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God does not change, the law does not either

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posted on Feb, 21 2014 @ 11:10 AM
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OptimusSubprime
reply to post by borntowatch
 


Good stuff... but some aspects of the law were rendered obsolete in the NT. For example, the NT makes obsolete the Sabbath commandment, food and drink laws, offerings, just to name a few. The law was never meant to be followed perfectly by man, because that is impossible and God knew this when He implemented it. That makes what Jesus accomplished even more amazing, because He was the only one capable of remaining perfect within the law in order to fulfill it.


Here is a question, no agenda

Those outside of Jesus, are they free from the "obsolete commandments"?

I think not
Just asking




posted on Feb, 21 2014 @ 11:32 AM
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borntowatch
The Old Testament does not teach a brutal God, it teaches a brutal law.


....a brutal and horrific law 'inspired' by your god.....who would be ultimately responsible.


The law of Moses is the natural law of life
Tooth for tooth, eye for an eye and blood for blood.


Natural law of life?? while the natural world is genrally a bloodbath, there are no such laws. You're making this up.


Is that hard to understand, is the law fair or is it just?
The OT God is no different from Jesus, God established a law that is still in effect today.


Then Jesus is a genocidal maniac?


Remember God created Eden for relationship, not this damaged world.


For 'A' relationship with mankind? one in which it entraps it's new partners and then holds them all accountable for becoming entrapped?


Now Jesus came to set humanity free from the law, if they so much as ask and carry the cross, we can be redeemed from sin in Christ


It sends it's own son (that's also itself) to die horribly to create a loophole for the 'law' it created? (see above)


God sent Jesus to humanity to pay the blood debt because of His love for us.


I don't think you know what love is......do you often threaten your loved ones with pain and suffering merely because they don't do what you demand they do?


God couldnt send anything less than perfection to pay the debt because only God is perfect.


The debt?? for allowing themselves (adam+eve) to be created and deceived??


Humanity had to pay the debt so God had to become human to honour the debt demanded by the law. God sent part of Himself in the Trinity, Jesus


Yep it sent itself in a human meat suit to be a human/god sacrifice to himself to create a loophole.....the fact that it makes perfect sense to you is 90% of the problem with religion.


To say there is an OT God and a NT God is to ignore the whole bible


No, to say that the god character in the bible is anything but a bullying, deceiving, murderous dictator and to mention things such as love in the same breath, is to ignore the whole bible...
edit on 21-2-2014 by Prezbo369 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 21 2014 @ 12:04 PM
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reply to post by borntowatch
 

As I previously stated I am no theologian,
You seem to be playing in the role of one.
You must have said that on an earlier thread.

I think you want to make a statement.
I think that everything that you said in the Original Post is wrong except maybe where you contradict yourself, then it leaves a little crack where maybe some truth can get in.

Please go ahead, I want to know your understanding
You said, "The Law is not God", but you make it your god by making the person who should have that status subservient to it.

Mine is simple, sin equals death, the debt is sin
It may be simple in terms of how many words the statement takes up, but in its idea, it isn't, meaning someone who was a philosopher came up with it, since it is not something that comes directly from the Bible.
edit on 21-2-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 21 2014 @ 12:11 PM
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reply to post by borntowatch
 

Those outside of Jesus, are they free from the "obsolete commandments"?
If they are obsolete, then Yes.
What Paul was saying basically about the old Mosaic Law was that it was really a man-made system of holiness, that even if you kept it all, it does not guarantee a godliness concerning your own human spirit.
Everyone is placed on the same level, that they need faith, and the spirit from God that comes with it.
edit on 21-2-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 21 2014 @ 12:12 PM
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jmdewey60
reply to post by borntowatch
 

As I previously stated I am no theologian,
You seem to be playing in the role of one.
You must have said that on an earlier thread.

I think you want to make a statement.
I think that everything that you said in the Original Post is wrong except maybe where you contradict yourself, then it leaves a little crack where maybe some truth can get in.

Please go ahead, I want to know your understanding
You said, "The Law is not God", but you make it your god by making the person who should have that status subservient to it.

Mine is simple, sin equals death, the debt is sin
It may be simple in terms of how many words the statement takes up, but in its idea, it isn't, meaning someone who was a philosopher came up with it, since it is not something that comes directly from the Bible.
edit on 21-2-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)


So you criticise yet offer nothing

well ho hum



posted on Feb, 21 2014 @ 12:14 PM
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Prezbo369

borntowatch
The Old Testament does not teach a brutal God, it teaches a brutal law.


....a brutal and horrific law 'inspired' by your god.....who would be ultimately responsible.


The law of Moses is the natural law of life
Tooth for tooth, eye for an eye and blood for blood.


Natural law of life?? while the natural world is genrally a bloodbath, there are no such laws. Your making this up.


Is that hard to understand, is the law fair or is it just?
The OT God is no different from Jesus, God established a law that is still in effect today.


Then Jesus is a genocidal maniac?


Remember God created Eden for relationship, not this damaged world.


For 'A' relationship with mankind? one in which it entraps it's new partners and then holds them all accountable for becoming entrapped?


Now Jesus came to set humanity free from the law, if they so much as ask and carry the cross, we can be redeemed from sin in Christ


It sends it's own son (that's also itself) to die horribly to create a loophole for the 'law' it created? (see above)


God sent Jesus to humanity to pay the blood debt because of His love for us.


I don't think you know what love is......do you often threaten your loved ones with pain and suffering merely because they don't do what you demand they do?


God couldnt send anything less than perfection to pay the debt because only God is perfect.


The debt?? for allowing themselves (adam+eve) to be created and deceived??


Humanity had to pay the debt so God had to become human to honour the debt demanded by the law. God sent part of Himself in the Trinity, Jesus


Yep it sent itself in a human meat suit to be a human/god sacrifice to himself to create a loophole.....the fact that it makes perfect sense to you is 90% of the problem with religion.


To say there is an OT God and a NT God is to ignore the whole bible


No, to say that the god character in the bible is anything but a bullying, deceiving, murderous dictator and to mention things such as love in the same breath, is to ignore the whole bible...
edit on 21-2-2014 by Prezbo369 because: (no reason given)


and sincerely God bless you

we remain at odds

i disagree but you have a right to your belief



posted on Feb, 21 2014 @ 01:58 PM
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borntowatch
The Old Testament does not teach a brutal God, it teaches a brutal law.
... The OT God is no different from Jesus,


I disagree.

The PEOPLE who wrote the Old Testament CLAIMED to be writing about God and His law.
The Old Testament 'God' that they claimed to speak for was cold, hard, and unloving.
And He was extremely bloodthirsty. (take a look at the exploits of Joshua).
Jesus is the exact opposite. He is Mercy incarnate.

The two can't even be compared ... they are night and day different.



posted on Feb, 21 2014 @ 07:24 PM
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borntowatch
reply to post by OptimusSubprime
 


From my understanding only the moral law exists for followers of Christ.
My post was not a bible study, it was an explanation of Jesus and His relationship to the OT

Please dont theologically overreach the context


Sorry, your context wasn't very clear.



posted on Feb, 21 2014 @ 09:38 PM
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Pure christian dogma... Nothing more

I'll make this short and sweet... Gods law doesn't change

In that the OP is correct... Yet rather misguided

Gods law is Love, and it has always been, and always will be...

The OT god... Isn't God...

That solves the issue completely

Peace




posted on Feb, 21 2014 @ 10:56 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 

That solves the issue completely
Think about the movie, The 300.
The empire that the Spartans were fighting were the best buddies of the Jews.
They hated the Greeks because they were disrupting the status quo.
The Persians said, "We are going to honor all the Gods", so they invented a god to have a status in the Persian Empire to get funding for their temple and to be recognized as a separate semi autonomous province.
edit on 21-2-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 21 2014 @ 11:02 PM
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reply to post by borntowatch
 


The law DOES change. Even within Judaism, biblical law is dynamic and not static. If the law does not change, then how do you reconcile Christ saving the adulteress from stoning? The law commanded that she be stoned, yet Jesus saved her. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". If the law still applied as it did in the OT during Christ's time on earth (and after), then Jesus clearly broke it, which can't be reconciled with the Christian faith since Jesus was blameless, without blemish, etc.



posted on Feb, 22 2014 @ 03:30 AM
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DeadSeraph
reply to post by borntowatch
 


The law DOES change. Even within Judaism, biblical law is dynamic and not static. If the law does not change, then how do you reconcile Christ saving the adulteress from stoning? The law commanded that she be stoned, yet Jesus saved her. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". If the law still applied as it did in the OT during Christ's time on earth (and after), then Jesus clearly broke it, which can't be reconciled with the Christian faith since Jesus was blameless, without blemish, etc.


Well I disagree
Jesus clearly taught a new lesson to His followers, love, forgiveness and service.
The OT still stands for those outside of Christ and they will be judged on that

In Jesus we are justified
Matthew 5:17 "Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the: prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill."

Jesus forgave the lost lady from stoning because He showed sympathy and compassion, that is within the law.



posted on Feb, 22 2014 @ 03:39 AM
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reply to post by borntowatch
 


Jesus forgave the lady from stoning because Jesus was not here to bring judgement. He did not come to condemn the world, but to save it. The Law said that she should be stoned, but who benefits from that law? Does God benefit when an adulteress is stoned? I don't believe so. I think that only person who gets "justice" in that situation is the husband, but even that is a little debatable. After all, did Jesus say to the crowd "Don't stone this woman, she did nothing wrong?" He did not say that, but he said "If any among you has not sinned, let that one be the first to cast a stone." In the Law, if a man was faithful to his wife but she was not faithful to him, it is the same to the woman as being unfaithful to God. But if the man was also unfaithful to God, then why should God punish the woman but not the man? There were no faithful in the crowd who tried to stone the woman, so where is the justice? If the wicked bring violence on the wicked as punishment for their sins, then what justice is there? It is just violence at that point. And if the wicked continue to judge for each other who is wicked, then who will be left when all the stones have been thrown?

Nobody.



posted on Feb, 22 2014 @ 03:40 AM
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borntowatch

DeadSeraph
reply to post by borntowatch
 


The law DOES change. Even within Judaism, biblical law is dynamic and not static. If the law does not change, then how do you reconcile Christ saving the adulteress from stoning? The law commanded that she be stoned, yet Jesus saved her. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". If the law still applied as it did in the OT during Christ's time on earth (and after), then Jesus clearly broke it, which can't be reconciled with the Christian faith since Jesus was blameless, without blemish, etc.


Well I disagree
Jesus clearly taught a new lesson to His followers, love, forgiveness and service.
The OT still stands for those outside of Christ and they will be judged on that

In Jesus we are justified
Matthew 5:17 "Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the: prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill."

Jesus forgave the lost lady from stoning because He showed sympathy and compassion, that is within the law.


on what biblical grounds do you disagree? First you state that the OT laws still apply today, and then you state that the OT laws only apply to those outside of Christ's grace. Which is it?

You also state that sympathy and compassion is within the law, but the law did not call for sympathy and compassion for adulterers. It called for them to be stoned to death, which Christ overruled. The adulteress was clearly unsaved at the moment Jesus extended his mercy to her, as she was still under the law according to your own interpretations. Clearly, Christ either changed the law at that moment, or he overruled it (or he broke it). Either way, things changed at his presence on earth.

Even outside of a Christian viewpoint, it's important to view the OT and it's laws in the context of Jewish/Rabbinical practices, since that is the religion that founded those laws. Jewish people no longer stone adulterers or disobedient children, nor do they keep slaves. Why is that? Could it be because those laws are dynamic? YES! Even within judaism (the seed of Christianity), biblical laws are dynamic, and can be amended with the times. This is not because God changes, but rather because people do. You have been instructed in error.



posted on Feb, 22 2014 @ 04:11 AM
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GodIsRelative
reply to post by borntowatch
 


Jesus forgave the lady from stoning because Jesus was not here to bring judgement. He did not come to condemn the world, but to save it. The Law said that she should be stoned, but who benefits from that law? Does God benefit when an adulteress is stoned? I don't believe so. I think that only person who gets "justice" in that situation is the husband, but even that is a little debatable. After all, did Jesus say to the crowd "Don't stone this woman, she did nothing wrong?" He did not say that, but he said "If any among you has not sinned, let that one be the first to cast a stone." In the Law, if a man was faithful to his wife but she was not faithful to him, it is the same to the woman as being unfaithful to God. But if the man was also unfaithful to God, then why should God punish the woman but not the man? There were no faithful in the crowd who tried to stone the woman, so where is the justice? If the wicked bring violence on the wicked as punishment for their sins, then what justice is there? It is just violence at that point. And if the wicked continue to judge for each other who is wicked, then who will be left when all the stones have been thrown?

Nobody.


I agree



posted on Feb, 22 2014 @ 04:38 AM
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DeadSeraph

on what biblical grounds do you disagree? First you state that the OT laws still apply today, and then you state that the OT laws only apply to those outside of Christ's grace. Which is it?

You also state that sympathy and compassion is within the law, but the law did not call for sympathy and compassion for adulterers. It called for them to be stoned to death, which Christ overruled. The adulteress was clearly unsaved at the moment Jesus extended his mercy to her, as she was still under the law according to your own interpretations. Clearly, Christ either changed the law at that moment, or he overruled it (or he broke it). Either way, things changed at his presence on earth.

Even outside of a Christian viewpoint, it's important to view the OT and it's laws in the context of Jewish/Rabbinical practices, since that is the religion that founded those laws. Jewish people no longer stone adulterers or disobedient children, nor do they keep slaves. Why is that? Could it be because those laws are dynamic? YES! Even within judaism (the seed of Christianity), biblical laws are dynamic, and can be amended with the times. This is not because God changes, but rather because people do. You have been instructed in error.



Its both
In Jesus we are forgiven, outside Jesus there is condemnation from the law.
Jesus has the power to forgive.

As for the adulteress, did Jesus demand she be forgiven, did he over rule those with the stones, change the law, where?

The Jewish laws of today are dynamic, thats true. But what of the biblical laws, are you saying Jesus changed them, God did or was it the Jews who changed them.

Where do you learn biblical laws are dynamic for God
Where does God change the laws for Israel and man

I have seen nothing to justify your beliefs



posted on Feb, 22 2014 @ 04:45 AM
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Akragon
Pure christian dogma... Nothing more

I'll make this short and sweet... Gods law doesn't change

In that the OP is correct... Yet rather misguided

Gods law is Love, and it has always been, and always will be...

The OT god... Isn't God...

That solves the issue completely

Peace




and thats why I wrote the thread, cos I believe that you and others are wrong.

and I would expect no more depth from one of your posts than the above.



posted on Feb, 22 2014 @ 09:54 AM
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reply to post by borntowatch
 


Akragon: So since a man sleeping with another man has nothing to do with love, then thats ok? Do you see? That is what OP is saying by no depth, I call it State Run Church Syndrome, take your medicine (ALL SCRIPTURE).



posted on Feb, 22 2014 @ 10:38 AM
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stok3th3fir3
reply to post by borntowatch
 


Akragon: So since a man sleeping with another man has nothing to do with love, then thats ok? Do you see? That is what OP is saying by no depth, I call it State Run Church Syndrome, take your medicine (ALL SCRIPTURE).


I must be drunk
I dont understand what you are trying to say

Can you clarify your point, maybe I am a little slow in understanding
Thanks



posted on Feb, 22 2014 @ 11:36 AM
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reply to post by DeadSeraph
 


Did you know that it took almost 1000 years for that story, "Let him without sin cast the first stone" to appear in the canonical book of Mark? Oh, Christian apologists insist the story was floating around in the margins, in some obscure Coptic text, but it wasn't approved and actually made part of the cannon until way late.

It's a nice story, but we don't really know if that's really what Jesus said, or if was even Jesus or some early Christian that actually said it. "Sounds good! Let's include it and attribute it to Jesus"!

What if the crowd demanding this adulteress death were a bunch of her scorned lovers, all also guilty of adultery, but acting like innocents? Maybe she was about to expose them to their wives or clergy! Kinda changes the moral of the story.

Personally, I don't see enough evidence to say that Jesus overruled or eliminated the LAW. I think he clarified the LAW, and accused the pharisees and saducees of working the law to burdon the masses for their own benefit.

If Jesus was of an Essene background, which I believe he was, then it makes more sense. The Essenes didn't believe "GOD" demanded animal sacrifice nor the death penalty. They thought that was "man's" law. They took in outcasts, criminals and the sick, and offered strict methods of rehab using diet and piety. If that didn't work, the criminals in their midst were banished, never stoned.

Jesus never changed or disavowed the Sabbath. He said the Sabbath was made for man, not the other way around. Jesus never disavowed circumcision.

Jesus made the LAW harder. Adding thought crimes to the 10 Commandments.



edit on 22-2-2014 by windword because: (no reason given)



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