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Were you a "bright child who didn't apply him/herself"?

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posted on Feb, 22 2014 @ 08:41 PM
reply to post by DeadSeraph

Handwriting analysis is basically analyzing signatures for cues about the individual that may reflect their personality/behavior/self esteem/etc. It's kind of considered a pseudoscience but is still better and perhaps more telling about an individual than astrology. Not heard of it being applied to estimating iq but I seem to recall in studies that some with higher iqs may actually have some poor fine motor skills as children and ergo, not so neat handwriting (could explain "doctor's handwriting" lol). So maybe he was looking at that.

reply to post by Astrocyte

Great post and I know a few on this thread who would probably add that the kind of factory-like setting was financed and supported by the industrial elite and well, eugenicist philosophers. I think modeling our education after more paleo styles would really not be a bad idea just looking at it from an evolutionary perspective. As a species, we spent an extraordinary amount of time learning through in the field practice and story telling and far less sitting behind desks in rows reading from drily written textbooks. Trade learning with a basic reading/math wouldn't be a bad thing either as then, especially if it's catered to both a child's interests and specific abilities, it loses the "I'm never going to use this when I grow up" attitude.

posted on Feb, 23 2014 @ 05:27 AM
reply to post by Astrocyte

That stable emotional state would require stability in the homes also to reach its full capacity, and the paleo model works for that also, and is how I see the future life (ideally). But for all of these things to happen our current machinations of civilization would have to be altered. Our lives are so separated and disjointed now for this type of life to exist in mass. The communal life is probably closest you find in America besides those few native tribes that have maintained their heritage. It's too cost prohibitive now. We can't afford to have teachers that are emotionally healthy vibrant individuals with 10 or so kids right now except if you are wealthy. We can't afford to have emotionally healthy teachers for 30 kids now. Frankly most emotionally healthy people get out of teaching because of the life suck that the system is. And we can't afford it financially because everyone is broke, govt included. I hope we will see a transition to this model of life in my lifetime but I fear it will only be after major suffering on a massive scale that people will wake up. I'm not saying we have to give up our individual lives but, it would sure be a heck of a lot easier on everyone if we shared resources more. Like multiple families cooking together, and sharing vehicles, farming, teaching, plus the ability to maintain a profession. Right now its almost impossible to live on one income for a family. So who suffers? The kids who don't have a stable emotional environment oft times because they are given to caretakers, adding another level of distance between child and family. Unfortunately its hard to get along with people on a close level. Especially since everyone has grown up in a separated community in America. The houses get bigger and further separated, the kids don't even share rooms anymore, or if they do its a tragedy. We've lived in our house for 6 years and barely know our neighbors we are so busy. The western life is one big machination of busyness. One big machine. The schools are part of that machine. The machine runs well with average. It runs well on comfortable.

posted on Feb, 23 2014 @ 11:59 AM
reply to post by zardust

All good points. Whereas there are major systemic forces inhibiting a full transition to this model of education, in the interim, we can do little things that don't involve a system overhaul.

Your argument that the general culture exercises a regulating influence on how schools are operated obviously makes sense - so long as people are buried in an industrial model of relating, chances are the forces of "competition" will undo, or counter, the cooperative skills we want to establish between teachers and their students.

In any case, we know - or at least have an idea - that a long term solution entails rejigging the socioeconomic environment, at least to the point where hierarchy and competition is deemphasized (not completely eliminated) so as to create more equity and egalitarianism between individuals. As you said, it is really difficult being a teacher AS IT IS. Asking teachers to fully dedicate themselves to the lives of their students requires an emotional fortitude, maturity, and self awareness that frankly not many people are able to cultivate or develop when their pay isn't very good and when their hours are too long.

Fact is, we as a society need to better appreciate the importance of being a teacher. The future of our planet is largely predicated upon the types of people we produce for the next generations. And the people largely responsible for this - who spend the most time with our children - are teachers. And yet who does are society consistently reward? Businessmen. Movie stats. Sports stars. As much as I believe in individual rights, there is such a thing as "balance" - and I believe we as a society have indulged individualism far too much with pretty devastating consequences. This means the wealthy SHOULD be taxed more - so that we can begin improving the quality of education - and thus the culture - that children receive.

We clearly need more teachers. An optimally sized classroom is between 10 and 15 students; not 30. In a classroom of 30 students, a teacher is hardly able to really establish an intimate relationship with each of her students. So without this rapport, students are largely left on their own so self-regulate, without much adult guidance or support. Why are kids nowadays so fickle? Why has social-anxiety become such a large problem? Because groups have grown too large, impacting the natural dynamics that human beings evolved to adapt towards. What's funny is - most of us intuitively get this. The larger the group, the more unknown faces, the more unsure and overwhelmed we feel. But make the group smaller - and give us a mediator i.e a wise elder - who can help guide group dynamics, and socializing for a child becomes significantly easier. This also suggests, on a socioeconomic level, the we need to decentralize and move more towards a communal-style form of governance.

As for what we can do in the interim? We can introduce mindfulness into schools, and other techniques that help children and teachers to better self regulate. The argument in doing this - and why it could facilitate further progress - is that a healthy and happy student is more receptive to learning. A long term socioemotional consequence of this approach may be an "increase" in social awareness. As kids develop the regulatory skills that help them to "feel good" more often - with their peers - naturally, when they reach adulthood, they will be more socially conscious and more considerate towards the implementation of legislation that "evens out" the socioeconomic pie.

Individualism is highly tied into competition and thus selfishness. A rich guy who "earned" his pay is not likely going to be willing to give up what he feels he "earned". I put quotations around "earned" because success in life is largely a game of luck. The idea that genes control us is largely a thing of the past; new views see development as the interaction between genes and environment, or rather genes THROUGH environment (nature via nurture). Some people may have all the genetic prowess for success, but for whatever bad luck of theirs, they kept getting traumatized as a kids: abusive parents, negligent parents, can radically change developmental trajectory. In addition, there are life-factors that are pure chance that make one person "more resilient" than another person. For example, some people meet other people with a lot of resilience. This chance meeting allows the former person to "pick up" the resilient qualities of the person they've formed a relationship with. This is luck; this is not "earning" your way to success. Of course, effort is a big part of the puzzle, and I'm not trying to diminish the effect effort can have. But why in the first place to people develop the enthusiasm for effort in the first place? In laboratory models with rats - if you put enough obstacles in front of them, the rats will eventually give up. Same thing with humans. If a child, and then as an adolescent, faces enough painful, dejecting experiences, they will become conditioned to see the world through the lens of those discouraging experiences.

My point? If we really pay attention to the way people develop, the natural conclusion must be, we are all inextricably tied to one another. How one person "earns" his way to success is largely predicated on the types of relationships he formed in life, rather than being a product of his "genetic prowess".

posted on Feb, 23 2014 @ 12:13 PM

reply to post by crazyewok

I would definitely agree that ATSers are above average intelligence. While various people around the country are "Who's Joe Biden?", people here pretty much have it down pat.

Ok putting the woo woo's to one side.

I think sites like ATS attract those wanting to learn and question things.

To me people curious about their world and determined to learn and critically thing are on the whole smarter than your average Joe who would rather keep their head down and go through the motions of living.

A idiot of average person would spend there time on celebrity and other mundane and boring websites and would not waste there time on such a place.

posted on Feb, 23 2014 @ 12:23 PM
reply to post by crazyewok

I would also say that there are two types of smarter than average, also.

There are the ones you are describing here who have the patience to learn how the system works and then learn how to work the system to their advantage so they ultimately get what they want or need. Those are the ones whom the Soviets would trust to go into the West and suddenly they would defect seemingly out of the blue. I'm betting it wasn't a sudden conversion, but something that they had been working on for a long, long time and then seized the offered opportunity to take.

There are also the ones who see the system and buck it because they don't care to have the patience to work it. Those are the ones who wound up in the gulags or escaped through the underground.

If the US collapses into such a state, all of us here, regardless of our mindsets are already in trouble.

posted on Feb, 23 2014 @ 12:37 PM
reply to post by WhiteAlice

Beginning of 3rd grade we all took IQ tests which prompted a parent-teacher meeting in my case. The teacher explained that I tested on a 7th grade level in everything except math and recommended that I be advanced to 4th grade. My mother argued that when I could show a 7th grade proficiency in math that I could be advanced to 4th grade. Silly me, argued that if I were on a 7th grade level in everything except math that I should be advanced to 7th grade with a remedial math class added. They both looked at me like I'd grown a horn from my forehead and went back to arguing their respective points. That's when I realized that school wasn't about education at all; it was about control of the child. From that point on I took responsibility for my own education.

When I got to 6th and 7th grades I was only attending school 2 days a week. Monday was the day assignments were handed out and Fridays were test days. Those were the 2 days I went. Made 100's on all my tests in every subject but received an "F" for the course due to attendance (or the lack thereof). I argued that if I could learn the material in 2 days rather than 5 that I shouldn't be punished but rewarded for the skill. The educators (and my parents) did not see it that way.

Other kids berated me for being a "snob" because I used big words and tended to discuss things that weren't on television (rarely watched it). I was told I'd never amount to anything so, of course, I had to prove everyone wrong. The public education system is still about control of the child and is becoming more blatantly so. I homeschool my child because when he was in the public schools he had a higher IQ than his teacher (verified by testing) who tried to force him to take Ritalin and attend special education for his "mental retardation"! Smart people see through the game and fend for themselves.

posted on Feb, 25 2014 @ 12:05 PM
Environmentally triggered identification with rebellion,
neurological depression akin to apathetic prone to peak emotional arousal, generally intellectually centered,
slightly more prone to stress due to lack of neural activity, love and pride or ego sugar, sufficient to easily
cope with stressful situations,
slightly slow... easily distracted, a condition akin to ADD, never quite officially diagnosed.

An infancy identification with rebellion resulting in a reactionary attitude toward coercive parenting tactics,
kicked out of multiple elementary schools,
interested from start to finish in self education as a spiritually important pursuit,
all the way into mid high school,
Christian Theology and an introspective exploration of anarcho-ethics,
and almost nothing but reading from moment to moment: deviant classics.

asocial, socially disinterested, due to lack of pride or forward momentum,
spiritually very stubborn on point of resisting attempts to coerce my will,
as well as avoidance of accidentally...
anarcho-libertarian tactics studied in the childhood toward
the (pragmatic?) necessity of defusing legalistic controls on society in conflict with eye for an eye president,
an outright feminist persuasion, subtle culturally absorbed (Southern State home town) homophobia defused from toward 18th - 21st birthday, directly internally confronted by about Sr. Year, induced by a tendency to be around gay bashing southerners.

Moral momentum has a tendency to be induced by the broad spectrum, social identification of the heart.

Beginning 10th great, an interest in psychology, psychiatry... but serious reading on the science itself not begun until Sr. Year, continued unto the present.

Mostly a lot of poetry and literature.

An eventual conversion to Orthodox Islam to result from a Christian upbringing as a self identified non conformist.

posted on Feb, 25 2014 @ 12:08 PM
As an elementary schooler, If I considered the parenting tactics of my relatives abusive,
I attempted to militarily counter leverage by not responding,
self educating,
and even going a bit further every instant aggressively punished,
internally conflicted spiritually by the thought of being made to do it,
of breaking instead of just taking a beating.
This resulted in 1st grade elementary school expulsion,
and barely passing report card grades despite a perceived above average iq.

posted on Feb, 25 2014 @ 03:38 PM

I had issues with showing work on my math papers. This was back in the stone age before calculators. Once a teacher wrote a problem on the board and asked me to work it, I simply walked up and wrote down the answer. The answer was right but the teacher did not comprehend how I arrived at my answer. I am not a savant, I just see and do things differently.

I was the same exact way! I had several math teachers tell me that they understood that I 'got it' but I had to 'prove' the work. It truly baffled them that I couldn't write out the steps.

It was like those little details of 'proving' your work, bogged my brain down and made it come to a screeching halt, but looking at the equation, I could see the numbers and answers clearly. I brain just skipped a few steps. I failed many math tests and assignments because of it.

Same thing with english. Anyone remember having to diagram a sentence? What the hell was that all about?!

Many, many report cards always had the 'bright but doesn't apply herself' or 'lack of focus'. I remember trying to tell my parents I was bored in school, or with the math thing.. And they didn't believe me. I was labeled a 'lazy student who didn't apply herself' not only by the schools, but my parents.

After many years thinking I just wasn't up to snuff, and something was missing in me not being able to excell in school, I really evaluated things when I became a mother. I was determined help my kids in any way to make learning exciting. Only then did I realize how very bored I was in school. It was like a big ole thump on the head realizing that I wasn't 'dumb' or lazy'. I am honest with them about my education, and tell them to prod along in the boring classes, and cheer them when they become excited in a subject (thankfully they do get excited)

I did have a few teachers who believed in me, and they mostly were science teachers. I would have long discussions with them, and they always asked why I wasn't in their class. When I pointed out the math thing (because back then, you had to pass algebra 2 to take the fun stuff) you could see the fustration they had about this. I often wonder how many bright kids eager to learn, were left behind.

Sadly, I think this is a vicious cycle that will repeat itself many times over.

I can only speak for myself, and not knocking anyone who excelled in a more traditional way. I just wish there was some middle ground.

posted on Feb, 26 2014 @ 01:45 PM
For me K-8 was an exercise in torture. I passed most of those classes on my test scores. I always had trouble understanding why exactly it is I had to do the homework when the whole point of being issued the homework was to make sure you understood the material to pass the weekly test. So to me if I could pass the test at the end of the week without doing the homework obviously there was no need for me to do it. Teachers really did not like it when this pointed out. This was the case for every subject except math. I always struggled with it. My abilities have always laid in having strong mechanical skills. I was the girl everyone brought their broken toys to, because they knew I could probably repair them.

The real problem with our education system is that it tries to teach everyone exactly the same skills regardless of their aptitude. Instead after the third grade it should be focusing on teaching mainly to the child's aptitude and rounding out with a lighter focus on the rest. Not everyone in this country can work in a bank and sit on some executive board so why is our education system pushing those as the only things that have any value? This isn't anything particularly new. My mom long ago accepted that I would never be a domestic type. I liked my dolls and easy bake oven just fine, but for me true happiness was a bucket of Legos and later on a small toolbox.

posted on Feb, 27 2014 @ 02:12 AM
reply to post by KeliOnyx

I selected woodworking class and auto body repair for my electives in 10th grade and was flatly refused. They told me that because I was a girl, I would not be allowed to take those classes and HAD to take home economics. I'd been cooking and cleaning and taking care of kids since I was 4 so I really didn't need a tutorial in home economics. Schools have gotten a bit more progressive since I left as I understand girls can now take those classes (if the school even offers them anymore) and boys can take home ec (or whatever they're calling it now).

Pigeon-holing people into stereotypes is just an exercise in futility and frustration for all parties involved. The final blow-out for me was when my home-ec teacher called me to the front of the class and began publicly pointing out to the class just how flawed I was because I wasn't stylish. How could I ever expect to "catch a man" with no make-up on out in public, wearing pants and not a figure flattering dress, etc. The berating went on for a good 10 minutes until I finally asked the teacher how stylish she would be with a black eye. I got expelled, of course. Went out and got my GED a few days later. Scored in the top 10% of the nation. Tried to enroll in college but had to wait til I was 18. I used the delay time to teach myself woodworking and auto repair.

Public education in America is about control. They teach conformity and compliance and socialization. From what I've seen of my grandkids homework, there's a good deal of propaganda being pushed as well. I scour the local bookshops for "antique" history books because history is being re-written. Definitions of words are being changed. Words like "Democracy". Ask any high school student if America is a democracy. Most don't even know the difference between a democracy and a constitutional republic.

One of the good things about ATS is that you can get a wider, more rounded education here than in public schools. Of course there's a lot of fact-checking that needs to happen. Consider it homework.
edit on 27-2-2014 by whitewave because: (no reason given)

posted on Feb, 27 2014 @ 01:10 PM
reply to post by whitewave

I was a destructive/constructive force as a child, taking apart household machines (and putting them back together) to see how they worked. While I didn't take any electives in shop or woodworking and can't recall whether or not they were suggested, the school did push pretty hard on the idea of my becoming a mechanical engineer and informed me that, to be anything else, it'd be a waste of my mind. They pushed far too hard to be honest as it pushed me to rebel and I ended up getting Saturday School for my refusal. Although I still loved seeing how things worked, I had much larger and squishier machines in my sights that were far more interesting to me.

So they didn't necessarily stereotype me based on gender but they definitely tried to get me to conform into what they wanted.

posted on Feb, 27 2014 @ 06:19 PM
reply to post by onyx alice wave

Dont suppose any of you three are single?

Sound just like my type

Especially wave . The fellow okie

I Love ladies with tools!

*blows a kiss to all three of you*

posted on Feb, 28 2014 @ 08:48 AM
reply to post by WhiteAlice

LOL. Was a little surprised myself at how unappreciative my parents were when I tried to fix the toaster oven. Had it all nicely disassembled on the dining room table when they came in. Tried to explain that I'd put it all back together but had to break it down first to find the faulty part. By their reaction you'd think they'd caught me performing an autopsy on the neighbors. LOL. When my younger brother did the same thing to our dad's motorcycle he was encouraged and praised for his ingenuity.

One of the reasons I got into nursing was because it was a gender-approved profession for girls wanting to be mechanics. Anatomy and physiology are very much "parts in relation to function" subjects.

As far as not applying myself in school, I freely confessed to all involved that I was not applying myself and probably wouldn't in the future (at least not in school). Also received the "does not play well with others" indictment since I saw right through the whole peer pressure attempt to ensure conformity. Whether it was channeled spirit masters, organized religion, public educators, peers or even parents, I saw only different groups of people trying to tell me what to do, what to think, how to be. Doesn't mean I didn't listen to what they had to say (except channeled spirit masters-never had any of those); I just chose to think for myself, research information for myself and come to my own conclusions. It's called being an individual. Sadly, there are many today who still don't see the value in human individuality.

The current educational system with its grading parameters/criteria is in serious need of an overhaul. I don't see that happening any time soon and my children can't wait for the system to be fixed; they need to be educated now. I taught my kids science as it related to everyday life by having them prepare meals and explaining what happens to the food as it cooks or how it is converted in the body to useable energy. I taught them math by redecorating their rooms and having to measure carpet, calculate square footage, etc. When you can see how knowledge applies to your daily life you won't look at musty old books and say, "I'll never need to know this". By providing opportunities for them to apply themselves in ways other than regurgitating memorized factoids, their "brightness" was allowed to show naturally.

posted on Feb, 28 2014 @ 08:55 AM
reply to post by WhiteAlice

School systems work on averages, the average test score, the average attendance etc.. This means they focus on the bottom end.

I remember working real hard, getting everything right and only getting a couple of merits for the entire year. Then a kid who was a trouble-maker and I know him now, he works for a drug dealer, he would get merits simply for coming into class :/ it was frustrating and made me wonder why I even bothered.

posted on Feb, 28 2014 @ 01:21 PM
reply to post by whitewave

lol, I ended up being a biology major myself. Took a whole ton of sciences actually as my intentions were to become an ecologist. I saw the earth as yet another system/machine, too. That's funny.

When my parents split, my knack for fixing things came into play and I was made the official "handyman of the house" when I was 13. It was like obtaining a license to tinker, lol. Loved every word that you said in your second paragraph. Absolutely agree and that's my attitude as well. I am me and there isn't single soul on this planet that is going to tell me who I am. My fiance knows that the harder he pushes something on me, the more resistant I get so even loved ones don't get a free pass. I really think that attitude was because of the push that I experienced in school.

The school system absolutely needs an overhaul. Agreed there, too. Developing life skills such as critical thinking, problem solving, logic and more, imho, would be far more beneficial than regurgitating those facts.

reply to post by Another_Nut

Admit it--you have a thing for Rosie the Riveter.
Taken and my fiance knows he's lucky to have a tool comfortable lady in his life as he admits he is abysmal at home repair. lol

posted on Feb, 28 2014 @ 01:35 PM

I've seen this phrase crop up several times in the "Were you in the gifted program?" thread. It was on every single one of my report cards nearly all the way through my K-12 experience, as well as my mother's report cards and my son's. A quick google search on bright child does not apply himself comes up with a number of people talking about their bright children who don't apply themselves. Interestingly enough, I did stumble across an early and reasonably close reference to the "bright child who does not apply himself" phenomena published way back in 1920.

If a superior child does not apply himself his scholarship rating may be mediocre or even poor, although his intelligence score may be high.


So we're distinctly looking at the possibility that, for nearly the last 100 years, the school system has relentlessly churned out bright children who do not apply themselves to this day. Not a very good improvement record if you think about it.
I think it'd be fun and interesting to see just how many of us exist here. I'd also love to know why it is that so many teachers used the exact phrase for so many different students across the nation. Was it part of their training? It's pretty remarkable that the wording is almost always consistent. Any teachers in the house want to share if it's part of some "this is what you say when you see this" type of teacher training?

I'm curious as to just how prolific that single report card phrase is and as a bright child who didn't apply herself,

The problem is not applying but being expected to apply or to apply with a goal or purpose that is not your own.

Today's society has for many many years been striving to make kids head in a direction that fits society's needs. However, society's needs are no longer dictated by what the masses of the general population sees fit but what the cooperations manage to persuade our weak spined politicians to believe is important.
Those educations are then favourized in terms of subsiditation and support.

I will wager my life, that if you condition a child to embrace their own interests and praise them when you feel they are doing good at something that you can sense that they themselves love to do, THEN they will apply themselves fully.

When I was young I wanted to be a lawyer… an astronaut… an architect… and I did end up studying architecture before hitting the ground with a moderate depression. I didn't consider those things or started architecture because I wanted to, but because I had a notion that that was what succes was all about.

But success does not come in the shape of what others believe makes you succesful, it comes when you go to sleep every day happy about what you are doing.
This is when you start applying yourself every day because you LOVE what you do, and when that kind of passion is present, wonderful things start to happen.

Boards of education need to stop listening to coorperations and business about the choices to be made for kids and young people and start looking into how they can reinforce the dreams and wishes of the kids instead.

5 dedicated people will outperform 25 worker slaves at any job… even manual labor.
edit on 28/2/14 by flice because: (no reason given)

posted on Feb, 28 2014 @ 04:01 PM

reply to post by WhiteAlice

"Bright kid who didn't apply him/her self" is really " not a good teacher, failed the kid".
If your a teacher with a bright kid who doesn't apply themselves, you are a boring teacher who most probably reads straight from the Text book and has no clue how to engage with the kid.
Had lots of them through school, waste of time.

Bingo !! Schooled in south Australia and encountered at least 2 of these each year until I got the hell out of there via f/t job at 15 years of age.

posted on Feb, 28 2014 @ 05:43 PM
reply to post by WhiteAlice

I admit it with no shame. Rosie is freakishly hot. Im in the trades and I am currently working as an auto tech till my new liscense comes thru. And after working with a guy who didnt know righty tighty lefty loosie or whitch way a lug nut goes on

Well It makes you type of ladies that much more smokeing hot

Hope your relationship the best!
edit on pm220142805America/ChicagoFri, 28 Feb 2014 17:43:45 -0600_2u by Another_Nut because: (no reason given)

posted on Feb, 28 2014 @ 06:01 PM
reply to post by Another_Nut

Righty tighty, lefty loosy except when you're working with plumbing.
Oh ho ho! I think it's kind of the same thing as a system administrator wanting to avoid hooking up with an "end user". Keeps the job at work instead of having to drag it home, lol.

Rosie was pretty cute.

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