Turns Out, Science and Religion Get Along Just Fine

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


Yes, I readily admit I replied to the two biggest name callers in that manner. Perhaps I shouldn't have.

raymundoko
reply to post by Grimpachi

 

So recap:

I say theories can become obsolete
You act like I'm an idiot for that
I show you that you are wrong
You say I back tracked...

Oh, its all clear to me now...

Can??? Can???

It seems like you have forgotten what you actually said. Let me quote you here.

Once a theory is disproven or superseded it becomes obsolete.

In fact that is not always true is it? Which is why we use both the general theory of relativity and Newton's theory of gravitation. I thought you realized you were backtracking with posting the Wiki piece, but I am not sure you realized that you were. In fact I am not sure you even realize what I am talking about.


Things are becoming much clearer I agree with you there. It has something to do with your appeals to authority though.

reply to post by Grimpachi


So based on your quote what exactly was I back tracking?

Once a theory is disproved or superseded it becomes obsolete.

So is that not a correct statement? I feel like you are attempting to argue semantics here for some reason because in once instance I used the word can and in the other I did not, however both statements imply the same thing...My apologies for not thoroughly forming my thoughts typing on a phone.

Here is a modified statement that combines both:

A theory that is widely accepted as fact can become superseded or obsolete. They can and have been outrightly discarded. There are many examples of this which can be found readily with Google.

Back to the OP:

There are a vocal minority on both sides who the media prop up as the only two sides in order to perpetuate a nietzsche-like point of view that science is the only answer and that if you believe in god you are ignorant and dumb. Once you accept that god is a fairy tale you have elevated yourself to a new level of consciousnesses...

I disagree with that. Most educated people I know disagree with that. My father and grandfather were atheists, but they were both in hard fought wars so I understand their struggle with the concept of a god.

Edit: Also, you forgot Special Relativity. I also have not appealed to a higher authority. Several times in this thread people have said "You can't be a real scientist and believe in God". So I pointed out that I am in fact what someone would consider a scientist. I may no longer be working in a scientific field as a full time job, but I have all the education and work experience that I would be considered one in academia. I have never said "I am right and you are wrong because I'm a scientist!".

I have only brought it up because that is the actual point of the thread. That more scientists believe in God than the Media portrays. The link in the OP has nothing to do with my beliefs, but was a widely publicized event to perpetuate the stereotype further.

reply to post by raymundoko


Are you saying you know of an investigative method superior in reliability and feasibility to science?

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Did I indicate that I thought there was a better form of fact finding than the scientific method? Currently there is no better way to understand our universe other than the scientific method. Personally, I wanted to know how lightning worked, so I decided to enter that field of science.

reply to post by raymundoko

There are a vocal minority on both sides who the media prop up as the only two sides in order to perpetuate a nietzsche-like point of view that science is the only answer and that if you believe in god you are ignorant and dumb.

I wouldn't call it dumb. The possibility is there. I certainly wouldn't call believing something is absolutely true without evidence as intelligent though…

However, believing in a specific religious god when the dogma is demonstrably false. Yep I would call those stupid beliefs. I hold no reservation in doing so either. One definition for 'stupid' is lacking intelligence. Which they clearly are. Now I am not calling the believers stupid. Intelligent people have stupid beliefs all the time.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


I actually agree with that statement. I also find dogmatic beliefs to be ignorant in nature. They are often the views (Usually inaccurate) of men applied as spiritual enlightenment to a sheepish group of followers. I think one can be Religious or Spiritual without being dogmatic.

That is why I am not a member of any church. Don't get me wrong, I spent 10 years regularly attending different religious services on my path to spirituality...I rejected them all.

reply to post by raymundoko

"Once a theory is disproved or superseded it becomes obsolete."

So is that not a correct statement?

I have answered you already on that.

There are a vocal minority on both sides who the media prop up as the only two sides in order to perpetuate a nietzsche-like point of view that science is the only answer and that if you believe in god you are ignorant and dumb. Once you accept that god is a fairy tale you have elevated yourself to a new level of consciousnesses...

I never made such a claim in this thread in fact I don't remember who has.

I also have not appealed to a higher authority

Who said anything about a higher authority? (yes words matter)

Description of Appeal to Authority

An Appeal to Authority is a fallacy with the following form:

1.Person A is (claimed to be) an authority on subject S.
2.Person A makes claim C about subject S.
3.Therefore, C is true.

Fallacy

I have only brought it up because that is the actual point of the thread. That more scientists believe in God than the Media portrays. The link in the OP has nothing to do with my beliefs, but was a widely publicized event to perpetuate the stereotype further.

Your OP is titled Turns Out, Science and Religion Get Along Just Fine

In your OP you said

I believe science and religion are reconcilable.

If you or anyone else want to believe in a deity I couldn't care less however when you claim religion is is reconcilable with science you are completely wrong.

reply to post by raymundoko


Religion is vain, and science is cold. Anyone who understands the animal side of human nature can surmise the mechanisms which attract us to religion, just as the human side (which I suspect is a midway between animal and something...else) compels us to break free of our organic roots and achieve an entirely novel level of existence, in which we are not beholden to the laws of this universe. I just wish we weren't doing it out of pride and greed and fear.

raymundoko
I actually agree with that statement. I also find dogmatic beliefs to be ignorant in nature.

Okay I try to take people for their word in discussion because I would want them to do the same for me. The thread topic was all encompassing though, so my critique is applied to people that are dogmatic with their doctrine.

I think one can be Religious or Spiritual without being dogmatic.

Depends on the nature of their belief I guess.

Dogma: a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.

^That certainly describes how most on ATS seem to treat their faith in my experience.

reply to post by Grimpachi


reply to post by Lucid Lunacy



The OP title is what it is because that is the title of the article...board rules.

reply to post by Grimpachi

Yes I agree. I can understand a high school dropout or even someone that was homeschooled not knowing the difference between scientific theory and the laymans definition of theory

I was both a high school drop out and homeschooled hehehe.

Granted I took the state's high school proficiency exam the year I was a Freshmen in HS and headed off to a community college the same year.

I showed up late to Human Sexuality class my first day of college. Super shy and a virgin. Stepped into the auditorium with a hundred adults staring at me. I'm wearing a huge backpacking pack for my books cuz I didn't own a regular one. I just stood in the doorway embarrassed and confused. Then the teacher asks me point blank what my thoughts on premarital sex were. lol.

The next class was Philosophy of Religion.

I think that day might have been a guiding hand in my life ^_^

reply to post by raymundoko


Well… I wasn't basing it on the thread title. Instead what you said in the OP itself "I believe science and religion are reconcilable."

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


Dude!!!!!! You made me LMAO.

Well you obviously are not science illiterate but let me ask you this. Were you always home schooled and did you find that as helpful or as a hindrance when you entered college?

reply to post by Grimpachi



Oops. Answered some of this earlier. Well to add. Honestly, and I mean this with the fullest sincerity, most of my education has come from my own volition. The internet really is the greatest source of knowledge and I have been capitalizing on it since I was a young pioneer exploring its potential! At the start it was texted based RPGs via BBS Door Games. I'm not as old as that sounds…just ahead of my times Then forums came about, and later torrents. Between the interwebz and bonfire conversation, I would say I learned much more that way than my schooling. That's even taking into account my BS degree. Not to discount schooling, or more advanced degrees I didn't pursue. Just that people should make stride to recognize the wealth of knowledge that is available to them outside of schooling if only they actively look for it. It's all around us, we just need to pluck it from someones head.

*Edit: college was for the most part a cakewalk my first semester. Partly because I went to the library and read some books on classes I knew I was going to enroll in. Again supporting my point I guess. Take advantage of the public library too! After that it wasn't too bad either. I'm a pretty smart dude. The hardest class I ever took was probably Native American History. Every assignment was a test that was entirely short essay questions O_o Teacher was a tough grader! Had some difficult philosophy classes too but I was an avid reader and I loved the material so it wasn't much issue.

Any hoot ^_^

I believe this thread is due for more scrutiny on ridiculous religions claims ^_^

The title of this topic is false and has nothing to do with opening post or what followed.

Firstly, science and religion do not get along well. Base of religion, God, can't be examined, proven to exist or not to exist. Same goes for many belief, including beginning of life, human origin and evolution, our place in universe etc.

It is true that some scientist can hold spiritual beliefs, but that does not show tolerance between religion and science in any way - as soon as the same scientist try to prove some religious scientific non-sense through science, you will find that either scientist will be on religious side and will disregard what evidence finds (thus not really scientist) or that he is not religious as scientific finding will prove his belief being wrong.

As long as you don't mix them together, you can have spirituality and use scriptures for its fictional values (if you can call that homophobic and insecure text such as most of scriptures are) but as soon as you mix them together, one will prevail and you can end up as Ken Ham believing earth is 6008 years old, just because bible said so, and all other evidence points otherwise. He has degree, but can he call himself scientist?

So, let's stop kidding our selves, this does not mix well..

reply to post by SuperFrog


Well said.


Great scientists are great scientists in spite of their religion, not because of it.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


Thanks for the info. I guess most of the time when I envision those who were homeschooled I think about all the reports about the kids who were brought up with highly religious indoctrination. I know that isn't always the case but they are the ones I hear about the most. I believe they have named themselves the Joshua generation. Many have become very outspoken against such upbringing once they escaped. Interestingly many claim that they were raised to debate for religion but when put into practice those debates began to wake them up to the realities of the world. There as a recent article about that I read recounting one of their stories which has made me favor more oversight for those who are homeschooled.link Well from your PM and this I am glad you didn't have to deal with that.

As far as the thread goes I think it will probably die as most of the others have when trying to reconcile religion and science. If it was possible it would have been made a accepted fact already. Of course people have been able to do it on a personal level but it always involves a certain amount of mental gymnastics to do so.

reply to post by Grimpachi


Again, I really don't see the Mental Gymnastics required. I was never indoctrinated into religious beliefs as a kid or early adult. I grew up with an Atheist father and a Mother who thought the Catholic church was a joke (She had been raised one on her Mothers side). I found it all on my own, so perhaps looking at it from a blank slate religiously is cheating?

I suppose if I was raised to believe the earth was 6,000 years old and god created stars on the 4th day I would absolutely have thrown it all out the window while in college.

This post is crazy misleading. It should read the majority of Christians believe science and religion go hand in hand. Oh and the fact the same people think the earth is 7000 years old and a guy put 2 of every animal on a boat.