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Why do Christians believe in Free-will if these Bible Verses are saying God predetermined everything

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posted on Feb, 14 2014 @ 10:49 PM
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reply to post by arpgme
 


I personally wouldn't get too 'caught up' in the Adam and Eve story, or thinking of those people in ancient times, because it was revealed to me that some religions' history has been covered up. for example that story and many others were taken from an earlier story in their ancient history, the ancient Israelites that is. From the change of Jesus and the old testament there were large separations of interpertation of the scripture, to this day thousands of years later people are still debating over it.

But the interesting part of the whole story is that the God of Israel, no matter how many names are being called is the correct God. Still debating for 2,000 years? Of course that means it is REAL.

Free will is free will, so if a person were to believe in free will than they wouldn't believe in fate. I don't believe in fate. I believe that nature has the power to make things happen, it is the same thing Jesus referred to as the 'spirit.'




posted on Feb, 14 2014 @ 10:52 PM
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1 Peter 1:20
He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.


so he knew his son before he was sent to earth, so what? sounds pretty likely.



Ephesians 1:4-5
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--


"he chose us in him", so we are a part of him, that fits with the idea of the soul,
"and to be blameless in his sight" he wishes us to ascend to the heavens eventually
"he predestined..." so he knew, at SOME POINT he was going to send his son as ambassador to the earth, again, this falls under an umbrella plan for an architect who had created a world and a species, nothing about free will here...



Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.


this is pretty self explanatory, but... he created man to conform to the WAY his son is, so they too could be masters of spirit and will, in service to god, hence therefore being raised to Jesus as a brother in spiritual development



Ephesian 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,


see ephesian 1:4-5 explanation above.



Acts 4:28
They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.


go back to at least 4:23 and read it, you cant just pick and choose single lines out of context to determine facts. isnt that what the media does today??

this is from a larger passage which is a quote from the priests, this is not a direct statement from anyone of import.
this is simply a misconstrued idea put forth by a god fearing priest.


now, i am by no means a biblical "expert" but who is really? i see nothing in these passages to reference the existence, or lack thereof, of free will amongst humans.



posted on Feb, 14 2014 @ 10:55 PM
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reply to post by FreeWillAnomaly
 

And God knew your fate BEFORE YOU WERE EVEN BORN!
None of the verses that people use to back that up hold up to scrutiny.
Biblically, you have Jacob and Esau, where for some reason, it had to be that only one of them ended up as "God's son".
God "chose" Jacob but it was really retroactive back to his birth, only after he had lived half of his life already and had that encounter with either an angel or God while sleeping on a rock.



posted on Feb, 14 2014 @ 10:59 PM
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reply to post by ketsuko
 


No that is not what Charles pointed out!

He said there is a difference between knowing something will happen and making that something happen.

You are not God! Stop trying to set non-existent parameters on things just because you don't like not knowing what it's like to know everything so you decide to make things up about what it would be like to know everything and what it means. You do not define reality. God defines reality.



posted on Feb, 14 2014 @ 11:02 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Stop trying to set parameters on infinite power... You just said it was retroactive. How is that possible? It is simple - God is not limited by time. Those Scriptures do hold up to scrutiny but I am not going to debate with you about what you already know.

Also, it was over the inheritance of a specific covenant and not over being a child of God. Esau did break the overall covenant by taking wives from among the Canaanites. I had to go read about that again real quick. I haven't read that part of Genesis more than one time.

It is retroactive from one perspective, and proactive from another. Kind of like how you can enter a town and come across a beggar, or leave a town and come across a beggar.... What came first Jerusalem or Bethlehem?
edit on 14-2-2014 by FreeWillAnomaly because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 14 2014 @ 11:07 PM
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reply to post by FreeWillAnomaly
 


I thought that's what I was trying to say?

If I knew what the outcome of the Super Bowl was going to be. It wouldn't mean that we could just not play the entire NFL Season because then there would be no outcome to the Super Bowl because no one had played it.

See? Knowing a thing doesn't make it happen. It has to be played to actually happen. Just because I know it doesn't make them go out on the field and play.

God may know all that we will do because he's outside of space time, everywhere and everywhen, but his knowledge doesn't compel us to act. We don't have that knowledge, and we are anchored in space time. So even if He knows what we will do before we do, all we perceive is the here and the now and the choice we have to make. As far as we are concerned, the choice is free and freely made.



posted on Feb, 14 2014 @ 11:09 PM
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reply to post by FreeWillAnomaly
 

. . . infinite power...
According to what?

. . . God is not limited by time.
Meaning God is not going to die of old age, but I seriously don't think that the Bible goes into a discussion of the nature of time and how a god could operate outside of it.
I think that you may be retroactively inserting time travel theories into the Bible where they don't belong.
edit on 14-2-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 14 2014 @ 11:16 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


The Bible goes into detail about all of this. Anyone who reads it can see that.



posted on Feb, 14 2014 @ 11:17 PM
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reply to post by ketsuko
 

God may know all that we will do because he's outside of space time, everywhere and everywhen . . .
What would make you think that?
I mean, God, according to Genesis put the sun and moon in the sky to tell time, so in a way, He governs time, as in how long a day and a month are, but that does not mean that God operates outside of time.



posted on Feb, 14 2014 @ 11:20 PM
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reply to post by FreeWillAnomaly
 

Anyone who reads it can see that.
I read the Bible all the time but I think a lot of what people imagine that the Bible says is just so much theories that were made up in Medieval times.



posted on Feb, 14 2014 @ 11:21 PM
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ketsuko

arpgme
reply to post by charles1952
 

As Charles pointed out, there is a major difference between knowing that something will happen and it actually happening.


Small difference.



posted on Feb, 14 2014 @ 11:22 PM
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But it's not about knowing that "something" will happen. It's knowing everything things that happens.


Small difference



posted on Feb, 14 2014 @ 11:23 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 

Dear jmdewey60,

You know me well enough to know that I am easily confused. I'm going to need some help with your post.

God was around before the Universe was.
I think that is a modern construct and bears no relationship with the biblical writer's thinking.
You seem to be saying that the writers thought there was a Universe which had been already created before God showed up. Apparently, it had been created by something else.

I think that to them, there was a sort of universe that always existed, then they decided to make a nice place on a planet, for whatever reason.
I don't know who the "they" is, but I'm getting a frightened feeling that you're talking about aliens. So the aliens found a Universe already created (Did they come from another Universe?) with planets and everything, and they decided to pick out a planet and make it a nice place. What do you think the goal was with that?

So the aliens went to some trouble to make the earth a nice place, then they all left, more or less permanently, except for one alien that came back every now and then. That makes me think it wasn't made into a nice enough place. But one alien did come back, and found that inhabitants had appeared. In violation of the "Prime Directive," he started messing with the inhabitants, and that alien is God.

He became personally involved with them despite the fact that he was entirely alien, separated from the inhabitants by the largest possible cultural and technological gaps. With what purpose, make them pets? Teach them the alien way?

Dear jmdewey60, you might not be too surprised to learn that my faith in Christianity has not been disturbed by the possibility you recount.

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Feb, 14 2014 @ 11:24 PM
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jmdewey60
reply to post by FreeWillAnomaly
 

Anyone who reads it can see that.
I read the Bible all the time but I think a lot of what people imagine that the Bible says is just so much theories that were made up in Medieval times.


There is nothing imagined in anything that has been discussed here. God is clearly outside of the boundaries of time and makes it known. He created time itself.

You must not read the Bible all the time, because all of this is discussed in detail in the Bible.



posted on Feb, 14 2014 @ 11:39 PM
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reply to post by charles1952
 

I don't know who the "they" is, but I'm getting a frightened feeling that you're talking about aliens. So the aliens found a Universe already created (Did they come from another Universe?) with planets and everything, and they decided to pick out a planet and make it a nice place. What do you think the goal was with that?
I'm not giving my theory on where everything came from, I am giving my take on whet the writers of the Bible thought about it.
The world as we know it is the ground and the caverns and springs of water underneath it, the ocean that surrounds the land, and the sky, and then beyond that is some other place, where our world is sort of separate from that higher place, something that always just existed, and where the heavenly beings dwell.



posted on Feb, 15 2014 @ 03:13 AM
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reply to post by FreeWillAnomaly
 



FreeWillAnomaly
How can you sin against God if you have no free will? It is to deny the entire premise of our Faith.


God causes us to disobey him so that he can extend his mercy/forgiveness to us:



"For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." - Romans 11:32


And the Bible doesn't say you have a choice to believe. It says that God either extended his Grace to you so that you can be chosen or not. The works of man is as filthy rags and it is God who chose you and not the other way around:



For many are called, but few are chosen. - Matthew 22:14



FreeWillAnomaly
God DID predestine his children before they were even born BECAUSE he is not limited by time. He knew what choice you would make, of your own free will, before you made it.


If God already knows all of my actions, then he knows whether or not I will believe in him, I can't do anything against God's knowing, can I? So everything God already saw me doing, must be done. I wouldn't even know what he saw about my future so I would just go along with it unknowingly, just like a domino falling due to the others.

reply to post by ketsuko
 




So, I take it that since God knows everything about every thing about you and what you will do, you would just prefer not to exist and live your life?


I never said that the lack of free-will would make me suicidal, so to answer your question, no.




So, logically, if God knows what will happen, then it has to happen or else He doesn't, in fact, know what will happen.


Exactly. If God knows everything, then he knows everything I'll ever do. If I'm able to not do what he saw me doing and do something else completely random, then God is not all knowing, since I "surprised him" and had the power to change my own future (which would have been unpredictable to him - since he already saw me doing one thing but I did another).



posted on Feb, 15 2014 @ 04:32 AM
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reply to post by arpgme
 


Now move that understanding into infinity.

He could have made all of your choices, but you choose which ones you want to see through faith.

All of this has already happened within Father and The Holy Spirit, but we are now experiencing it in the Son - The Light - The Image.

Time could be the rate at which the spirit is manifest into the image.

Could that explain it?

Edit:
To visualize it, think of how you create something. You first form a concept, then you move it, through will, into the light(physicality)...

The concept is long since complete. I think it is church (the principles and practice of just creation) for the Son.

Edit again: Free will as it is thought, that we can do everything we want, is obviously not true. We cannot move our will into a reality away from God. All things are possible with God -- not without God.

Edit 3: Time could be the concept and the rate of time is the rate at which will is manifest into the image. (That sounds better than rate of will.)
edit on 2/15/2014 by Bleeeeep because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 15 2014 @ 05:18 AM
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reply to post by arpgme
 

And the Bible doesn't say you have a choice to believe. It says that God either extended his Grace to you so that you can be chosen or not. The works of man is as filthy rags and it is God who chose you and not the other way around:
For many are called, but few are chosen. - Matthew 22:14
Grace is what allows for the existence of a church which we can enter into.
It's used as a technical term in the Pauline writings of the New Testament to mean what in the new covenant fills the role of Israel in the old covenant.
Israel was chosen originally in the person, Jacob.
We, the church, are chosen in the person, Jesus.



posted on Feb, 15 2014 @ 05:44 AM
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Arpgme, what you fail to grasp is Jesus is Lord.

That's all.



posted on Feb, 15 2014 @ 07:48 AM
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reply to post by oktopus
 


This is completely off topic, and therefore your comment is spam.
We are not talking about what God or Jesus is, we are talking about whether or not The Bible is speaking for or against free-will.



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