Men Who Vandalized Great Pyramid To Prove 'Theory' Face Charges

reply to post by Blackmarketeer


Hey there blackmarketeer,

You mentioned zoological evidence, yes millions of fish bones have been found in the workers "cafeteria"areas. The number of fish bond could only have been consumed by thousands of people. In the same area hundreds of bread baking ovens have been found along with the "meat market", where the remains of thousands of goats and cattle have been uncovered along with the breweries where vast quantities if beer were brewed.
Add to this the tombs of foremen who led the work gangs. There are records of payroll and injuries among the workers. These records clearly state that the were working on the pharoes tomb.
Also you mention lithics, the record of egyptian lithics goes back 20 k years and is well dated by obsidian hydration.
Also to all you who think the pyramid is thousands of years older, how do you explain the COPPER handles on the hidden door , within the passages in the pyramid. Those doors could only have been placed during the construction of said pyramid. How do you explain the fact that somehow these super advanced ancient people were able to smelt and cast copper , but yet somehow seemed not to use metal for everyday purposes and used chipped stone tools for thousand of years after.
The amateurs point to the fact that there is a dating incongruity within Egyptology, the serious researchers know this , that Egyptian chronology is a somewhat moveing target, as there are no neighbouring contemporary cultures to use as a benchmark for early Egypt.
The chronology is so ephemeral that a 400-600 year discrepancy is well withhin the range of what is known.

reply to post by punkinworks10


There's even more specific information, a "smoking gun" if you will, that relates the GP to Khufu; the "earliest known papyrii", circa 2,500 BC, these were discovered by Pierre Tallet and the French Institute of Archaeological Studies (IFAO) between 2011 and 2013.

The Earliest Known Egyptian Papyri

"The majority of these documents date to the 27th year of Khufu's reign and describe how the central administration sent food and supplies to Egyptian travelers. One document is of special interest: the diary of Merrer, an official involved in the building of the Great Pyramid of Khufu. Using the diary, researchers were able to reconstruct three months of his life, providing new insight everyday lives of people of the Fourth Dynasty.The papyri are the oldest ever found in Egypt" (Wikipedia article on Wadi al-Jarf, accessed 04-25-2013)

Every time there is a new discovery like this it only further corroborates the GP as a 4th Dynasty construction.

Slayer, as always, great post. It's been stated before but I will reiterate, your threads are the highlight of ATS.

Now, after reading through every reply here, I have to say that Blackmarketeer has thoroughly argued his point with more than sufficient evidence to answer your question. It seems that you are missing his answer entirely. the "core" of the pyramid that has been referenced is just that, the core. You have asked repeatedly why the heart of the pyramid hasn't been carbon-dated without realizing that this is the "core" that is being discussed in the quoted material.

Just like modern architecture, the great pyramid was built from the inside out. Blackmarketeer has been trying to explain to you that the inside of the pyramid is the core from where the organic material was extracted and tested. If I can understand what you are arguing, I believe it would be like saying the wooden framing of a modern house is newer than the drywall that lines that frame and what Blackmarketeer is trying to get you to see is that the core that has already been tested is the same as the framing on our modern house. But you are wanting the drywall to be tested, yes?

You both have provided a nice volley, but it looks as though Blackmarketeer has scored the final point. No disrespect to either side as this has been one of the more stimulating discussions on this as-of-late horribly shallow forum.

reply to post by Blackmarketeer


That have been covered in detail in other threads. And BTW you haven't answered his questions yet.

There is a huge part of our origins /true theirstory , missing , lost,withheld .i would like to think some day we will know the truth that everyone feels in their gut, we are not who we where told we are. If a grate distruction comes to this planet and after that event hundreds of thousands of years later or more the inhabitants start finding traces of our failings , will the deception and lie telling start again ...our pre theirstory is as most of us imagined I would think

What a curious existence we live. The truth about the pyramids holds the truth to our past. In order for the control system to work we mustn't know who we really are and why. When you begin to look at the bigger picture and see a pattern emerging its not by coincidence. Whatever happened to bring about this reality must have been quite epic to achieve the level of deception that has been achieved.

When I try to imagine what it could be I am always drawn to one thought. As above, so below. The micro and the macro. I think of America, the beacon of "freedom" founded by a group of ultra rich slave owners. They themselves attempting to escape religious persecution. When I was a boy in school first learning about our history I was genuinely shocked and aghast that our history was nothing more than a series of wars along a timeline. That was genuinely the last thing I had expected to learn, not because I was raised in a loving home (far from it), it was because regardless of my limited experience I knew the good in me.

Our existence is built from a foundation of greed, blood and competition. We are brainwashed into thinking these ideals are neccesary because if we don't someone else will. All of this holds together through a grand deception that seems to have started prediluvian or perhaps immediately thereafter. If we were to discover who we really were the facade would crumble. Perhaps that's even the point, better to deceive than to use force because it's less resources and energy spent after all.

No, I feel if the true age of the pyramid becomes known to all, it's because the entire control system collapses.

Blackmarketeer
reply to post by buster2010

 

It wasn't "trash", but the organic material comprising the gypsum mortar, used throughout the pyramid. The process of selecting the samples is described in the PDF. They took hundreds of samples from a wide area of the pyramid.

The stone of the pyramid itself cannot be tested. But the mortar can. In one of the links I posted earlier was another reference Lehner made, of the pottery shards also found, broken and ground up and mixed in with all the detritus packed into the gaps of the core stones. Those pottery shards also date to the 4th Dynasty, stylistically and with C14 testing.

Couple that with the Khufu cartouche buried with in the relieving chamber at the heart of the pyramid, it forms the basis for dating it with a high degree of certainty.

Carbon dating is not the only means of establishing a date for the GP. Other disciplines that connect the GP to the 4th dynasty include:

• stratigraphy: the study of archaeological layers
  
• archaeobotany: seeds/plant remains amongst the ruins
  
• osteoarchaeology: human remains found among the worker villages/cemetaries
  
• zooarchaeology: animal remains found among the worker villages/cemetaries
  
• ceramics: pottery shards found within the pyramid itself, including those found deep within the interstitial spaces of the core packing stones
  
• epigraphy: inscriptions, such as Khufu's cartouche
  
• lithics (intentionally chipped stone, stone tools)

These were the disciplines cited by Lehner in the AERA study linked to above. So it isn't some arbitrary random conclusion they are making when they say the GP is from the 4th Dynasty of the Old Kingdom.


The point of all this radiocarbon drama is that the OP demanded to see a study of carbon dating of the Great Pyramid. It seemed clear from his tone that he did not believe such a study existed.

edit on 21-2-2014 by Blackmarketeer because: (no reason given)

edit on 22-2-2014 by Blackmarketeer because: (no reason given)

What part of the word repaired do you not understand? Everything that you say could have just as easily happened during the repair. It's hard to believe that all of this trash was left behind after the pyramid was first built but during a rebuild material is always left behind. Not to mention the materials they tested is used to make bricks not the limestone that was used in the building of the pyramid.

reply to post by Harte


My only issue with 'once and for all' on any subject, let alone this one, is that science doesn't stop and old theories are constantly being re-addressed.

The only time 'once and for all' is brought up is when someone is more interested in being right, rather than being happy to find out if they are potentially wrong on the way to the truth.

Surely a more accurate date could be attained by samples from the the fashion rings within the shafts? As they were put in place at the time of construction? A very accurate carbon date due to the fact they would have been cast, fired, forged and cemented into the slabs of rock... Quite simple, but then it is the question of...The Desire To Know The Truth pitted against The Desire To Keep It Secret?
From the Egyptian point of view after watching and studying years of Egyptology... it is a matter of national pride to Egypt that they and no one else built these wonders of the world and that is where for me the first and main obstruction lies. Ego is such a backward and debilitating human trait.

reply to post by buster2010

What part of the word repaired do you not understand? Everything that you say could have just as easily happened during the repair. It's hard to believe that all of this trash was left behind after the pyramid was first built but during a rebuild material is always left behind. Not to mention the materials they tested is used to make bricks not the limestone that was used in the building of the pyramid.

First - if you are going to hypothesize the GP was a "repair job" of an older structure, then WHERE IS THAT EVIDENCE?

A hypothesis fits the evidence, not the other way around.

We HAVE EVIDENCE the GP was built during the Old Kingdom. We have NO EVIDENCE of a "pre-existing structure" being repaired only. Unless you want to count the flawed research of Zecharia Sitchin.

If the GP was built earlier, say 10,000 BC as some here have claimed, or 20,000 BC as Scott C. alludes, then where is the evidence of an occupied site from that time frame? Where are THOSE worker villages? Where are the tools, the bread ovens, the quarries, the ramps, where is any of that? Where are the remains of the deceased, who died working the pyramid, where are the remains of the dead animals?

We can find the evidence of occupied human settlements dating back hundreds of thousands of years, based on the tiniest scraps of fire pits or bone piles. Yet in Egypt...?

You have tens of thousands of workers occupying a site for many years, you WILL LEAVE EVIDENCE BEHIND.

Everything found inside and outside the Great Pyramid comes from the Old Kingdom.

Stratigraphy has pulled apart the Giza plateau, layer by layer, it has only found evidence to support the construction of the GP during the Old Kingdom.


Now about that "flawed research" of Sitchin:
Kmt-sesh on "Unexplained Mysteries" goes into great details about the folly of Sitchin's claims regarding the "Inventory Stela" (it actually dates to the Early New Kingdom, and was carved centuries after Khufu died)
Sitchin's Folly: The Inventory Stela

We have Vyse's discovery of the relieving chambers, and workmen graffiti in an inaccessible location where only the original builders could have placed them. Early doubts about their veracity among Egyptologists was later resolved, and confirmed by scholars. Then along comes Sitchin, once again, reviving a settled argument with flawed research and egregious claims. His entire book franchise rests of undermining the workmen cartouche, because it's very existence proves his "theories" as pure fantasies. However, "Atlantean fantasists" have embraced Sitchin's claims as well, as their "theories" have as much riding on disproving Vyse's discovery as well.

Other flawed notions, touted by AA or Atlantean fantasists:

"The pyramid could not have been built in 20 years..."

For the record, not even Egyptologists can confirm the actual length Khufu ruled. The Papyrii above state "during the 27th year of Khufu's rule." Herodotus and Manetho give 50 to 63 years for his rule, respectively. Based on rock inscriptions found in Dakhla oasis, "Khufu's highest known and certain preserved date is the Year after the 13th cattle count -or Year 27- of his reign." Fantasists love to downplay the length of time Khufu ruled, to make it seem all the more impossible the pyramid was "built in only 20 years."

There are indeed legitimate questions the field of Egyptology has about the GP and how it was used, but it's pure fantasy to claim it dates to stone age or beyond, before there was even an Egypt to build it.

Carbon dating the GP has proven it is a 2nd millennium construct. You can't keep rejecting test results, simply because they don't fit into a pre-conceived fantasy.

More people need to have the gusto to search for answers. If they end up with the same conclusions then at least THEY did the testing and found out themselves.

Also, to accuse them of vandalism is blasphemous. If taking a sample is vandalizing then any archeologist who has seemingly trespassed in burial tombs should be accused of the same thing. This culture believed in the after life to such an extent that I don't think dragging their bones and all their belongings out for the world to see would make them happy.

Modern day grave robbers, all in the name of history.

reply to post by SLAYER69


The circumstances around the discovery of the red markings, and inconsistencies in the names and script used put a huge question mark over the question of their authenticity (imo the possibility that they are authentic is zero) - however, I would not trust so called 'authorities' to date these correctly, and they resisted even the idea of doing dating.

I would be interested to find out what the result was of the analysis done by these guys - that is the true story here imo - not whether they are being arrested, charged or whatever - if the so called authorities do not publicly check and verify these marks, then I support people doing this independently - I do not trust the authorities AT ALL.

If the narrative regarding the Annunaki is in fact the correct version of ancient history - this means the possibility of advanced technology and advanced beings on earth - right now. Access to this knowledge of course will be monopolized by the keepers of secrets - those who control media, finance and politics.

Blackmarketeer
reply to post by buster2010

 

We can find the evidence of occupied human settlements dating back hundreds of thousands of years, based on the tiniest scraps of fire pits or bone piles. Yet in Egypt...?

You have tens of thousands of workers occupying a site for many years, you WILL LEAVE EVIDENCE BEHIND.

Everything found inside and outside the Great Pyramid comes from the Old Kingdom.

Carbon dating the GP has proven it is a 2nd millennium construct. You can't keep rejecting test results, simply because they don't fit into a pre-conceived fantasy.

edit on 22-2-2014 by Blackmarketeer because: (no reason given)

Im just responding to your post in general - I dont hypothesize any 'repair' scenario.

If we assume that the Annunaki narrative is valid, then the claim is that the Annuaki - not humans built the great pyramid (and the other two associated with it).

The Annunaki could have built the Great Pyramid themselves, in fact it is claimed that they did. This means no human workers or animals or anything - as the Annunaki are immortal and could easily have been commuting to the site from thousands of miles away. Additionally it is claimed that the Annunaki raised Puma Punku in a single night (this claim is made by modern descendents, according to their mythology) - while this seems hyperbole, we can assume that their building capacity was vastly superior to human beings - and that the pyramids might have been built in a period of weeks or months.


Carbon dating does not work on stone, so regardless of what kind of organic material discovered and carbon dated - it cannot identify a date of a stone building. If there were organic materials present in the mortar, which were not destroyed by contact with the lime for thousands of years - then Sitchins work suggests a vast nuclear explosion on the nearby Sinai peninsula around 1500BC. The creation and subsequent blanketing of the area in high C14 fallout would cause radiocarbon dating to under estimate the age of material in this region.

Sitchin's work is highly unlikely to be perfect, in fact there are many parts which I disagree with - however the over all narrative (ancient astronauts came to earth, built things,created human beings etc) is compelling and is well supported by a host of evidence.

punkinworks10
reply to post by Blackmarketeer

 

Those doors could only have been placed during the construction of said pyramid. How do you explain the fact that somehow these super advanced ancient people were able to smelt and cast copper , but yet somehow seemed not to use metal for everyday purposes and used chipped stone tools for thousand of years after.

The postulate of the Annunaki origin of the pyramids, is that they were built by the Annunaki - not by humans. Humans had limited knowledge - as it was given to them by the Annunaki.

If the pyramids were built on or around 10,500BC - this was before humans had been given any kind of civilization - at that time only a handful of human beings were descended from Atra-Hasis (Noah). Records from the Sumarian scripts describe humans as naked and eating grass like sheep - that was around the time the pyramids were built.

The process of creating human beings did not occur all at one time 230,000 yrs ago - it was done off and on as required - creating a variety of races based on the same stock - not all of which were civilized.

Spruce
Scientists can't stand it when you question the status quo. Ask any graduate student.

And graduate students make their mark by changing the status quo. Ask any scientist.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


Is this a joke? Status quo is not changing. New students are born into the same old paradigms. And they stay true to the paradigms. Nothing changes.

Good

neo96
reply to post by Spruce

 

I am not the enemy. All I'm saying is that Egyptian culture is notoriously corrupt. We cannot take their word for it regarding the age of the GP, or on many other things for that matter.Text

Honestly I think the evidence that showed the proof of who built what is long gone.

The original casing of the pyramid. That was taken centuries ago.

The point is - the casing was there.

If Khufu replaced casing stones (an idea that Slayer clings to in order that he might keep his idea of a much older GP alive,) the mortar between the stones that we see today, which were all covered by the casing stones, would not have been affected.

The stones we see today on the outside would not have been placed in any "refurbishment" made by Khufu. There would be no need for that, since they would have been covered by the casing stones anyway.

Of course, we can't admit to this truth, can we? Because, if we do, then we must admit that the GP is 4th Dynasty, and that is utterly unacceptable around these parts, it seems, regardless of the evidence.

Harte

I wonder if anything else has come from the odd findings from those two labs about fluctuating decay rates of certain elements possibly due to Sun activity?

It made some news a year or two back and then nothing... but some labs saw differing rates in radioactive decay that were previously thought to be unchanging... and the speculation ran to questioning carbon-14 dating techniques.

It could've since been debunked and how they tied it to the sun I never quite understood ...except to say the varying decay rates coincided with sun weather... but one of the labs was tied to a Uni in perhaps Indiana?

Anyway, more fuel for the dying fire regarding questionable dating... heh.

Fun thread, btw. Whether or not the 'Mids are 5000 or 10,000 years old, they do stick out from history's mists.

Beavers
reply to post by Harte

 

My only issue with 'once and for all' on any subject, let alone this one, is that science doesn't stop and old theories are constantly being re-addressed.

You point is well made, however, the pyramid is a fact, not a scientific model.

The fact is, the pyramid was constructed by some culture, and over a specific time period.

What you suggest is that it is impossible for us to arrive at the culture or the time period. I would disagree.

Science certainly re-addresses theories on a constant basis. But these theories are predictive models. They are not attempts to establish fact. In science, established fact has another name - data.

In the case of the GP, the theoretical model involves the "why" of the GP, not the when or the by whom. The latter two are data.

BeaversThe only time 'once and for all' is brought up is when someone is more interested in being right, rather than being happy to find out if they are potentially wrong on the way to the truth.

In the context that Slayer used this phrase, it means that the ignorant would stop questioning this date if only the tiny sample of paint (which, apparently, doesn't even exist,) was C14 dated to the Old Kingdom.

Obviously, with the several dating methods already having been used (including the very same method Slayer is asking for,) and the date still questioned by people that simply don't know any better, I would predict that there would still be no "once and for all" even if we got in a time machine and went back to witness the construction.

If there was a single stone on the spot before the construction began, there are posters on this board that would claim that it "proves" that Khufu only repaired the Great Pyramid, when there was only one stone left from the original!

Harte