People misunderstand Non-Duality, let's clear up any confusion here...

Thus, as the one realizes the reality of non-duality,
There is freedom to enjoy and have fun with
the illusion of duality....
Let's discuss and debate!

reply to post by Krazysh0t




Yes let's look at the definition of Duality:

Dualism (from the Latin word duo meaning "two")[1] denotes a state of two parts. The term 'dualism' was originally coined to denote co-eternal binary opposition, a meaning that is preserved in metaphysical and philosophical duality discourse but has been diluted in other usages to indicate a system which contains two essential parts.

Based on this definition, I think we can agree on some crucial points.

Vision. Stars are always above us, but we only see them when they are contrasted against a background. This applies to the naked eye, and any other instrument of observation. The stars are always there, but duality (meaning the ability to recognize contrast, foreground/background) is the only way to actually see it.
You see your hand in front of you, not just because you have eyes, but because you can recognize the borders and distinguishable/contrasting features of your hand. Vision operates on the foundation of duality. Even in photographs- no contrasting pixels=no image. The recognition of This vs. other is necessary.


Hearing. We all know sound is a wave. Without the crest of the wave, there would be no sound. Without the trough of the wave again..no sound. Sound operates on the foundation of duality.

Touch. Same applies here, sensations coming from the nerves in our skin are only recognized, when there is a noticeable difference between sensations. Touch operates on the foundation of duality. No contrasting sensations = numbness, no feeling at all.

Thought and philosophy . Every thought is loaded with images, sounds, sensations, emotions, concepts and language. Thought is an observable phenomena and duality is its foundation. Take away duality and there would be no thought... and goodbye philosophies.


It doesn't matter if it's a thought in your mind, a feeling or emotion, an experience, a vision, a sound, an object or whatever instrument you use to observe existence, it needs contrast to be observable and recognized. Contrast is the duality.

So we can agree that yes, duality is the juxtaposition of two parts, but I think 'Contrast' is more of the operative word as opposed to looking at it through the limited lens of the number "2"'. To talk about non-duality that means NO thought, NO sense perception, NO experience, NO emotion, NO sensations. Now does that sound like an enlightened state or a comatose one?

Bluesma
Thus, as the one realizes the reality of non-duality,
There is freedom to enjoy and have fun with
the illusion of duality....
Let's discuss and debate!

Name one single thing in the known Universe that is non-dual.

Visitor2012


Name one single thing in the known Universe that is non-dual.

The idea here is that the entirety of the universe is one single thing.

ExquisitExamplE

Visitor2012


Name one single thing in the known Universe that is non-dual.

The idea here is that the entirety of the universe is one single thing.

That is still a dualistic definition. I know where you're getting at and I agree that all of the universe is one but that doesn't mean that its non-dual. How would you be able to describe that Universe without also referencing the empty space between stars?
Try to describe your Universe without reference to dualistic concepts. In other words, you can't mention stars, or any seperate forms within this so called one-universe, in fact you can't mention forms or things at all. It's impossible.

When did we start assuming that the language of everything is binary, the discussion of duality and non-duality is never going to have an impact because of our position in the system, if we do live in a closed non-dual universe we won't ever know in the bodies that give us separation and form in the first place. If there is an answer to this, you will find it once you leave, not while you're riding the rapids.

reply to post by Visitor2012


I'm curious as to how you've come to the conclusion that the universe is surrounded by "nothingness"? That would imply that the universe is finite and has definable boundaries, or that the universe has an "edge". As far as we can perceive at this point, the universe has no edge or boundary. It has yet to be conclusively proven whether or not the universe is actually infinite (I believe it is), but what I can tell you is that scientists have never observed an edge to the universe, nor have they observed this nothingness that you posit surrounds it.

Does the Universe Have an Edge?

Does the Universe have an edge, beyond which there is nothing?

Galaxies extend as far as we can detect... with no sign of diminishing.There is no evidence that the universe has an edge. The part of the universe we can observe from Earth is filled more or less uniformly with galaxies extending in every direction as far as we can see - more than 10 billion light-years, or about 6 billion trillion miles. We know that the galaxies must extend much further than we can see, but we do not know whether the universe is infinite or not. When astronomers sometimes refer (carelessly!) to galaxies "near the edge of the universe," they are referring only to the edge of the OBSERVABLE universe - i.e., the part we can see.

For me Oneness starts on the inside! First of all your mind needs to be one with you! You need to know what you are doing and why. Until now, there is no connection whatsoever to anyone else in the universe. Your concsious mind has some decisions to make at first, to see what parts of the world around you were created by you. As soon as you unified your mind and your soul and you start to accept and love yourself, you start to realise that everything that you love is you!
When you have arrived here, you will have learned forgiveness for yourself and with that there comes forgiveness for everyone else for acting the way they do towards you and towards themselves and each other, because you now really understand, that they don't understand. At least not at this moment. And you can now remember, that you were in the exact same trap as they are, and you can feel how they may feel in situations they acted strangely in, because their teacher is the same teacher, who teached you the exact same things and you, too, believed those things and acted in the way you were told to, before you realised that you h

ExquisitExamplE
reply to post by Visitor2012

 

Does the Universe have an edge, beyond which there is nothing?

Does your consciousness or your mind have an edge, beyond which there is nothing?!

reply to post by ExquisitExamplE


You completely misunderstood my post. I was responding to a post which suggested that the Universe is one single thing. I never said the universe was finite, the poster implied it when he described the Universe as 'one single thing' . And being defined as a 'thing' implies boundaries, implies finite. So the concept of the 'universe being one single thing' implies there is no-thing surrounding it.

The original challenge I presented to the poster, was to name one single aspect of the universe in non dualistic terms and using non dualistic observation (with any of our senses). In other words, people say the Universe is non-dual, and I simply challenged them to point out ANY non dualistic quality of existence. To aid in my point, I pointed out how all of our sense perceptions are duality-based. Being as such, how can anyone observe ANYTHING as non dualistic?

Astar316

ExquisitExamplE
reply to post by Visitor2012

 

Does the Universe have an edge, beyond which there is nothing?

Does your consciousness or your mind have an edge, beyond which there is nothing?!

First of all, there is no such thing as YOUR consciousness because you ARE consciousness. You do have a body, but you don't have a consciousness.

reply to post by Visitor2012


I fail to see how the idea of contrastness upholds this part of the definition of duality:

The term 'dualism' was originally coined to denote co-eternal binary opposition, a meaning that is preserved in metaphysical and philosophical duality discourse

Where is the opposition in contrastness? See your problem with your (personal) definition with duality is that it all focuses on the physical. REAL duality focuses on a separation of the mind and matter. It has nothing to do with contrastness. The opposition in duality is that something is either an element of the mind or an element of matter. I definitely posted a link earlier about this, but here another one:

Dualism and Mind

Dualists in the philosophy of mind emphasize the radical difference between mind and matter. They all deny that the mind is the same as the brain, and some deny that the mind is wholly a product of the brain. This article explores the various ways that dualists attempt to explain this radical difference between the mental and the physical world. A wide range of arguments for and against the various dualistic options are discussed.

This is traditional dualistic thought. Of course there are sub-sets to this school of thought as well, which the article is kind enough to breakdown for you.

To rebut all that, I say that both the mental and the physical all exist in the same universe, and therefore sub-sets of the overriding set called one. Meaning that they aren't separate entities after all.

reply to post by Visitor2012

Name one single thing in the known Universe that is non-dual.

Water, a tree, a horse, a house, a cat, a mouse. Duality is merely a linguistic convenience for a species unable to articulate any other way.

Visitor2012

ExquisitExamplE

Visitor2012


Name one single thing in the known Universe that is non-dual.

The idea here is that the entirety of the universe is one single thing.

That is still a dualistic definition. I know where you're getting at and I agree that all of the universe is one but that doesn't mean that its non-dual. How would you be able to describe that Universe without also referencing the empty space between stars?
Try to describe your Universe without reference to dualistic concepts. In other words, you can't mention stars, or any seperate forms within this so called one-universe, in fact you can't mention forms or things at all. It's impossible.

edit on 16-2-2014 by Visitor2012 because: (no reason given)

All this does is demonstrate the simplicity and failings of our spoken languages as well as how we communicate. It by no way proves that duality is a real thing.

reply to post by Visitor2012


okay....
Does consciousness or your mind have an edge, beyond which there is nothing?!

Seriously...
If you start to think about such a complex thing like duality and what it means, why do you think about the universe, when you could start with a fractal, that is much closer to you, and much easier to understand... You?!
Whenever you find and understand something about yourself, you will find a question answered you asked about something else.

I'm not trying to tell you, that you are wrong or something like that. You are as right, as I believe I am, but why would you start to think about duality at the edge of the universe. Nobody (except perhaps dr who) could answer questions about the edge of the universe, as no one ever really went there to look. But you can see yourself, and you can "hear" what you think and understand how you think, how your mind works. And I sincerly think this would be a much easier point to start with....

Still your mind and know all is well. Thats all there is to it.

reply to post by Krazysh0t

I fail to see how the idea of contrastness upholds this part of the definition of duality: The term 'dualism' was originally coined to denote co-eternal binary opposition, a meaning that is preserved in metaphysical and philosophical duality discourse

Duality can be the juxtaposition of somethiness with nothingness, there's your opposites. That pretty much takes care of the Entire observable Universe from Clusters of Atoms to clusters of Galaxies. I have no quarrels with the metaphysical and philosophical definitions of duality.

Astar316
reply to post by Visitor2012

 

okay....
Does consciousness or your mind have an edge, beyond which there is nothing?!

Seriously...
If you start to think about such a complex thing like duality and what it means, why do you think about the universe, when you could start with a fractal, that is much closer to you, and much easier to understand... You?!
Whenever you find and understand something about yourself, you will find a question answered you asked about something else.

I'm not trying to tell you, that you are wrong or something like that. You are as right, as I believe I am, but why would you start to think about duality at the edge of the universe. Nobody (except perhaps dr who) could answer questions about the edge of the universe, as no one ever really went there to look. But you can see yourself, and you can "hear" what you think and understand how you think, how your mind works. And I sincerly think this would be a much easier point to start with....

Where did I say that the Universe was finite ?

reply to post by Visitor2012


Empty space != nothingness. The difference being that matter or energy can exist in empty space, thereby making it filled space. Matter and energy cannot exist in nothingness.

Let me illustrate this with an example. Imagine a blank piece of paper as a universe. This universe for one is clearly finite because we can see the edges of the paper. We can think of the white space on the paper as empty space. All white space can be drawn on to create objects. So let's draw a circle. The circle now inhabits filled space on the paper, but the rest of the white space could be used to move the circle around. However we cannot take the circle off of the paper and suspend it in mid-air. The circle requires the paper to exist. That is the difference between nothingness and empty space in a nutshell.

The only place that nothingness could possibly exist, is outside the universe. This means that the universe would be finite. As another poster pointed out, while we do not know if the universe is finite or infinite, all evidence is pointing toward the infinite answer. Therefore, nothingness doesn't exist and there is no duality.

Krazysh0t

Visitor2012

ExquisitExamplE

Visitor2012


Name one single thing in the known Universe that is non-dual.

The idea here is that the entirety of the universe is one single thing.

That is still a dualistic definition. I know where you're getting at and I agree that all of the universe is one but that doesn't mean that its non-dual. How would you be able to describe that Universe without also referencing the empty space between stars?
Try to describe your Universe without reference to dualistic concepts. In other words, you can't mention stars, or any seperate forms within this so called one-universe, in fact you can't mention forms or things at all. It's impossible.

All this does is demonstrate the simplicity and failings of our spoken languages as well as how we communicate. It by no way proves that duality is a real thing.

edit on 16-2-2014 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)

I never said Duality was real. I said it's the means through which we can perceive existence. I agree, language is dualistic, EVERYTHING is dualistic. That was my original point. The topic was about NON-Dualism, and my argument was that non-duality as a perception...is NOT percievable. It doesn't exist because the word existence implies duality (EG. Existence vs. non-existence)

The challenge was that if people think non-duality is a reality (in ANY form) , name an example of it.

edit on 16-2-2014 by Visitor2012 because: (no reason given)