America: Be Ashamed

reply to post by Snarl


There are much greater things for which to be ashamed.

That said, I do think that the photo was in poor taste and showed a genuine lack of respect. I don't believe that these kids knew this picture would be plastered all over social media, but that is something to be aware of at all times in this day and age.

As a former Marine, I carry a great deal of respect and honor for all those that have sacrificed their lives in uniform.

I agree with the first part. I don’t think it’s ever appropriate to go round laughing in any dedicated tomb or memorial military or Civilian. And I think the marine did his job in a firm but pretty respectful way.


But as for individual funerals and services? Well its up to the poor sod in the coffin how he/she wants to be remembered.

tencap77
according to the citizens of the United States it's OK to have an elected "official" who threw his military decorations on the White House lawn to protest the Vietnam War. (Nice job Kerry, you moron, what's the matter, couldn't find some dog doo laying around?

I think that probably was the most honest and respectable thing hes done.

He got those decorations in an immoral and pointless war that Americans (Especially unwilling conscripts) should NEVER have been sacrificed for. Returning them to me showed courage and morality and yeah she should have thrown dog crap on the white house lawn too! He took his anger to the right place, the scumbag policians . Abusing returning Vietnam vets disgraceful but Abusing the politicians and establishment that caused such a pointless war? 100% justified!

Shame Kerry turned into a scumbag warmongering politician himself

reply to post by crazyewok

I think that probably was the most honest and respectable thing hes done.

While you are busy respecting that scumbag's honesty....keep in mind, those were NOT HIS medals. He didn't correct the record at the time and let everyone ASSuME they were his. They belonged to another soldier who gave them to him for that purpose...and he ran with it like the politician he is today and was back then. After all, Kerry is the man reported to have been taking notes for a book, while still *IN* Vietnam.

He's the very picture of everything wrong with this nation today, and really, no better example comes to mind at that level of official position.

@ Snarl

I'm normally with ya on things...but not on this. Not even remotely close. Who were the people in the photo and the Honor Guard Unit? Who was the casualty in the casket..assuming that wasn't staged with an empty one for the photo? Did they know him? Perhaps had talked before he became a casualty to know the one lost wanted people to celebrate his life and not mourn. I've heard that precise sentiment from several people in my life ...and that photo is precisely what they have in mind to want to see friends and family doing ...not crying and in bottomless pits of despair or grief.

Even if that isn't the case... The Tomb Of The Unknown is a WHOLE different case and respect isn't asked, it's demanded. As it absolutely should be. I'm glad to see at least a few traditions are as they always have been, and some lines aren't drawn in pencil these days.

However, if Vets or people serving today find it necessary to joke and poke a bit so they can avoid going crazy and getting a mental health discharge from the sheer reality they deal with every day, then so be it. Of all the people, they've earned that right beyond what anyone has the right to challenge in some casual way.

That's my opinion, anyway.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Well that 100% different. If they were not his medals then no that a pretty crappy thing to do. In fact it horrendous.

I retract my last statement. Hes a through and through scumbag. Thanks for pointing that detail out.

reply to post by crazyewok


I had a feeling you would, and I was hoping it was simple misunderstanding. Don't feel bad tho...not one little bit. You're not the only one in the State of Confusion for that topic, and looking for a train back out. lol.... Even such conservative bastions of news as ABC (/sarcasm) couldn't get this one straight for what happened, vs. which version of what has been said happened, actually took place.

Did Kerry Discard Vietnam Medals?

Makes for interesting reading, huh? This is what I mean sometimes when I say I've absolutely moved beyond politics by party, but scum as defined within each individual is absolutely fair game. They make their own beds, IMO.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Yup you were right, your starting to work out how I tick

I hate it when politicians flip flop and muddy the truth like that. though shouldn’t be surprised really.....

Not being American I’m not going to be keyed up on every little detail of your politicians lives BUT it seems Kerry has done a number on the truth and pulled some wool over a lot of people’s eyes.

Wrabbit2000
@ Snarl
I'm normally with ya on things...but not on this. Not even remotely close.

I never expect half the public to get my point. If you're normally of a like mind ... good on you. If you're missing the point (like anyone else who did) ... how can I fault you if I lack the words to adequately explain? I may not understand everything you describe in the business of trucking ... and I hope that's okay too.

I've earned the right to be interred in Arlington National Cemetery. I hope to God none of the sleaze-bags in the OP's picture are there. It's not like the dead have an option of choosing the members of their funeral detail. My friends will celebrate my life in their way. I highly doubt anyone I know will be disrespectful during the burial service. I'm pretty sure my son, who has himself served three combat tours, will be there taking names. I raised him right, we had a lengthy discussion about this, and as a fellow combat veteran, is of a like mind. That's good enough for me.

-Cheers

reply to post by Snarl


Fair enough on that... We each view death and how it should be treated and respected in VERY different ways. That's as simple as it gets and what it comes down to. I've never..ever..understood the full blown celebration parties some communities throw for 'wakes' in memory of the dead and often on the same day as burial. Now, I say I don't understand it, but what I may better say is I can't mentally picture myself behaving that way for the death of someone I loved. Many do tho...and so it is for them to see it that way.

Same for those who see death and every aspect of it as a solemn and serious affair where so much as a cracked smile to a fond memory is out of line and wildly inappropriate.

One thing I'd note though...that photo isn't a burial service, graveside event or apparently, in any way or form connected to what family or friends outside that photo would have seen or ever been aware of. Nonsense at graveside would be cause to throw them INTO the grave after (or before, perhaps) the very heavy casket is lowered into a final place of honor. Showing a different way of expressing things far from family who would take it VERY differently seems a matter which, generally, is none of our business, really.

Still tho... Who are those in the photo, and do we know with certainty it was even an actual casualty in the casket being photographed or a studio scene staged for the image?

do we know with certainty it was even an actual casualty in the casket being photographed

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Take a moment and go back to what I had said earlier in this post. I had performed more than my fair share of these ceremonies.

reply to post by 19KTankCommander


Thank you and I had actually missed your note at the bottom of the last page.

I'm glad you directed me back to it. Well put, all around. I still don't know precisely who or what connection the Navy Captain had, who handed me the flag a few years ago at my fathers funeral in our National Cemetery. I arranged and planned everything except the 3 man detail from the Navy who handled the Military side of the ceremonies. Even the 21 gun salute was a volunteer thing I had to help set up..but the Officers I didn't know and still don't. I could see it was as hard for him as it was for me though. I guess I was a little fixated on the Trident he was wearing and where the trio came from.

I've only been in the middle of the one military funeral for experience to judge by, and I was the son, of course...so hardly a day I could observe without passion. Still, I can only imagine how much it wears and tears on those men who handle the services on a regular or daily basis. That has to be one job a person never gets used to or finds a way to fully compartmentalize.

Having been on a military honor guard, I'm honestly not that offended by this pic. Mainly, because I see plenty to tell me that these guys are probably goofing off during rehearsals. Posting it to social media is obviously a dumb move.

I was in the Army in the mid 90's and did funeral detail as both a pall bearer and firing detail a couple of times. It was part of a host of other duties that would be tasked out to a battalion during its month of Post Support. The battalion would train a firing and pall bearer detail to send to funerals of service members over a pretty wide geographic area for a month or so. We did funerals from North of Charleston SC damn near to Miami, FL, and west into Alabama. This was from a Post on the Georgia Coast. You spend hours and hours practicing your part of the service. You only get one chance to do it right when it's for real and you are expected by the family, your superiors, and your peers to do it perfectly. Folding the flag in the proper shape with six + sets of hands touching it is much harder than anyone who has never done it would appreciate, and have a smooth an unified shot by the firing detail isn't as easy as the units that do stuff like that for a living (like the Old Guard in DC) make it look. Practicing in the South Georgia heat is a tedious and monotonous duty, and made for some very long days. I've seen more than a few soldiers fall out during a ceremony in high heat and humidity.

How do I know they are just goofing off on a break during rehearsal? First and foremost the uniform. That's the ACU ( i think, they where BDU's in my time), which is the everyday uniform for most duties. At an actual funeral they would be in Class A uniform which is what the honor guard soldier is wearing. From someone on the outside looking in, it seems like the ACU is acceptable wear for things that when I was in you would have needed to be in Class A or B uniform nowadays, but I guarantee Funeral Detail is not one. It would however be appropriate as the uniform to be worn while rehearsing. There will of course be a Full Dress Rehearsal and Inspection by either a Command Sergeant Major, XO, or Battalion Commander before the detail is ready to go a ceremony.

I did the detail twice (about two months worth) in my time at Ft. Stewart. The heat, weight of the deceased and casket, and the path from the hearse to the grave were the biggest worries and complications during a ceremony. Most of the time it was just get out of the van/bus do the ceremony get back on the bus and go home, but I have this really fond memory of a flawless ceremony a little south of Jacksonville for a retired Colonel who had many children, nephews/nieces, and grandchildren in all branches of the military. The family insisted that we come to the wake after the ceremony, and proceeded to get almost everyone but the bus driver blistering drunk. The NCOIC and OIC for the detail were more than a little worried about it especially when called into the Battalion Commanders office the day after, only to be told that since their were no funerals to go to that day to give the entire detail the day off. A fairly high ranking member of the family had called our Post Commander and personally thanked him for our conduct both during and after the ceremony.

There was no social media and cell phones with cameras or recorders during that time, and I'm kinda glad. After practicing a monotonous and boring detail for 8 hours straight; or an 8 hour ride followed by a ceremony that was in pouring rain or oppressive heat while toting a 300 lb corpse in 500lb casket 300 yards from hearse to grave, it wasn't that uncommon for someone to spout off an uncouth joke or observation once everyone was back in the bus.

reply to post by jefwane


Star for you buddy it was people like you that buried so many of my friends thank you for KEEPING THE HONOR


SNARL

Sorry in my first post if I came out as condemning towards you, I usually take interest in what you have to say and your perspective but I heavily disagree with the "shame" aspect of this. Don't be a Foeing me over that please

reply to post by Brotherman

Sorry in my first post if I came out as condemning towards you, I usually take interest in what you have to say and your perspective but I heavily disagree with the "shame" aspect of this. Don't be a Foeing me over that please.

We're good. Anywhere there's a group of folks gathered there will be a variety of opinion. I was not surprised at all by the vitriolic responses associated with some of the members.

ATS has transformed from what it was when I first started following along. It's far better being a 'posting member' for perspective. I'll admit I am more amused than upset by the keyboard commandos who gang up on an OP at the outset. I try not to belabor a point and you've beat me to it on more than one occasion. Thanks for sticking with the thread (and speaking your mind) as it developed.

I truly appreciate the thoughts detailed here regardless of contrast, the mudslinging ... not so much. I'm still learning.

reply to post by Snarl


I am always along for the ride, honestly I can't agree so much on this thread with you as much as I want to. I don't know where you been or what you done or any of that, it doesn't or at least should not matter much on ats. I will say I saw a soldier as exhausted as this marine, probably close to defeated. No matter what we do, its never enough as long as "they" have their cheap thrills and cake.

reply to post by Nyiah


That's your personal preference as it is mine. I dislike somber funerals as well.
Be that as it may the military runs on tradition, doing send ups like this is not part of that tradition.
A big part of what is ruining our armed forces now is the destruction of those
traditions.
The tomb of the unknown represents tens of thousands of men who fought for their country and have no proper burial of their own.
If those visitors can't shut up they should leave.
The fact someone needed to tell them to shut up shows a great lack of respect and understanding of our basic institutions - this is something I find shameful. Public schools used to teach us these things in civics or history.

I can respect the soldier while disagreeing with the wars as I have since Vietnam.
It's their blood that's paid for my right to be critical.
I never forget that fact.

reply to post by Snarl


for me...it isn't about somber (or not) or some fallen friend wanting to be remembered in a certain way.

Military service is about dedication, attention to detail, tradition and respect.

A funeral is where even the lowest grunt is given the highest military respect.

If joking around and being foolish is a way of paying respect to a fallen friend.....see if it works on your commanding officer. Walk into his office in full drag and dance around on his desk making "gang" signs. I am sure he will find it as funny as the OP finds military people making light of service members deaths in anyway.

I don't see a difference in whether or not they are honor guard, if it is a real or practice casket or if they are on or off duty. Attention to detail, tradition and respect is to be given to fallen soldiers not just now but those in the past as well.

Why do military people take their covers off when they walk into buildings again? Why do military people salute each other? Why do military people give and receive medals and honors?

The same reason we treat all military deaths with a certain tradition and attention to detail........RESPECT

however.....not sure if America needs to feel shame anymore than a kid needs to feel shame for laughing during a church service.....they don't know any better. Service men and women should though. I think the guard at the Unknown Soldier handled the people perfectly.....just like a parent scolding a kid......

reply to post by Snarl


Of all the things that some military men and women have done while wearing the uniform and this one deserves an outrageous award?

I think not. It's tacky, but definitely not worthy of this level of attention...by anyone!

reply to post by Snarl


Ohhh please....I can think of some legitimate reasons to be ashamed and this isn't one of them...how about Honey booboo or the New Jersey House Wives..

Not all people grieve the same way, if that was a squad buddy, maybe it was a pact to be happy and not be upset over it. If thats the case, I dont see the issue.
Thats like these 2 marines, do you find this wrong the way theyre celebrating a bro's life?