for Jesus to come in the first place, everyone could just follow the law.
The problem is that the law can not make a person better on the inside.

That being said, the Law was given to make people to behave in a better sort of way than they would otherwise.
There is always this overarching imperative in the Bible for people to behave in an ethical way, and "right" by the law.
In the New Testament there is given the information necessary for people to be better people on the inside, which is accepting Jesus as Lord and receiving the spirit from God, through Jesus, that makes it possible.

You are right its not about being bad, but rather that no matter how hard we try to live righteously we will always fall short of the glory of God(Romans 3:23).

You are paraphrasing. Paul says that we have all fallen short, past tense. And the "how hard we try" that Paul was talking about was following the old written Mosaic Law. His point was that the Jews and the gentiles are on a level playing field.

Romans 3:10-12, and 23
As the Scriptures say, “No one is righteous—not even one. No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God. All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one.” ... For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard.

Isaiah 64:6
"All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags..."

Paul is quoting from the Old Testament as an illustration for his point that even with the Law, the Jews are not really closer to being perfect.
Just following the Law doesn't make you completely righteous.
Paul said elsewhere that he was, by the law, blameless, but he reckoned it all as so much dung in comparison to the righteousness that is possible through Jesus.

So no one lives righteously, and no one can live righteously.

OK, you just made that up.
That was not the point that Paul was making.
The Jews thought that they were better than the gentiles because they had the Law.
Paul points out that even with the Law, they were still not there yet.
Think about Jesus and Nicodemus, how he had to tell him that he needed to be born again, even though he was a righteous person by the Law as interpreted by the Pharisees.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

The price of sin is death(Romans 6:23, . . .

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(2011 NIV)
"Wages".
Do you ever work for anyone?
After you do a day's work, does the person you worked for ask you to pay him?
Do you know the difference between what is owed to you and what you owe to someone else?

Paul was using something called rhetoric.
He was making a comparison between two systems, one is the natural system of life and death, and the other is God's system where there is another option, called eternal life.

. . . also see 1 peter 3:18).

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.
(2011 NIV)
The topic of the discussion that this verse is taken from is the potential of injury or death to you.
Peter gives the example that here was this righteous person who suffered.
We should take heart in the fact that he was brought back to life.
The "for sins" part is theologically ambiguous and incidental to the overall theme.

God sent Jesus to pay this price for us(Romans 5:8).

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
(2011 NIV)
Yes, Jesus died for us.
The other part you just made up.

The sacrifice that Jesus made fulfilled the law(1 Peter 3:18).

OK, you already used that one and it doesn't say anything like that.

This sacrifice is all I need for salvation, if I am meant to do some sort of physical action the salvation no longer becomes a gift(Ephesians 2:8) since a gift is free.

Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--
(2011 NIV)
Grace is what allows us to join the congregation of God's people.
In the new covenant, that is the church, where in the old covenant, it was Israel.
The Israelites were "saved" when Moses raised his staff and God sent a wind to part the Red Sea so they could cross.
Then they were able to congregate at the foot of Mount Sinai.
Grace is our invitation to join the congregation of the saved at the foot of the cross.
The fact that there exists a church is due solely to the work of Jesus and not by human endeavor to make one on their own.
Jesus said that since John the Baptist, men have tried to take the kingdom by force.
Of course that will never work.
Faith is accepting the invitation.
"Saved" has taken on a connotation that means something other than what it originally meant in the Bible.
Pop-culture religion says that being saved is a guaranteed free ride to heaven.
Ephesians goes on to say that we were saved to a life of good works, and that happens in the here and now, not in heaven.

For example, the Greek translation of the OT known as the Septuagint (LXX) translated the expression as "his name is called." The LXX was translated by Jews in the 3rd century BC, and thus not affected by the Christian- Jewish debates over this issue. It is true that the LXX paraphrased the translation of the names in that verse, but the translation of the verb is the important thing here. The Jewish Tanach that I have translates the verse as follows: "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name shall be called "Wonderful counsellor of the mighty God, of the everlasting Father, of the Prince of peace". Obviously these Jewish translators had no problem rendering the verb as a passive. However, their insertion of the word "of" in several places is not justified by any rule of Hebrew grammar that I know, nor by the rendering of the verse in the Talmud (see below). (2) In the Talmud the verse is translated as follows: "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty, Judge, Everlasting, Father, Prince, and Peace. [Sanhedrin 94a]. Obviously this is an authentic Jewish translation. Therefore, those who have persuaded your friend otherwise have misled him.

www.answering-islam.org...

The words that we translate into those names are Pele-joez=Wonderful counselor, El Gibbor=Mighty God, and Abi-ad-sar-shalom=Prince of Peace.

Where is he called the Creator of all things?

Colossians 1
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

I mean there are tons of verses I could quote that attribute him either to creation or to the Father and the Father is attributed to creation therefore if he is the Father then he is the Creator....

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

The Jewish Tanach that I have translates the verse as follows: "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name shall be called "Wonderful counsellor of the mighty God, of the everlasting Father, of the Prince of peace".

Apparently this is something you copied from a forum post.
I don't think the person knows what they are talking about.
If you want to make a point, then you should look it up yourself in a Jewish translation that wouldn't be influenced by the King James version.

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

All things "in heaven and earth", so it is not saying that he is the creator of the universe.
All these things that are attributed to him are constructs of human psychology, the ideas of government and rulership.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Who?
I just quoted the verse in Hebrews in my earlier post on this thread that says it was God.