Probability does not necessarily mean that there is free-will

arpgme


My point was to show that whether there is Order or Chaos, that doesn't mean that we have free-will. It could be that things are eternally fixed under some Law or Order; or it could also be things are eternally fixed under Chaos where things happen randomly and people are just acting through randomness (although the mind makes them believe they are in control).

I agree with you, whether you see life as ordered or chaotic does not mean you have free will.
Free will is a different concept to order and chaos, you cannot use one to disprove/prove free will.
Who decides what is Chaotic ? If Chaos at a higher level is order where is chaos?
If we did not understand the perfect movements of the celestial bodies would we could think their movements were chaos.
What is it that makes Order order and Chaos chaos?
The mind.

arpgme




Anyway, this thread is not about whether or not free-will exists. It's about the false assumption that if probability exists that must automatically mean that free-will does.

Yes. Probability does not disprove or prove free will.

reply to post by yeahright


That's a rather loose analogy.

Computers make "choices" according to predetermined algorithms. If the input variables are the same, the computer will make the same "choice" each time. Even if you link it to a random function (e.g. make choice X 60% of the time, and Y 40% of the time), the computer is still bound by those constraints.

The free will that living beings possess it is the ability to completely override programmed instincts to make a decision completely irrational and opposed to all parameter inputs.

For example, a computer programmed to make the choice "If hungry then eat," will, predictably, always eat when hungry.

A human, on the other hand, has the free will to override that impulse (and all others). A human has the ability to be hungry and refuse to eat, even if it means death by starvation. Such is the province of free will.

Everyone has the free will to override their base instincts and choose better ways to act and live. The shame is that so few people do.

This is a tricky question, not only because of the way it was posed, but because the concepts we are trying to discuss might as well be TOO ADVANCED for us to comprehend.

First of all, what does it mean for a particle to "choose"? Certainly you are not equating a human's "ability" to choose (even if it is not a free choice) with whatever it means for a particle to "choose."

The fact that we can even talk about the concept of free will shows that we've been thinking about the possibility of having free choices or not. That in and of itself is pretty astonishing.

Furthermore, free will might be an ILLUSION. And the illusion of having free will may appear (to us) as real as having free will anyway. So even if it is an illusion... it is the greatest ILLUSION of all time.

coolcatt
reply to post by arpgme

 

what if i am hungry and i go to a supermarket and CHOOSE what to eat is that freewill

I think you mite have to rethink this one fella.

But what if destiny made you choose WHAT you chose?

HUMBLEONE

coolcatt
reply to post by arpgme

 

what if i am hungry and i go to a supermarket and CHOOSE what to eat is that freewill

I think you mite have to rethink this one fella.

But what if destiny made you choose WHAT you chose?

My head hurts

The idea of free-will is too absolute. Theoretically we probably could predict every human behaviour if we knew every single law of science that exists and every factor involved in every decision. In practice that would be impossible though. That doesn't mean we don't have freedom of choice though, but how can we prove whatever choices we have made weren't influenced or directed by external stimuli?

twfau
The idea of free-will is too absolute. Theoretically we probably could predict every human behaviour if we knew every single law of science that exists and every factor involved in every decision. In practice that would be impossible though. That doesn't mean we don't have freedom of choice though, but how can we prove whatever choices we have made weren't influenced or directed by external stimuli?

If you've ever read Bruce Hood's "Incognito", he brings up a good point on free will. There was a case where a middle aged man, completely "normal", began to have pedophile thoughts, something he was never interested in before. When his brain was scanned, they found a small tumor growing inside his brain. They removed his tumor and the man returned to his normal non-pedophile self. A few years later he began feeling these urges again. When they scanned his brain... the tumor had returned.

Really makes you wonder who really is in control...

onequestion
reply to post by arpgme

 

When you set your alarm to wake up in the morning,

Explain the choice you make to either get out of bed or to go back to sleep.

All hail the snooze button.

reply to post by arpgme


I'm a huge lover of probability. One thing I have to say about it is that uncertainty is a fundamental, elemental part of it. Probability is tied to uncertainty, the concept of information is born from these, randomness (chaos) is elemental too.

But uncertainty always describes a relationship between an observer and observed. For instance, its meaningless to talk about the "uncertainty of the reality of the Apollo moon landings." You need to include an observer in the language. So you can talk about a conspiracy dude's uncertainty of the landings, or you can talk about that uncertainty for the astronauts(?) involved, and they are very different things. When you talk about uncertainty, you are talking about X's uncertainty about Y. When you talk about unknownness, you must talk about fact A being unknown to person B. You can't talk about whether a fact is "unknown", without at least implying who it is unknown to.

So the simple fact is that predetermination, which is the knowledge of what's going to happen, exists on a per observer basis. When I look at the details of a weather system unfolding, I see chaos. But to an all knowing God, it could be unfolding according to perfect predetermined order. What I can't say is absolutely whether its order or chaos, without saying for whom it is order or choas. My "chaos" may be God's order.

I think you forgot about wisdom:


Proverbs 8:12-31

New International Version (NIV)




12
“I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence;
I possess knowledge and discretion.

13
To fear the Lord is to hate evil;
I hate pride and arrogance,
evil behavior and perverse speech.

14
Counsel and sound judgment are mine;
I have insight, I have power.

15
By me kings reign
and rulers issue decrees that are just;

16
by me princes govern,
and nobles—all who rule on earth.

17
I love those who love me,
and those who seek me find me.

18
With me are riches and honor,
enduring wealth and prosperity.

19
My fruit is better than fine gold;
what I yield surpasses choice silver.

20
I walk in the way of righteousness,
along the paths of justice,

21
bestowing a rich inheritance on those who love me
and making their treasuries full.



22
“The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;

23
I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning, when the world came to be.

24
When there were no watery depths, I was given birth,
when there were no springs overflowing with water;

25
before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,

26
before he made the world or its fields
or any of the dust of the earth.

27
I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,

28
when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,

29
when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.

30
Then I was constantly at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,

31
rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.

reply to post by oktopus


What are you talking about? Can you use your own words instead of spamming by posting the bible?

reply to post by arpgme


Probability and free will are reflections of what is really there....the unknown.

reply to post by arpgme


Are you insulted by the bible? You're just another lord of darkness, right? "River of life" Sad ones..

reply to post by arpgme


I think there is no such thing as chaos -- just variations of order. Could pure chaos even create? No, because there is no order to it, so it is nothing -- it does not exist.

I think order is a causation, not just a cause or just an effect.

I think what you're really asking is: what does God create with?

Look at it like this... where does stuff come from? Where does order come from? Where does the light come from? If you think it is chaos, where does chaos come from? You should soon realize that nothing comes from nothing... what is created is not from nothing, but from something that always is, and will be.

I think it is his consciousness that creates his concepts with his will.

I think Father, Holy Spirit, and Son are infinite.

Thinking too deeply on this topic can really make your head hurt!

I would say the chance is higher for Life to be governed by Laws rather than by Probability/Chaos alone.

There is a certain "order" to things - even those chaotic events that appear completely random. Nothing truly random can take place within a realm that is based on rules and logic. For example, I can imagine a million dollars in a suitcase, but that doesn't mean it will appear in my room just because I will such a thing to happen. What I can do is take actions that will result in the million dollar case being placed in my room eventually.

If probability/chaos were the real driving forces behind creation, then we would not have patterns to recognise in this universe. The truth is that there are an abundance of patterns to notice for those who look, so this suggests that Laws probably do govern Life.

What does this mean in the broader debate? It probably suggests Determinism is more likely than Free Will. As the OP correctly states, this does NOT mean we don't have meaningful choices to make. Just that they might not be Free of the Hands of Fate.

reply to post by oktopus

oktopus
reply to post by arpgme

 

Are you insulted by the bible? You're just another lord of darkness, right? "River of life" Sad ones..

And here comes the judgment from a so-called "Christian". Isn't it a sin to Judge and say lies against people? Did I ever say I was insulted by a Bible? That is an assumption that you made.

All I said was, instead of spamming something that I could have read on my own, why not speak for yourself? And the REAL reason why I even said this at all is because I didn't understand what you were trying to say by those bible verses, NOT because I was insulted.

You were so quick to "Judge" which is a sin by the way.

Really interesting idea and I've thought about this myself. One of the oldest philosophical questions, does free will really exist or is everything pre-determined?

We appear to have free will. We can choose to do this or that.

But consider that every decision we make as humans is done by our brain which is just a lump of organic matter which is governed by the laws of physics like everything else. So it's all just a series of chemical reactions happening in the brain. Do you have control over the chemical reactions happening in your brain governing how it works and governing your behaviour? So perhaps free will is an illusion and we are just multi-cellular reproducing biological organisms operating according to the laws of physics which we have no real control over.

therealguyfawkes
reply to post by yeahright

 

That's a rather loose analogy.

reply to post by yeahright


Free like a free lunch, but you can't take the will to a reality that is free of others' will.

That's about sum of the limitations right?

Are we free to operate outside of God's channel? I don't think so... as all that exists must be within God's channel.