Why do Christians believe in Free-will if these Bible Verses are saying God predetermined everything

God already chose Jesus Christ before he even created the world to die for the sins of the world, therefore it was destiny for Adam and Eve to sin and not choice:

1 Peter 1:20
He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

God already chose who will follow Jesus Christ and who will not:

Ephesians 1:4-5
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--

Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

Ephesian 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

God uses his power and will to force people to act out his will:

Acts 4:28
They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.

What do you think?

reply to post by arpgme


"What'll really cook your noodle is whether or not you would've broken the vase if I hadn't said anything..."

I'm not usually one to use movie quotes to make a point, but when dealing with the Bible and religious dogma in general... why not? It's all entertainment and control.

Predestination or free will? I foresee some heads exploding soon... or cognitive dissonance and silence.... 'cause I ain't God despite what alcohol tells me.

reply to post by arpgme

God already chose Jesus Christ before he even created the world . . .

The Greek says, foreknown.
The word, God, is not in there, and is just inserted as someone to know Jesus, by some logical argument based on doctrine rather than strictly linguistics.
Taken literally, he was known, which could have been really an ideal picture of what a man could possibly be.
Such a thing was not known here, previously, because of the failings inherent with a natural sort of breakdown in the universe as it exists.

God already chose who will follow Jesus Christ and who will not:

In Ephesians 1:4-5, it is saying that we would not be able to be good people if it wasn't for Jesus.

Romans 8:29 is about the church in general and doesn't apply individually.
Same thing with Ephesians 1:11.

God uses his power and will to force people to act out his will:

Acts 4 quotes Psalms about the way the kings of the earth act towards a holy God, and the people in those positions when Jesus came under their authority was really under a higher authority themselves, who sort of predicted that, and even would have preferred for them to act out their inner desires in such a way as for us looking back to see how far away from God they really were and how they failed to perform the jobs assigned to them, to maintain justice in the land.

reply to post by arpgme


Matters not.

reply to post by arpgme


Many are called yet few are chosen... That would imply that those who are "chosen" were so in this incarnation...

Upon hearing/learning the word of God it strikes the reader as true or false...

Though Jesus also says "my sheep hear my voice" which implies we knew him before this incarnation...

Tough call... I'll get back to this when i get home

S&F

reply to post by arpgme


Taking it outside Biblical context and just what Christians seem to believe. I get told often on ATS from Christians that I, a non-believer', am actually doing God's Will whether I know it or not. So it seems they believe I don't have free will. There is clearly a schism in Christendom whether we have free will or not…

Free will, again?

Oh, well. Just remember that there is a real and significant difference between knowing in advance that something will happen, and making that something happen.

I think that the problem lies with your translation of the Bible. The rendering of each verse can make the whole difference. For example, my Bible renders 1 Peter 1:20 as: "True he was fore known before the founding of the world... " So we can take that to mean that God had an intimate knowledge of his Son, and so therefore knew that he would be faithful to his tasks at that time (that is when he was sent to Earth, and not in the past).

reply to post by charles1952


But it's not about knowing that "something" will happen. It's knowing everything things that happens.

God knows every single action a person will take before they are even born, therefore there is no need for God to "test" anyone. God knows everything he will do before he does it, so all of God's actions are already set in stone, including all of the actions of everyone that already existed, since he already knew what all of their actions would be.

reply to post by brazenalderpadrescorpio


That verse translated from the Latin Vulgate is:

Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

That's not stating knowledge of how free-will would be made manifest, it's saying he was appointed.

reply to post by arpgme

God knows everything he will do before he does it, so all of God's actions are already set in stone

God's omniscience robbed him of his omnipotence

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


Your anecdote about unintelligent Christians is not evidence of Christianity being unintelligent. Your argument is not valid.

reply to post by brazenalderpadrescorpio

Putting words in my mouth doesn't make your argument valid.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


I'm not stating that that verse is in reference to free-will. You misread my statement.

reply to post by arpgme



Not all Christians believe in free will. The Christians that don't subscribe to what is known as "Reformed Theology", which is more commonly called "Calvinism". Among other differences,they believe in pre-determination, meaning that God chose His elect before the foundation of the world. The other side does believe in free will, but only from the human perspective. Even though God has already pre-determined everything, we don't know what those things are. We are still faced with decisions and choices, although it is easy to say that they are false choices because the outcome has already been determined by God. To say that man truly has free will would imply that God has no foreknowledge of anything, and would actually be surprised by some of the choices and decisions that we make. If that were the case then God could not be God. It is an interesting discussion.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


I think that what we have is failure to communicate. I misread your statement in that instance. Sorry about that.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy

Taking it outside Biblical context and just what Christians seem to believe.

Predestination and free will are theories and don't really have anything to do with the Bible.
The Bible doesn't talk about either one of those things.
It is just a crutch to avoid trying to figure out what the Bible really says, which is to be good people, something a lot of people find against their natures.

reply to post by arpgme

Dear arpgme,

First, nice to see you again. I can agree with a goodly hunk of what you've said. Sadly, not all of it. But, first, I should tell you that I'm not at my sharpest and could easily make a mistake. Watch out, I'm entering territory which is fuzzy for me. I have to study it more.

God was around before the Universe was. He'll be here when it's all stopped and dead. Eternal and Infinite are just two of His middle names. Consider what "time" means to an eternal "Being" who has all knowledge. Whatever else it may mean, I'm fairly sure that everything is "Now" to Him.

"God knows every single action a person will take before they are even born." Does that mean He knows what we will choose, but we still have to choose it? It's not so much that we have no choice, but in the eternal "Now," God knows what our choice is.

I also wonder if God's "now" changes? In any event, my suggestion is not to be so sure that the issue is cut and dry. It has not been obvious to thousands of the greatest minds of history, it will certainly not be obvious to mine (or perhaps yours either). Give it a little more thought.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952

God was around before the Universe was.

I think that is a modern construct and bears no relationship with the biblical writer's thinking.

I think that to them, there was a sort of universe that always existed, then they decided to make a nice place on a planet, for whatever reason.
Once they were successful at making an orderly place, one of these persons decided to make it a regular place to visit, then got personally involved in the lives of its inhabitants.

I have never met a Christian who did not believe in free will. To deny that we have free will is to deny that Jesus had to walk the earth and be tortured to death so that we would have a chance at salvation. How can you sin against God if you have no free will? It is to deny the entire premise of our Faith.

God gave all of his creations free will.

Before man fell, God gave angels free will.

As a result of free will, angels rebelled and those who rebelled tricked humans into falling (although of their own free will, because we chose to disobey God).

Because of this choice, the world is full of death and decay. We are exposed to the most evil things in existence. The world is in the hands of the god of this world (Satan).

God knows all that you will do before you are born, but that does not rob YOU, the human who is limited by time, of your free will. God is not limited by time. It is simply a dimension that He created and one that WE are limited by.

God DID predestine his children before they were even born BECAUSE he is not limited by time. He knew what choice you would make, of your own free will, before you made it. What choice is that? God or the world. You are in Satan's world. He left it in the hands of the evil one. If the Spirit of God is in you, the one in you is stronger than the one in this world. What more really matters? Look out in the world and what do you see occurring? Would you choose the world over God? Well, if the answer is yes - you deserve your fate then. And God knew your fate BEFORE YOU WERE EVEN BORN!

Why is this so hard for some people to understand?

"I don't get it. If he knows what I'm going to do, that means I don't have free will." HUH!? YOU ARE NOT GOD!

As for God testing people - yes he does, and he often uses Satan and demons for this purpose (he also uses them to show His children what they are doing when they sin). Satan makes bets with God that he can get humans to make the same mistake he made and has destined him for the lake of fire. Satan is the only one gambling, though, because God already knows the outcome for the human in question. This is illustrated in the Book of Job, one of the oldest books in existence.

God can test you all he wants. You can't test God, and to try is foolish.

He warned us people would think up silly ideas of who He is and depart from His Truth in favor of what pleases their ears....

Just go read the Word.

arpgme
reply to post by charles1952

 

But it's not about knowing that "something" will happen. It's knowing everything things that happens.

God knows every single action a person will take before they are even born, therefore there is no need for God to "test" anyone. God knows everything he will do before he does it, so all of God's actions are already set in stone, including all of the actions of everyone that already existed, since he already knew what all of their actions would be.

So, I take it that since God knows everything about every thing about you and what you will do, you would just prefer not to exist and live your life?

As Charles pointed out, there is a major difference between knowing that something will happen and it actually happening.

I might know the outcome of next year's Super Bowl. Does that mean we don't have to play out the entire NFL season or the game itself? You realize that we have to because if we don't, then what I know can't come to pass and my so-called foreknowledge is worthless ... paradox.

So, logically, if God knows what will happen, then it has to happen or else He doesn't, in fact, know what will happen.

What does that mean for us? Next to nothing. He doesn't see fit to tell us what we'll be doing tomorrow, two years from now, or even a few decades down the road. So, as far as we're concerned, whatever choices we make are entirely our own. But if you want to live you life second guessing whether or not God saw you doing this, that, or the other and trying to throw Him off the scent, be my guest. I'm not going to worry about it.

I'll just live my life doing the best I can to be that best I can.