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Ukraine, Who's to Blame?

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posted on Feb, 20 2014 @ 07:23 AM
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I don't know how up-to-date everyone is on the Ukraine situation at the moment, but I was late to work watching events unfold today. Protesters are now fully armed, with live ammunition and are fast becoming an armed militant movement.

Yesterday the President met with the opposition leader, a truce was made and the violence was meant to stop. However, many radicals have continued the violence and escalated it to the tipping point of civil war.


The armed protesters (as they are still being called, for now at least) are even taking prisoners, firing at press and have been observed holding a mock trial for a town mayor that had been captured. They have also captured a riot policeman who lost an eye in the violence, he was then denied an ambulance by rioters because "he is our prisoner" (trying to find the report of this, saw in on the news this morning but struggling for web source, please add if you can find it).

RT Report

The main reason for me making this post is not to point out obvious information, which is readily available to people who read the news regularly. What I want is to get people's opinion on who is causing this? Who is benefiting? I want the who's, why's and where's from our ATS community.

I will start with my views on the situation. I believe that the EU is a failing idea, it was a noble one, one that has brought us continent wide human rights, employment rights and unified the nations of Europe. However, they ruined it, they thought "I know, lets give every single trading country the same currency, it's definitely not going to fail", lord and behold, the euro failed. Now they are weakening, to the point of liquidisation and they need more financial backers. Ukraine is a fantastic addition to the EU, over the past few years they have come out of recession and are looking at possitive growth, something that EU countries are lacking.

Personally, I have no idea why Ukrainians want to be apart of the EU, they do know they are just a life jacket strapped to a sinking ship right? From someone who lives in an EU country, and does not particularly want this ship to sink, if I were Ukraine then I would have joined the Russian Federation, loads more benefits and they have a very stable economy. So it is my belief that parties interested in the continuation of the European Union may be playing a hidden hand behind the scenes, I am not alone in this belief, many Ukrainians share my view: Protesters against US influence. There is also the pamphlets that have been handed out, they are identical to the ones handed out in Egypt. It seems a little too much of a coincident, it could possibly be that they found these on the net and translated them, but I'm not buying it.


Another major reason I believe that the US has at least some kind of input into this violence is because of President Obama's speech, in this speech he place all the blame firmly on the shoulders of the Ukrainians President and is effectively threatening sanctions if the President doesn't stand down and give in to the protesters (in the name of democracy, of course). Link.

Also he has not addressed any issues surrounding the armed protesters, the security forces being captured and killed and is saying that if Ukraine take any forceful action against these militants then they are in danger of sanctions (which, I might add, is a rather aggressive action). Obama has not laid any blame on the right wing extremists who are the main instigators here, the Ukrainian President has been holding talks with the opposition and have come to agreements, that sounds like peaceful progress from the President and Opposition forces. However, the one's carrying it on are not apart of either of these (who I see as the integral parts of the Ukrainian Democratic process), they are an outside source using the right wing parties (in my opinion).

But I'm more interested in your opinion, what say you ATS? Do you back my theory, if so please help me with some evidence. Do you oppose this? If so please hold your insults and post some edivance against.

Mettā ~

ETA: I appreciate that most of my sources have been RT based, obviously they will be biased in this argument. However a lot of evidence is undeniable, at least, in my eyes, you are welcome to prove me wrong




posted on Feb, 20 2014 @ 08:07 AM
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reply to post by iRoyalty
 


To me it's pretty obvious that a substantial population of Ukraine don't agree with the current Government. When the Government is not responsive to it's Citizens, then conflict is inevitable.



posted on Feb, 20 2014 @ 08:09 AM
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There may be a geographical division as well, with eastern parts of the country being more comfortable with Russian influence.

We should not forget that historically the Ukraine was to Russia what New England was to the United States- the original heartland of the state.


edit on 20-2-2014 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 20 2014 @ 08:12 AM
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pavil
reply to post by iRoyalty
 


To me it's pretty obvious that a substantial population of Ukraine don't agree with the current Government. When the Government is not responsive to it's Citizens, then conflict is inevitable.



No doubt, and I totally believe in the legitimacy of the peaceful protesters, in fact I admire the oppositions ability to rally such quick and successful protests.

What I don't agree with is the violence started by the extremists and the mounting evidence of outside intervention in the violence that has been erupting in the capital, and is now spreading over the country.



posted on Feb, 20 2014 @ 08:14 AM
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DISRAELI
There may be a geographical division as well, with eastern parts of the country being more comfortable with Russian influence.

We should not forget that historically the Ukraine was to Russia what New England was to the United States- the original heartland of the state.


edit on 20-2-2014 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)


Ah yes, I've heard this one, there's a river I believe that separates the west and east? The east are still used to the idea of the USSR and the west have been eager to join Europe..

If this ends in civil war, I reckon we will have a post WWII Germany type of event (east and west Ukraine, half to Europe, half to Russia).



posted on Feb, 20 2014 @ 09:27 AM
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Just devil's advocate here, but is the RT source really going to give an unbiased view on the situation?

Also, the second link doesn't just single out Obama's announcements and thought on the topic and sanctions. Many other countries are mentioned as having the same plans and outlook.

Pot stirring transmission--out.
:
:
edit on 2/20/2014 by Chamberf=6 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 20 2014 @ 09:32 AM
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Chamberf=6
Just devil's advocate here, but is the RT source really going to give an unbiased view on the situation?


No I honestly don't believe so, which is why I added a little ETA at the end. I have been taking in their side of things with an open mind, however, none of it is lies.

The Ukrainian Government has been addressing concerns, the President did step down and his deputy has taken his place for now. Dialogue between the Government and the Opposition has been open and they have even come to agreements, yet there is still a force driving the violence.


Chamberf=6

Also, the second link doesn't just single out Obama's announcements and thought on the topic and sanctions. Many other countries are mentioned as having the same plans and outlook.


Yes, and those countries all have EU or NATO ties.
edit on 20-2-2014 by iRoyalty because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 20 2014 @ 09:35 AM
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The USA, Germany etc. should just shut it and go about their own problems. That's none of their business. They want to make it their business of course, like installing a "new and democratic" regime blabla.. BUT, there is somebody called Putin


There is demonstrating and then there's what is going on in Kiev right now. IMO, the military should be in by now to clear this mess up. Is has gotten out of hands, with many casualties on both sides.

RT was showing a video yesterday, showing a transportation plane on a Ukrainian Airport, that allegedly carried Cash from the US. The video's date was the 10th of December, 2012.


ETA:

Live cam RT.com
edit on 20-2-2014 by Hellas because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 20 2014 @ 09:38 AM
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This one isnt as simple as "nice protestors vs. evil regime". Its more like pro-European Ukrainians vs. pro-Russia Ukrainians. Ukraine has always been very divided in this respect with half the country giving allegiance to Russia and the other half to Europe. This "evil regime" was democratically elected so the protestors dont really have the right to use bombs and violence against it. On the other hand, the Government has broken many principles of Democracy such as oppressing dissent, banning demonstrations, locking away opponents. Many of the post-Communist countries have had difficulties adjusting to Democracy. Some were lucky and got really good and fair-minded Leadership but the Ukrainians werent that lucky.



posted on Feb, 20 2014 @ 09:41 AM
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President Obama's speech, in this speech he place all the blame firmly on the shoulders of the Ukrainians President and is effectively threatening sanctions if the President doesn't stand down and give in to the protesters (in the name of democracy, of course).


I always find that ''funny''. So when US citizen/protesters go to the white house armed and start throwing molotov cocktails, destroy stuff and/or even start shooting, Obama will step down and those protesters (also funny always how they use the word as they please (in another country/time it are terrorists or freedom fighters/rebels) will not be harmed??
edit on 20-2-2014 by Plugin because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 20 2014 @ 09:43 AM
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reply to post by Hellas
 


Yes this is my concern too, the problem is that if they use the army, sanctions from all EU and NATO allies. So they have to carry on with security forces and non-violent force, up against extremists with guns...

It feels like the west want Ukraine to "join us or die".



posted on Feb, 20 2014 @ 09:44 AM
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iRoyalty
reply to post by Hellas
 



It feels like the west want Ukraine to "join us or die".


I wouldn't worry about that. Putin will Never let the Nato dictate anything in his region.



posted on Feb, 20 2014 @ 09:44 AM
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Skyfloating
This one isnt as simple as "nice protestors vs. evil regime". Its more like pro-European Ukrainians vs. pro-Russia Ukrainians. Ukraine has always been very divided in this respect with half the country giving allegiance to Russia and the other half to Europe. This "evil regime" was democratically elected so the protestors dont really have the right to use bombs and violence against it. On the other hand, the Government has broken many principles of Democracy such as oppressing dissent, banning demonstrations, locking away opponents. Many of the post-Communist countries have had difficulties adjusting to Democracy. Some were lucky and got really good and fair-minded Leadership but the Ukrainians werent that lucky.


Yes they have had a hard time, and as I have said I full support the OPPOSITION wanting a transition. I do not support the extremists and the violence and they must be dealt with, however the west will not allow this because you should "never waste a good crisis".



posted on Feb, 20 2014 @ 09:46 AM
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reply to post by Hellas
 


That does not bode well for many people though, not because of Putin but it's the case of an unstoppable force (NATO) and an immovable object (Russia).



posted on Feb, 20 2014 @ 09:48 AM
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Plugin
I always find that ''funny''. So when US citizen/protesters go to the white house armed and start throwing molotov cocktails, destroy stuff and/or even start shooting, Obama will step down and those protesters (also funny always how they use the word as they please (in another country/time it are terrorists or freedom fighters/rebels) will not be harmed??


I agree, I wanted to find a report that was done saying how Obama is quick to tell the Ukrainian President to step down and give in to the protesters, when Obama has visibly ignored his citizens since day one!



posted on Feb, 20 2014 @ 09:58 AM
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reply to post by iRoyalty
 


Yes that he even can say such a thing! it's blasphemy.
edit on 20-2-2014 by Plugin because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 20 2014 @ 10:06 AM
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Many in the Ukraine cannot forget what happened to their grandparents under Soviet rule during the collectivization of the farms during the early 1930's. It is hard to trust a regime that is essentially a cloaked communist state ... Putin was/is KGB at heart. Millions starved to death and this first great holocaust of the 20th century is not lost to the Ukrainian mindset. Not that they fared any better under Nazi rule either. After losing so many satellite states after the dissolution of the Soviet Union I believe that Russia is not very keen on losing it's last barrier to the west in Europe as far as a security standpoint goes. Now for the EU ... misery loves company, especially one that has lunch money.



posted on Feb, 20 2014 @ 10:23 AM
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cprnicus
Many in the Ukraine cannot forget what happened to their grandparents under Soviet rule during the collectivization of the farms during the early 1930's. It is hard to trust a regime that is essentially a cloaked communist state ... Putin was/is KGB at heart. Millions starved to death and this first great holocaust of the 20th century is not lost to the Ukrainian mindset. Not that they fared any better under Nazi rule either. After losing so many satellite states after the dissolution of the Soviet Union I believe that Russia is not very keen on losing it's last barrier to the west in Europe as far as a security standpoint goes. Now for the EU ... misery loves company, especially one that has lunch money.


I had not considered this point, from my view of the 23 years I have been present on this earth I have not seen Russia as being any worse than NATO controlled states. So perhaps I have a bias in that sense.

However it still does not mean that the EU and NATO can push their agenda on the Ukrainian people with guerilla tactics and proxy rioters.



posted on Feb, 20 2014 @ 10:27 AM
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You should be asking "Who Benefits"... Follow the money.




posted on Feb, 20 2014 @ 10:33 AM
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reply to post by RocksFromSpace
 


Both parties, with Russia in control they can make the gas going into Europe as expensive as they like, if EU take control they can make it as cheap as they like.



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