Is Christianity inherently discriminatory

reply to post by ketsuko

But I think I've gone around on this subject with you before. I think there are several basic lists of things God warned us against. The 10 Comandments, the Sermon on the Mount, the Golden Rule, the 7 Deadly Sins ... those are good places to start although the 7 deadly sins are more character flaws that lead to excesses that can lead you into trouble. They represent a basic lack of control over one's self.

Okay. So, according to your beliefs, we need to ask God for forgiveness for our character flaws and our lack of self control.

And I also explained that when you wrong someone you need to ask their forgiveness, but since you were warned against wronging others by God first, you also need his forgiveness. All you really need to do, is believe and ask for forgiveness. For Christians, it's belief in Christ that leads to belief in God. Pretty simple really. Prayer is all that is required along with a sincere desire to not do wrong again (attitude of repentance).

Okay. So, according to your belief, we need to ask for forgiveness from those that we think we have wronged as well. Got it.

reply to post by FreeWillAnomaly

The Father has to approve for you to come to His Son, and then His Son has to recognize you. That is the only way to be forgiven for your sins.

Okay. So according to your belief, first God has to approve me, then Jesus has to recognize me, then I can be forgiven for my shortcomings. Got it.

Here's the thing, Christians don't seem to have a cohesive understanding of their own doctrine and have all sorts of different ideas about the one and only narrow path to God.

The way I was taught growing up, was this:

And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

reply to post by windword


You can not live by God's Word and have the precepts that are of God without God's Spirit. First the Father has to approve for you to come to His Son, and then you come to the Father through His Son.

You try to oversimplify things. You are too busy thinking like a human to consider that God does not think like a human.

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. "
biblehub.com...

Not the only passage showing it.

ArtemisE
reply to post by FreeWillAnomaly

 

But the children of baals got death and eternal torment?

This is gonna sound confrontational but I gotta.... so are the other. Races of man inferior by blood to Jews in gods eyes?

We can not judge who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell. Only God does. He did not tell us what became of the children of those who worshiped Baal and were killed, but He did tell us that children of Satan, children of Baal included, are destined for the lake of fire. Personally, I highly doubt that any child who has not reached an age where they could make a free will choice has ever been sent to Hell. It just does not line up with Scripture. Children are innocent in God's eyes. It is much more likely that they skipped the suffering of this world and are with Him, but I can not know for certain and I can not judge either way. It is not my place to try to anyways.

No ethnicity is inferior to another. We can only be children of God by adoption. Only Jesus is truly His Son. That means Jews were and those who accept the Truth in the modern world are only adopted children. We are descendants of Adam, not God. That goes for all ancestries.

However, your bloodline does affect your spiritual struggle. If you ask God to free you from the sins of your ancestors, He will. That is oversimplifying it though, because it is a process and a struggle. We are all born in sin. Keep that in mind.

olaru12
I find it astonishing how humans can think they know the mind of God.

Seems a bit arrogant. And you can't use the Bible because men wrote the Bible. Old testament didn't work so they took the easy way out and wrote the New Testament, threw out a bunch of books and the men eventually decided on the KJV. and now call it the holy word of God.

We can know as much about the mind of God as He told us. He teaches us to stop thinking like humans and think like God instead.

The Word of God is found in the Bible. When you read it, especially the Gospels, you will either believe what you read or not. If you are His child, you will hear his voice. He already knew what decision you would make before you were born.

Yes, the Scriptures have been distorted, but the precepts necessary to attain righteousness and think like God are intact. Remember that "like God" is a strange phrase. It is the phrase Satan tempted man with to fall. Like God has different meanings. None are actually like God, but at the same time we are His adopted children and learn from Him. Learning to think like God involves throwing away your pride, worldly perceptions, and worldly precepts.

So while the Bible was written by men, the Word of God is found in the Bible. That does not make all of the Bibles, especially the modern Bibles, the Word of God. What is most important is your personal relationship with God. Everything depends on that. Choosing God, and your relationship with Him, over the world and human thought. Remember that the Bible is a compilation of ancient texts, most of which do contain the Word of God in them - even if many of the intricacies have been distorted by men for personal gain, the precepts necessary to attain righteousness are in tact and that is what matters.

Regarding the idea that the Old Testament doesn't count, how do those people who maintain this notion manage to reconcile that with Matthew 5:17? -

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

reply to post by ReturnofTheSonOfNothing


Everything Jesus said and did confirms that He was sent by the Father, the God that is talked about and who's Word can be found in the OT.

People who say that generally don't like to think about the wrath of the Father and downplay the severity of sin and what it really causes in peoples lives. Your sins affect those around you to an extent you can barely comprehend, and that is if you are trying which most are not.

reply to post by FreeWillAnomaly

You can not live by God's Word and have the precepts that are of God without God's Spirit. First the Father has to approve for you to come to His Son, and then you come to the Father through His Son.

You try to oversimplify things. You are too busy thinking like a human to consider that God does not think like a human.

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. "

I don't know man, we WERE talking about forgiveness, and how to obtain it. I don't see anything about forgiveness in your citation. Before I quoted Jesus on forgiveness, you were unable to answer me on how to find forgiveness, according to your Jesus and the Bible. You think you know your religion, but you don't. You're making it up to suit your ego, as you go along.

I think that you're the one over complicating things, in your effort to prove to yourself that you're, somehow superior, more forgiven than I, more loved than I, holier than I, right?

And He said, “Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! For ye laden men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.

windword
reply to post by FreeWillAnomaly

 

You can not live by God's Word and have the precepts that are of God without God's Spirit. First the Father has to approve for you to come to His Son, and then you come to the Father through His Son.

You try to oversimplify things. You are too busy thinking like a human to consider that God does not think like a human.

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. "

I don't know man, we WERE talking about forgiveness, and how to obtain it. I don't see anything about forgiveness in your citation. Before I quoted Jesus on forgiveness, you were unable to answer me on how to find forgiveness, according to your Jesus and the Bible. You think you know your religion, but you don't. You're making it up to suit your ego, as you go along.

Sadly, or whatever, Christ did say that He spoke in parables just to keep some from understanding Him. If they understood Him then He would have to forgive them. This is simply something that He didn't want to do and said as much. He also gave His disciples the power to forgive or not. I understand that this doesn't mesh up with other thing He said and the current flap about forgiving. I understand that but it just doesn't, on its face, look like current ideas about the subject.

In one case Jesus told the disciples to go from town to town. If any town rejected them, they were to dust off their feet as a testimony against said town and that it would be more tolerable fro Sodom and Gomorrah in the judgment than for the town that reject you. I am just asking but does that in any way shape or form sound like anything we here in the modern forgiveness kick and forgiveness scripture cheery picking?

ReturnofTheSonOfNothing
Regarding the idea that the Old Testament doesn't count, how do those people who maintain this notion manage to reconcile that with Matthew 5:17? -

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

I already covered that one with you but you never answered. The OT was manily for the HEBREWS and them alone. The christians are under a new covenant themselves. Jesus came to fulfill the OLD COVENANT FIRST. then after he did before he left he made a new one with the NON HEBREWS and those who believed in his words as to who he was.

SO its not christians are ignoring the law it is that people have failed to realize that the OTrules are not for them to follow. the Old Testament is rich in revelation for believers of all ages about the character and nature of God, how he works in the lives of people, and how we can trust and obey Him. It is also full of revelation that was given directly to Israel and is directly applied to them only.

LOok at the last sentence I posted there. SPECIFICALLY FOR ISRAEL and its PEOPLE the HEBREWS/JEWS

As believers who exist after Christ came and died on the cross, we are NT Christians. Paul clearly reveals this in Eph.2:20-22 when he talks of the NT church being built upon the foundation of the apostles.

In Matt.22:37-39 Jesus summed up the God’s moral standard underlying the entire Ten Commandments. They are “Love the Lord your God…” and “Love your neighbor as yourself.” All of the Ten Commandments are restated in the NT to apply to us except one, the keeping of the Sabbath. That one was part of the Mosaic Covenant and does not apply to us. Paul says in Col. 2:16-17 that believers are not to be judged because they do not keep the Sabbath or other Jewish holidays.

The Ten Commandments do not apply to us today because they are part of the Mosaic Covenant, but the moral standards, which they reflect and which are repeated in the NT, do apply to us. Again all of the commandments are repeated in one form or another in the NT except the Sabbath. The Sabbath was for Israel as a nation, not for the church.

SO HOW CAN WE BREAK A LAW THAT DOES NOT APPLY TO US?
Meaning We cant BREAK the LAW if we are not UNDER IT. I hope you are keeping up.

reply to post by Logarock


People do not preach the Gospel as Jesus said it and as it is written. If they preached exactly what Jesus really said, many people would want to go to another church because they only go to church to *feel* like they are doing the right thing. You can't get donations if only the solid soil is left in your church, because most of the soil is not solid. Many preachers have given in and started saying what is pleasing to the ears. Take Olsteen's church for example.

You have to read it for yourself and you have to want to understand what you are reading.

reply to post by yuppa


Simply false but I don't feel like debating it.

ReturnofTheSonOfNothing
Regarding the idea that the Old Testament doesn't count, how do those people who maintain this notion manage to reconcile that with Matthew 5:17? -

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Simple. Another couple of books cover it in detail.

Galatiains 3:6-18
6Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. 10For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM." 11Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." 12However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM." 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"-- 14in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. 16Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. 17What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

A real in-depth study for some of the changes would most of Hebrews and Romans.

But most simply: since the law is a curse, the one who saves us from the curse by paying the price of the curse without having himself merited the curse literally fulfills the law.

FreeWillAnomaly
reply to post by yuppa

 

Simply false but I don't feel like debating it.

BS. you dont want to debate it because its spot on. NT christians are NOT UNDER THE OT COVENANT and as SUCH ARE NOT SUBJECT TO ITS LAWS,EXCEPT THOSE SPECIFICALLY SPOKEN BY JESUS HIMSELF FOR THEM TO FOLLOW.

windword
reply to post by FreeWillAnomaly

 

You can not live by God's Word and have the precepts that are of God without God's Spirit. First the Father has to approve for you to come to His Son, and then you come to the Father through His Son.

You try to oversimplify things. You are too busy thinking like a human to consider that God does not think like a human.

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. "

I don't know man, we WERE talking about forgiveness, and how to obtain it. I don't see anything about forgiveness in your citation. Before I quoted Jesus on forgiveness, you were unable to answer me on how to find forgiveness, according to your Jesus and the Bible. You think you know your religion, but you don't. You're making it up to suit your ego, as you go along.

I think that you're the one over complicating things, in your effort to prove to yourself that you're, somehow superior, more forgiven than I, more loved than I, holier than I, right?

And He said, “Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! For ye laden men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.

You can not be forgiven for your sins without Jesus. I was telling you what is necessary to come to Jesus.

I don't care to prove anything to you or myself. Whether or not I am forgiven is up to Jesus. Just because I call Him Lord does not mean I will go to Heaven. He has to recognize me as His own.

Your old english quote of this Scripture:

Jesus replied, "And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them." Like 11:46

Has nothing to do with anything. Do you always read the Bible in Old English? I would not recommend it. It is a different dialect and no more pure than updated versions.

yuppa

FreeWillAnomaly
reply to post by yuppa

 

Simply false but I don't feel like debating it.

BS. you dont want to debate it because its spot on. NT christians are NOT UNDER THE OT COVENANT and as SUCH ARE NOT SUBJECT TO ITS LAWS,EXCEPT THOSE SPECIFICALLY SPOKEN BY JESUS HIMSELF FOR THEM TO FOLLOW.

It would be far more simple to state that if he didn't feel like debating it, he wouldn't have posted on this thread in the first place. This "I don't care" verbalisation with an accompanying must talk about it at all behavior is lying to ourselves. It's a common problem of humanity.

yuppa

FreeWillAnomaly
reply to post by yuppa

 

Simply false but I don't feel like debating it.

BS. you dont want to debate it because its spot on. NT christians are NOT UNDER THE OT COVENANT and as SUCH ARE NOT SUBJECT TO ITS LAWS,EXCEPT THOSE SPECIFICALLY SPOKEN BY JESUS HIMSELF FOR THEM TO FOLLOW.

Jesus is the Law fulfilled. If you follow Jesus you follow the Law anyways. You can not disregard the OT.

I'm not going to debate with you.

reply to post by Logarock


That was not a parable that I quoted, that was the Sermon on the Mount. Are you trying to tell me, that in this Bible story, Jesus was deliberately misleading the masses into thinking they would receive forgiveness as they forgave others?

FreeWillAnomaly

yuppa

FreeWillAnomaly
reply to post by yuppa

 

Simply false but I don't feel like debating it.

BS. you dont want to debate it because its spot on. NT christians are NOT UNDER THE OT COVENANT and as SUCH ARE NOT SUBJECT TO ITS LAWS,EXCEPT THOSE SPECIFICALLY SPOKEN BY JESUS HIMSELF FOR THEM TO FOLLOW.

Jesus is the Law fulfilled. If you follow Jesus you follow the Law anyways. You can not disregard the OT.

I'm not going to debate with you.

edit on 21-2-2014 by FreeWillAnomaly because: (no reason given)

Well you obviosly DIDNT READ MY ENTIRE POST. The OT law WAS fulfilled yes BUT that MOSAIC COVENANT was for the HEBREWS/JEWS ALONE AND ISRAEL. I tell you what Ill even give you a link where i found the information,but only if you read it and do not dismiss it.

Christians and the OT confusion

Lo, and there was much wailing on ATS and gnashing of teeth..

reply to post by FreeWillAnomaly


Talking about the children being innocent and going to heaven. You've contradicted that with previous posts. The only way to heaven is thru Jesus. Also arnt we all born sinners? Plus there's the whole ignorance is no excuse thing. So the logic is that all the children of any race or creed that died without ever even hearing of the Hebrew god or Jesus. We're cast into the pit of fire to be tortured for all eternity!

That's a hell of a spin on the abortion issue! God doesn't just kill babies... He kills them then torments them for all eternity!!!

And I'm not just referring to the children of baals followers.. Literally billions of innocents not lucky enough to be born before the free flow of information. God has in some cases demanded there deaths, and in all cases cast them into the pit of fire!


Why would anyone glorify such a diety! I mead he makes hitler look like a slacker.