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Ukraine in Turmoil. Fears of East/West Schism. Russia Talking to East UA. Updates!

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posted on Feb, 24 2014 @ 10:00 AM
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baburak

3. Ukraine is poor country (and tomorrow when markets open, we will see if it's already bankrupt or not) and losing Russia and other countries from the trade union would be catastrophic.



Oh the old tune of russian propaganda. Ex Soviet Union countries cannot survive without mother Russia.





posted on Feb, 24 2014 @ 10:19 AM
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I am confused on statements Im reading about the Ukraine. Obviously I am no expert, but my understanding was that the Ukraine was a big deal agriculturally speaking, being the 3rd largest exporter of grains in the world. Size wise, I thought it was the largest in Europe, with the most fertile land in the area. I am confused as to why this area would be considered "poor". News here makes it out as being one of the more impoverished areas in the world.

Russia was able to offer them more money and aid than the EU. Is the EU just bent out of shape that they lost another deal to Russia? Or what? If my country needed help (which I think we all see coming) why wouldn't I want to take the better deal?

History shows that more wars were fought over food, money, and land than who likes who more.



posted on Feb, 24 2014 @ 11:39 AM
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mrsdudara
I am confused on statements Im reading about the Ukraine. Obviously I am no expert, but my understanding was that the Ukraine was a big deal agriculturally speaking, being the 3rd largest exporter of grains in the world. Size wise, I thought it was the largest in Europe, with the most fertile land in the area. I am confused as to why this area would be considered "poor". News here makes it out as being one of the more impoverished areas in the world.

Russia was able to offer them more money and aid than the EU. Is the EU just bent out of shape that they lost another deal to Russia? Or what? If my country needed help (which I think we all see coming) why wouldn't I want to take the better deal?

History shows that more wars were fought over food, money, and land than who likes who more.


The Ukraine was known as the breadbasket of the old Soviet Union.

As for who is bent out of shape that would be the Ukrainian people.



posted on Feb, 24 2014 @ 06:51 PM
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Ukraine's fugitive president was indicted for "mass murder" on Monday over the shooting of demonstrators as new leaders in Kiev sought urgent Western aid to make up for a loss of funding from Russia, which is angry at the overthrow of its ally.

Moscow said it would not deal with those who led an "armed mutiny" against Viktor Yanukovich, who was elected in 2010, and said it now feared for the lives of its citizens, notably in the Russian-speaking east and Crimea on the Black Sea.

Russia's top general agreed with NATO to maintain contact on a crisis that has raised fears of civil war and which U.N. chief Ban Ki-moon said called for an "inclusive political process" that "preserves Ukraine's ... territorial integrity".


www.reuters.com...



posted on Feb, 24 2014 @ 07:24 PM
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Im following various news updates on my Facebook newsfeed and as much as I hate to admit it, looks like things are starting to spiral out of control on all sides......

- US foreigh minister warns Russia to watch what they do in respect to troop movements
-Russian foreign minister warns USA, to watch itself and asks how can the USA support freedom of protest in Ukraine when it quashes it in its own country?

- Unconfirmed reports of Tanks building up in Eastern Europe and troops being put on alert.
-unconfirmed reports of troops from both sides amassing in southern regions

This has the potential to very quickly spiral out of control in the worst possible way.

I am putting differences aside for a minute, just to reiterate to all, that once the wheels of war start rolling (and I mean a REAL war, not Iraq or Afghanistan which were occupation/invasion type scenarios), the world will never be the same again.

It'll happen fast, before our eyes, many will be unable to comprehend what is taking place.

In the end.....we will sit back (if we have survived) and wonder if the glowing landscape and fields of embers was really worth it?



posted on Feb, 24 2014 @ 08:28 PM
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For the benefit of the historically deprived: The eastern, "ethnically Russian" areas will back the Russian appointed President. They will rally around him and declare the south-east to be the "true Ukraine." There will be a series of "fair elections" and plebiscite votes. The final result will be the secession of the south eastern provinces, followed by another round of "fair and unbiased" voting that results in a pro-Russian corridor down to the Crimea. There will then be a series of "free and fair" elections that will re-unite this corridor with Mother Russia. Any questions?



posted on Feb, 24 2014 @ 10:41 PM
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DJW001
.... back the Russian appointed President.


This is where the wheels in the scenario you just described came off the wagon.

When the President for Ukraine is appointed by Russia, nothing else in country related to that appointment can be taken seriously.

Second, I think people might be underestimating the East and how they feel towards all of this. Even the former Presidents own party has distanced themselves from his actions, stating he has betrayed the people of Ukraine.

The President, with a salary of 25k a year, has a Presidential house estimated upwards of 75 million to build. Private golf course, a zoo, lake......

Russia can withdraw their ambassador... They can make claims about the new government... In the end, I think the people are going to determine the outcome, regardless of what Russia / West does.

I think the Ukrainian people are done being jerked around by both.



posted on Feb, 25 2014 @ 06:19 AM
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DJW001

MessageforAll
reply to post by SLAYER69
 


I agree with you there, but what's happening in Ukraine didn't happen by/for the people to begin with, it is pretty obvious this is just another proxy.

Bot US and EU have much to gain from Ukraine joining the EU. I'm not sure what will come of this, but Russia will not let this one slide. Honestly, Ukraine is between a rock and hard place.

Sadly the US/EU is just as much the bad guy as Russia is.


You must be joking. The EU considers Ukraine to be another shabby ex-communist fixer-upper. Most Europeans fear that Ukraine will soon be a source of skilled immigrant labor that will work for lower wages. The EU is in no hurry to absorb another failing central European economy. On the other hand, Russia desperately needs Ukraine. No country but the former Soviet satellites have any interest in buying Russian consumer goods. Russia is also so paranoid of invasion that its primary defense has always been "depth." They do not feel safe unless they are surrounded by a lot of non-threatening land. Of course the main thing Russia needs is Sevastopol, it's only year round port. Russian imperialism has made that its primary goal since the days of Catherine the Great. Putin will settle for any compromise that allows him to keep the Crimea. He is going to do to Ukraine what his hero Stalin did to Poland.


the EU is in no hurry?
what kind of crap is this?

have you been watching EU politicians lately? everyone says EU needs to rush with bandwagons of money for poor little ukraine, probably because they're afraid that those thugs will go west if not given enough cash.

besides, current acting president of ukraine already said that separatist movements on crimea have to be stopped (and polish mass media outright lies about russians being a minority there, i guess it's the same in western media). seriously, they want to control crimea? with russian fleet and more than half of people living there being russians? they are borderline insane. russia will give them war they'll never forget if they'll try that.

also, no country but the former soviet satellites have any interest in buying russian consumer goods? do you really think they need to sell those at all? how about russian gas being sold to EU? to ukraine itself? they will keep buying it, no matter who's in charge, because they have no other choice.

also, you're contradicting yourself - first you talk about "depth" policy, then you suggest that putin will accept a compromise if he can keep crimea. i don't think that's the case. moscow will rather protect crimea and take over eastern part of ukraine - and people there will be happy they did - temporarily cutting ukraine in half, then they'll wait till the dust falls. western half of ukraine is poor and as of now, ruled by a bunch of right-wing fanatics that will fall as soon as people will realize they won't get any money.

and that's where EU comes in. either EU will throw #loads of cash at ukraine, or it'll end up with civil war. in case eastern half of ukraine will be secured by russia already, western half will beg russia to come in in very short time. putin knows this.

of course, EU won't allow that to happen, that's why they have to throw as much money, as fast as they can, at the problem, or ukraine will turn against EU, with civil war in the process.



posted on Feb, 25 2014 @ 06:27 AM
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jedi_hamster

DJW001

MessageforAll
reply to post by SLAYER69
 


I agree with you there, but what's happening in Ukraine didn't happen by/for the people to begin with, it is pretty obvious this is just another proxy.

Bot US and EU have much to gain from Ukraine joining the EU. I'm not sure what will come of this, but Russia will not let this one slide. Honestly, Ukraine is between a rock and hard place.

Sadly the US/EU is just as much the bad guy as Russia is.


You must be joking. The EU considers Ukraine to be another shabby ex-communist fixer-upper. Most Europeans fear that Ukraine will soon be a source of skilled immigrant labor that will work for lower wages. The EU is in no hurry to absorb another failing central European economy. On the other hand, Russia desperately needs Ukraine. No country but the former Soviet satellites have any interest in buying Russian consumer goods. Russia is also so paranoid of invasion that its primary defense has always been "depth." They do not feel safe unless they are surrounded by a lot of non-threatening land. Of course the main thing Russia needs is Sevastopol, it's only year round port. Russian imperialism has made that its primary goal since the days of Catherine the Great. Putin will settle for any compromise that allows him to keep the Crimea. He is going to do to Ukraine what his hero Stalin did to Poland.


the EU is in no hurry?
what kind of crap is this?

have you been watching EU politicians lately? everyone says EU needs to rush with bandwagons of money for poor little ukraine, probably because they're afraid that those thugs will go west if not given enough cash.

besides, current acting president of ukraine already said that separatist movements on crimea have to be stopped (and polish mass media outright lies about russians being a minority there, i guess it's the same in western media). seriously, they want to control crimea? with russian fleet and more than half of people living there being russians? they are borderline insane. russia will give them war they'll never forget if they'll try that.

also, no country but the former soviet satellites have any interest in buying russian consumer goods? do you really think they need to sell those at all? how about russian gas being sold to EU? to ukraine itself? they will keep buying it, no matter who's in charge, because they have no other choice.

also, you're contradicting yourself - first you talk about "depth" policy, then you suggest that putin will accept a compromise if he can keep crimea. i don't think that's the case. moscow will rather protect crimea and take over eastern part of ukraine - and people there will be happy they did - temporarily cutting ukraine in half, then they'll wait till the dust falls. western half of ukraine is poor and as of now, ruled by a bunch of right-wing fanatics that will fall as soon as people will realize they won't get any money.

and that's where EU comes in. either EU will throw #loads of cash at ukraine, or it'll end up with civil war. in case eastern half of ukraine will be secured by russia already, western half will beg russia to come in in very short time. putin knows this.

of course, EU won't allow that to happen, that's why they have to throw as much money, as fast as they can, at the problem, or ukraine will turn against EU, with civil war in the process.


So your opinion of Putin is so low that you don't think he's capable of annexing the Crimea through cunning diplomacy rather than force of arms? Perhaps you know him better than I do.



posted on Feb, 25 2014 @ 07:14 AM
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DJW001

jedi_hamster

DJW001

MessageforAll
reply to post by SLAYER69
 


I agree with you there, but what's happening in Ukraine didn't happen by/for the people to begin with, it is pretty obvious this is just another proxy.

Bot US and EU have much to gain from Ukraine joining the EU. I'm not sure what will come of this, but Russia will not let this one slide. Honestly, Ukraine is between a rock and hard place.

Sadly the US/EU is just as much the bad guy as Russia is.


You must be joking. The EU considers Ukraine to be another shabby ex-communist fixer-upper. Most Europeans fear that Ukraine will soon be a source of skilled immigrant labor that will work for lower wages. The EU is in no hurry to absorb another failing central European economy. On the other hand, Russia desperately needs Ukraine. No country but the former Soviet satellites have any interest in buying Russian consumer goods. Russia is also so paranoid of invasion that its primary defense has always been "depth." They do not feel safe unless they are surrounded by a lot of non-threatening land. Of course the main thing Russia needs is Sevastopol, it's only year round port. Russian imperialism has made that its primary goal since the days of Catherine the Great. Putin will settle for any compromise that allows him to keep the Crimea. He is going to do to Ukraine what his hero Stalin did to Poland.


the EU is in no hurry?
what kind of crap is this?

have you been watching EU politicians lately? everyone says EU needs to rush with bandwagons of money for poor little ukraine, probably because they're afraid that those thugs will go west if not given enough cash.

besides, current acting president of ukraine already said that separatist movements on crimea have to be stopped (and polish mass media outright lies about russians being a minority there, i guess it's the same in western media). seriously, they want to control crimea? with russian fleet and more than half of people living there being russians? they are borderline insane. russia will give them war they'll never forget if they'll try that.

also, no country but the former soviet satellites have any interest in buying russian consumer goods? do you really think they need to sell those at all? how about russian gas being sold to EU? to ukraine itself? they will keep buying it, no matter who's in charge, because they have no other choice.

also, you're contradicting yourself - first you talk about "depth" policy, then you suggest that putin will accept a compromise if he can keep crimea. i don't think that's the case. moscow will rather protect crimea and take over eastern part of ukraine - and people there will be happy they did - temporarily cutting ukraine in half, then they'll wait till the dust falls. western half of ukraine is poor and as of now, ruled by a bunch of right-wing fanatics that will fall as soon as people will realize they won't get any money.

and that's where EU comes in. either EU will throw #loads of cash at ukraine, or it'll end up with civil war. in case eastern half of ukraine will be secured by russia already, western half will beg russia to come in in very short time. putin knows this.

of course, EU won't allow that to happen, that's why they have to throw as much money, as fast as they can, at the problem, or ukraine will turn against EU, with civil war in the process.


So your opinion of Putin is so low that you don't think he's capable of annexing the Crimea through cunning diplomacy rather than force of arms? Perhaps you know him better than I do.


for diplomacy both sides need to have some reason in their heads.
those in charge in ukraine right now have nothing but bloodlust.



posted on Feb, 25 2014 @ 07:17 AM
link   

jedi_hamster

DJW001

jedi_hamster

DJW001

MessageforAll
reply to post by SLAYER69
 


I agree with you there, but what's happening in Ukraine didn't happen by/for the people to begin with, it is pretty obvious this is just another proxy.

Bot US and EU have much to gain from Ukraine joining the EU. I'm not sure what will come of this, but Russia will not let this one slide. Honestly, Ukraine is between a rock and hard place.

Sadly the US/EU is just as much the bad guy as Russia is.


You must be joking. The EU considers Ukraine to be another shabby ex-communist fixer-upper. Most Europeans fear that Ukraine will soon be a source of skilled immigrant labor that will work for lower wages. The EU is in no hurry to absorb another failing central European economy. On the other hand, Russia desperately needs Ukraine. No country but the former Soviet satellites have any interest in buying Russian consumer goods. Russia is also so paranoid of invasion that its primary defense has always been "depth." They do not feel safe unless they are surrounded by a lot of non-threatening land. Of course the main thing Russia needs is Sevastopol, it's only year round port. Russian imperialism has made that its primary goal since the days of Catherine the Great. Putin will settle for any compromise that allows him to keep the Crimea. He is going to do to Ukraine what his hero Stalin did to Poland.


the EU is in no hurry?
what kind of crap is this?

have you been watching EU politicians lately? everyone says EU needs to rush with bandwagons of money for poor little ukraine, probably because they're afraid that those thugs will go west if not given enough cash.

besides, current acting president of ukraine already said that separatist movements on crimea have to be stopped (and polish mass media outright lies about russians being a minority there, i guess it's the same in western media). seriously, they want to control crimea? with russian fleet and more than half of people living there being russians? they are borderline insane. russia will give them war they'll never forget if they'll try that.

also, no country but the former soviet satellites have any interest in buying russian consumer goods? do you really think they need to sell those at all? how about russian gas being sold to EU? to ukraine itself? they will keep buying it, no matter who's in charge, because they have no other choice.

also, you're contradicting yourself - first you talk about "depth" policy, then you suggest that putin will accept a compromise if he can keep crimea. i don't think that's the case. moscow will rather protect crimea and take over eastern part of ukraine - and people there will be happy they did - temporarily cutting ukraine in half, then they'll wait till the dust falls. western half of ukraine is poor and as of now, ruled by a bunch of right-wing fanatics that will fall as soon as people will realize they won't get any money.

and that's where EU comes in. either EU will throw #loads of cash at ukraine, or it'll end up with civil war. in case eastern half of ukraine will be secured by russia already, western half will beg russia to come in in very short time. putin knows this.

of course, EU won't allow that to happen, that's why they have to throw as much money, as fast as they can, at the problem, or ukraine will turn against EU, with civil war in the process.


So your opinion of Putin is so low that you don't think he's capable of annexing the Crimea through cunning diplomacy rather than force of arms? Perhaps you know him better than I do.


for diplomacy both sides need to have some reason in their heads.
those in charge in ukraine right now have nothing but bloodlust.


Are you actually in Kiev witnessing events for yourself, or are you simply repeating what the Russian media are claiming?



posted on Feb, 25 2014 @ 08:06 AM
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reply to post by jedi_hamster
 


The people who protested around the presidential palace had no "blood lust."

What a silly... stupid choice of words.

They were fired upon


(post by DJW001 removed for a manners violation)

posted on Feb, 25 2014 @ 08:25 AM
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reply to post by jedi_hamster
 


You might want to consider the following. Russia invaded Georgia. Georgia only has about 100 tanks. Ukraine has about 4,000. Do you really think that Putin is stupid enough to run the risk of military defeat?

www.globalfirepower.com...



posted on Feb, 25 2014 @ 05:05 PM
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Keep this on the topic and off each other please!



posted on Feb, 25 2014 @ 05:57 PM
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Seems that talk of war could be premature!

Link



Meanwhile, Russia has also tried to lower the temperature. Sergei Lavrov, the Russian foreign minister, "confirmed" Moscow's "policy of non-interference in the internal affairs of Ukraine" on Tuesday.
Mr Lavrov said: "We are using our contacts with the various political forces at play in Ukraine in order to calm the situation down."
He added that it was "dangerous and counter-productive to try to force upon Ukraine a choice on the principle of 'you are either with us or against us'." Mr Lavrov said: "We want Ukraine to be part of the European family in every sense of the word".



posted on Feb, 25 2014 @ 06:03 PM
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reply to post by rigel4
 


The country is divided, this is a Russian tactic for support ,If I havn't missed anyhthing Ukraine has to choose, fight together or fall apart .
edit on 25-2-2014 by all2human because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 25 2014 @ 06:07 PM
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reply to post by all2human
 


I think you're correct in my honest opinion.. Just thought that common sense
might be making a rare appearance.

The situation is fluid and in my opinion very very dangerous.

If there are too many wrong turns here, Europe could end up in another massive war.

As usual our lives are in "Their" hands.



posted on Feb, 25 2014 @ 06:11 PM
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reply to post by rigel4
 

No guarantee but massive war no,Yugoslavia probably, be it two weeks ,months or years from now.
edit on 25-2-2014 by all2human because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 28 2014 @ 06:28 AM
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rigel4
Seems that talk of war could be premature!

Link



Meanwhile, Russia has also tried to lower the temperature. Sergei Lavrov, the Russian foreign minister, "confirmed" Moscow's "policy of non-interference in the internal affairs of Ukraine" on Tuesday.
Mr Lavrov said: "We are using our contacts with the various political forces at play in Ukraine in order to calm the situation down."
He added that it was "dangerous and counter-productive to try to force upon Ukraine a choice on the principle of 'you are either with us or against us'." Mr Lavrov said: "We want Ukraine to be part of the European family in every sense of the word".


of course they want. ukraine will be taking cash from the EU (which will pay to avoid the risk of hell scenario of civil war in ukraine), while ukraine will keep spending that cash on gas bought from russia. epic win.

ukraine is screwed, no matter how you look at it, and moscow is aware of that. make no mistake thought, they will protect their interests in the region (crimea) when ukrainian thugs will cross the line. all that diplomacy talk just means 'we won't be bad guys, as long as you know your place'.


DJW001
reply to post by jedi_hamster
 


You might want to consider the following. Russia invaded Georgia. Georgia only has about 100 tanks. Ukraine has about 4,000. Do you really think that Putin is stupid enough to run the risk of military defeat?

www.globalfirepower.com...


afaik, russia has quite a military force in crimea. that's one thing.
second thing, and perhaps the most important, is the will of ukrainian military to follow the orders of those thugs that took over the government. acting president of the ukraine dismissed an admiral that was in charge of the ukrainian army. that, of course, can have possibly nothing to do with it, right?

also, polish media report that ukraine has 730 tanks in active service, compared to 4200 in case of russia. overall, they say that russia has overwhelming advantage. it goes in line with repeating the ramblings of ukraine about 'unacceptable takeover of the belbek airport' - that airport is a military airport and BELONGS to russia. ramblings are all they can do though, it seems they start to realize there's nothing that will protect them when they piss off russia too much - and they've started that already, because i doubt the pro-ukrainian protests in sevastopol have no backing from them - most people there are pro-russian though.

also, 7 russian military helicopters have crossed ukrainian airspace - it's a violation of a treaty between them, which allows only 3 of those at a time. do you still think russia gives a damn about ukrainian military?

edit: make that over 10.


sy.gunson
reply to post by jedi_hamster
 


The people who protested around the presidential palace had no "blood lust."

What a silly... stupid choice of words.

They were fired upon



yes. with rubber bullets.
their response was using regular ammo and molotovs to kill police officers.

you call that no bloodlust?
edit on 28-2-2014 by jedi_hamster because: (no reason given)



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