Union vs. non Union... my views and yours

reply to post by sulaw


Hey we are union brothers so I can say... its called prima donna. I thinks it Italian for non union cry baby

Unions are like church's, they are great until the people running them screw it up.
The smaller unions seem to work the best from my point of view. The state and federal unions are terrible. Take a good look at the post office to see how terrible a union can be. It's great if your in it.

reply to post by Dimithae


Second! Everything and I mean EVERYTHING you just said! Bravo!

reply to post by tinner07


Yes you can! I'm a bit dyslexic with words... And thank you for correcting that, I literally won't forget how to spell that again.

tinner07
bottom line.... enjoy your weekend? thank a union worker

Bottom line....what have unions done for me lately?

I know we have a 40 hour work week and that's very nice that 100 years ago unions were working to get that passed as normal. Well, it is now. So that begs the question of why we still even have unions, doesn't it? What do you want, a 20 hour work week with full time pay? Union members have got to get over this "We got you 40 hours a week" BS. The State mandates it, along with 1.5x for overtime over 40 hours. It's the law whether or not a union is or ever was present.

YOUR unions sounds a bit different than the ones I have experience with (and better), and your union also isn't typical. Let me tell you about the one union I was forced to join. I made the minimum wage of $1.60 an hour. There was only ONE THING the union wanted from me, and that is that I join for $10.00 a month. In return they gave me minimum wage and no benefits that were not mandated by the state already. That meant zero health benefits, just to start. Now, I figure my experience with unions is atypical. They aren't all as inept as this one was, so I'm not claiming this one represents all unions, but it did and still does exist.

But here's another example, this time of a carpenter's union. I was tasked with revising the interior of a building by carving out a room in an existing open office space to use for a new computer system. I put out bids and got back estimates. One was for $7500; the other for $30,000. I chose the low bid. The company came in, did a perfectly competent job to my specifications, and left. A few days later I got a complaint THROUGH MY BOARD that we had not used "union labor" therefore everyone was all mad at me. WHY should I use "union labor"? because they were well trained and did a perfect job. LUCKILY there was no agreement between the union and the City that forced them to use union labor (like happens all over the country) But basically they expected me to spend over $20K more for union labor when I could get the job done competently by a licensed contractor for much less. But the union didn't like it that I saved the taxpayers over $20,000.

Now just what did the union provide? Nothing substantial; just political grief. In the Marconi Center in San Francisco there is an agreement that union labor MUST BE USED to set up exhibits. A friend of mine has an "exhibit in a cardboard tube" that you pull out of the tube, flip a lever, and it expands into a display. (Very clever design). then you lock it in place with a single screw. Could my friend use a screwdriver on this single screw? NO. Instead he had to call in "union labor" because, he was told by a union member, he might hurt himself if he did it. Price: $150 to turn a screw.

THIS is the kind of outrage unions pull all the time. You gripe about a 'living wage" then charge $150 to turn a screw. This artificially inflates prices to way more than they ought to be and has not a damn thing to do with McDonald's workers. Now ask about union pension funds. Who controls many of them? The Mafia. Organized crime. Not surprising considering the union leaders are people like Jimmy Hoffa. Unions are fraught with corruption and Hoffa is just one popular example.

And don't even get me started about teachers' unions whose sole reason for existence is to extort dues and keep dead wood teachers at the expense of children. Teachers in my area make $100K/year with benefits and yet the union wants MORE money to throw down the rat's hole that is an education system in this country--even after we spend more per capita than any other country in the world and turn out an inferior product.

The idea that "union worker" = competence is a complete myth. Unions have done more to stifle the overall economy and cause shoddy workmanship than any other organization in the country, and THAT'S why manufacturing has moved overseas.

And when it comes back (and it's already started), the work will be done by robots. Try unionizing them.

reply to post by sulaw


Yes Oklahoma is ibew

And yes they are primma-donnas

But that's because electricians

Are the best of the 3 jobsite trades

Forget plumber or hvac

Go electric

reply to post by Hoosierdaddy71


Kinda what I'm saying. I think we have less than 500 guys. What people dont realize building trades dont work for any single company typically.

reply to post by tinner07


There are really two large groups with unions and they need to be always discussed differently. I had been a shop steward when much younger in a public sector union, so saw that side, then founded my own company, grew it into 500 employees over 35 years and over 20 mils gross income. My company was harmed and trashed in several attempted unionizations that failed and I aw negatives up-close. The Nat. Labor Relations Board is a pro-union kangaroo court that is so one sided its a joke. And union lawyers, like so many, are just criminal in their tactics and ethics. I think the US Constitution never intended to protect and reward lying. What too many lawyers seem to do is to base their actions on lies and basically say "can you prove we are lying" and there is never a penalty for to to the lawyers. They should be disbarred for fabricating any legal action- 3 strikes and your out. Instead often lying earns them money and is rewarded.

So my opinion- there are certain jobs like police, fire fighters, Steel Mills, Mines that have extraordinary risks and where unions are needed to protect workers. But the other large group is public employees who also get the additional protections of Civil Service. In my view that is too much, one or the other, not both.

I have seen government up close and it seldom matches the productivity of the private sector and both political parties choose staff based on political patronage which means job are rewards for donating money. Basically, in effect, they sometimes sell jobs to raise money for the parties. This corrupts the process and of course, they are seldom fired for incompetency.

Unions are not needed in government service or education, they inhibit competition, prevent rooting out incompetency and inflate costs and our taxes. Unions are most needed and positive in professions that involve risk of life, after that, they mostly harm the general public and harm job growth and productivity which is the core value that determines the success of any nation. Unions want all workers, good and bad, treated the same, they harass and block the central and essential task of good management- trying to improve efficiency and productivity which in the end is best for all. Unions are only best for some, seldom are best for the entire community.

Unions, I believe they are a thing of the past here in the US, Unions originally were designed to help the workers to be able to work in a place safely and get paid a fair days wages.

But today I believe they are a thing of the past and need to be done away with, here me out. Since Unions we have established OSHA, EPA, DNR, MSHA and the list can go on and on. Back in the days when Unions were established there was nothing out there for Medical insurance, protecting the worker from disciplinary actions, or even wage negotiations (minus a fair days wages) and list can go on and on.

The problem I see with Unions is we over pay for services that can be done cheaper, like why is it that a concrete company putting in a new road gets paid state wages? or that Union workers get in trouble for doing something out of their job description? bottom line is why is a Union dictating how much something or some one is worth when they are lining their own pockets and living the high life from the hard work of others?

I spent 20 years on Active duty (Army) and we did not have a union and we were always doing things out side of our job description and I believe we were under paid for what we were doing.

Point being I believe their are certain places where a union should be like (steel factories) but not Teachers, Bakers, Grocery & Medical fields or any other Service area, electricians and plumbers I believe should have the sense to control themselves, if they don't know what they are doing they should not be in that profession.

Bottom line is this, unions caused more damage today in society than they are worth, examples , Twinkies (Hostess), Detroit (Auto makers), and school bus drivers.

Unions are the thing of the past and they cost the US Consumer more money than they are worth.

There was once a time and a place for unions, and that was a very long time ago. While I am sure there are some solid union guys, currently unions serve as nothing more than the degenerate arm of the democratic party. They are a haven for losers, parasites, and overall scumbags. Unions, much like religion, are only about 2 things: Money and power. Nothing more, nothing less.

They have driven up prices, and are one of the big reasons why the manufacturing sector has completely collapsed in the United States. They should not be celebrated, they should be eradicated like the cancer they are.

Union, no union? If the gays wanna get married, who for me to stop them?

reply to post by schuyler


I will reply that that. Other than your weekends, 40 hour work weeks, over time pay, job safety and workmans comp probably not too much.

Sorry you were "forced" to join a union. Sounds like you should have called the cops.

I dont believe your whole story but I do believe the "union labor must be used" part. Its called a PLA or project labor agreement. Not being a politician what it means is, they will build that building with union labor. We make money, we spend money. No bull# non union contractors.

reply to post by doubletap


so you are happy to work for less than min wage?

reply to post by retsdeeps1


You sir are a poetic activist. and almost a genius. You said everything I said only better.

I would say that I am niether pro nor anti union. But I will be truthful, I do lean anti-union here where I live. They are like the mafia. Just try to do your own home repairs after paying out the @$$ for the permits and some union yaboohead will start crying that only a union contractor can do it...not you.

I've seen it happen, and more than once. Many of the unions here in Cleveland are quite corrupt. I know of only one guy who likes his Union (Railroad). The rest would rather work elsewhere...but then there is the pay. That always freezes them in their tracks looking for other employment.

I was a union employee for six years and never seen my union do anything for me or my co-workers. But then again, it was the federal government employee union...so monkey see, monkey do. LOL From what I see from my little perch on this world, there are some good unions, but I also see a lot of bad ones as well.

tinner07
reply to post by Bilk22

 

A necessary evil? only if you owned a factory.

So let me ask you Mr. Braveheart, you willing to walk a 6 inch (we'll make it wide) 50 feet in the air for 6 bucks an hour, no safety?

How does that pertain to the conversation? Why don't you explain yourself better?

So you don't like unions.
What have unions done ?
1. over time pay
2. payed holidays off
3. payed sick days off
4. payed bereavement days off
5. wage increasements
6. seniority
7. health and medical benefits
8. safety equipment and guidelines
9. breaks and lunch
10. job protection

The people who did not have those things fought for them through forming union. And apathy , taking them for granted is losing them.
Big business has been cutting back on all these things since the 80' when that jerk reagan screwed over the air traffic controllers.
Profits are through he roof and labor cost are down, and nowadays people are so desperate for a job that they take less.
There is no loyalty to employees, because there are a 1000 suckers behind you that will do it for less money
Companys don't care about quality in product or service, if you don't like it go somewhere else, and you won't and they know it.
If companys don't care about pride in their product services or employees then we all get what we pay for. A product for a disposible society.
Employee's are an investment.

Dimithae
reply to post by Bilk22

 

Laws protecting workers? What country are you from? You have no real protection here in the USA. I once worked in a place that in order to plug in a piece of equipment,you had to stand in water on a metal bucket to reach the extension cord.Guess what happened next. Yeah, this one woman got shocked so bad,she was knocked off the bucket with a burnt hand. We had to work sometimes 18 hours a day to get all the work done there.There was no breaks at all. Finally people had enough of it and called the labor board to come in and do something.They laid out all they're complaints and told what had been happening.Do you know what the labor board said? "They can do that, its they're business and they can run it however they want. If you don't like it here then get another job."

So good luck trying to press any of those laws in effect to protect you. There are many things that have been adopted by companies for employee benefits.But those only came after unions fought to get them for they're people. Before unions, a company could work you as many hours as they wanted with no breaks,at whatever pay they wanted.No such thing as a weekend or vacation etc.

Want to take your company to court to fight for your rights? Well good luck with that one too. Lawyers are terribly expensive,if you can find one that does Pro bono,nice. But just wait till you win your case (if you win it)then see how much your lawyer eats it up.That one my father found out.Then there is paying for every Joe,Jim and Gary out there that spent even 15 minutes doing anything at all that has to be paid out of the settlement.Now lets say you did win, guess where your job is going after its all over. Well you can forget about raises or any climbing up at your company now.In fact you'll be lucky in how much longer you get to work there. Companies have sneaky ways of getting rid of "TROUBLE MAKERS'. And yes that would be you. You would be a pariah at that company till you left.

Okay,so you go and try to get another job after they fire you or make it so impossible that you can't work there any more. Guess what a lot of employers ask now? Mine did at the job I'm at now, "Are you or have you ever sued a employer or former employer"? Now here you are trying to get this job you need so bad,if you lie,one they find out (and they will),you will be dismissed for false information in an interview. If you are truthful,your application goes in the trash as soon as you walk out of the door.

But thats okay. You don't feel the need for a union to protect you. I hate to break it to you,but unions are American. United we stand,divided we fall. Unions give you the right to have your say without fear of punishment. During the civil rights marches in the '60s, the unions went down and marched with the people to back them up. For some reason people keep getting unions mixed up with the police. The unions are supposed to police they're own people and make them behave! That is not what they are there for. They are there to enforce a contract that was voted on by they're members,and a company signed off on agreeing too.The company does and can and is supposed to be the one that does any corrective work when an employee does something wrong.

Companies have been on a campaign to discredit and ruin unions in the eyes of the people to get rid of them. It has been a successful campaign at that. Here are some things people need to ask themselves before they go on a union bashing spree:

If you are resentful of the wages union people make,instead of being mad that a group of people got together and decided to take action to get fair wages and benefits,why aren't don't you get off your rear and go the same. Its easier than you know.

If you like having a weekend off, vacation time, better wages, secure benefits, and the like,why are you so anti-union? It got all those things for people.

Do you really want to have to go to court to enforce every right you 'should' have to begin with?

If you believe that union wages are whats causing the cost of everything to go up, then explain the economics that has caused inflation to be higher now than at any other time in our generation.After all the unions are at they're lowest numbers since unions first came into being.So why would everything cost more now? I would suggest if you want the real answers,to go watch the movie 'Four Horsemen".The leading people in the world are asked about what all is going on and how it got this way and what we need to do about it.The answers are VERY interesting.Not one price has dropped by any company that busted up they're union. Odd don't you think?

There was a time in this country where people laid down they're lives to fight to get unions, it is an extreme disservice to those that died fighting for this to hear people now say "we don't need them anymore".There are many examples of this during the '40s.I can tell you one right off. You know how much Ford loves you? Yeah well you can forget about that one. As GM and Chrysler were bowing finally to having unions ,Henry Ford said there was no way he was letting them in. He stood his ground and brought in Pinkerton security to enforce it. Pinkerton proceeded to shoot and kill people that were peacefully protesting for the union on a bridge.Chaos ensued,by the time it was over,Ford was hated and people across America were boycotting Ford.Mr.Ford decided the only way to save the company then was to let in the unions.AFTER someone was killed. Just before I went to work there, an $8 million lawsuit had just been settled with Ford, they didn't want to let woman in to work at the plants.You know why? They had troughs running along the lines where the men worked for one thing. You didn't get a bathroom break, you just whipped it out and peed right there while you worked.Great system eh? Can't do that with women around though.There was other reasons as well. Such as they would have to change the jobs around to where people could do them without killing themselves. There were jobs there that only the strongest of guys could do,Ford left them that way because he hated his workers and punished them in any way he could. To the day I left there,they would not put in air conditioning at ANY plant.You want a union? Okay stupid,then suffer in the heat while you work. I kid you not.Is it any wonder why they have unions fighting with them?

I didn't waste time reading your entire post. I did read your first example. Call OSHA. They're the law regarding worker safety. You can do it anonymously.

Unions are as corrupt as the rest of the system. If you want to give them a vig out of your pay each week, that's your business. They do nothing for worker safety or anything else for that matter. They just enrich the union heads. They also price their labor force right out of work.

reply to post by Bilk22


To answer your question, Not demeaming you by any means. ...Love your avatar. Im saying is walk on a 6 inch I beam with no safety then lets talk.

reply to post by tinner07


"I am building trades union. Sheet metal workers local 7. Skilled trades. I could say I make $27.10 an hour, but I dont. I make almost 50. We negotiate our wages with the contractors and then vote as a membership what to do with the money.

How Many Months out of the Year do you Actually have Work ? Do you Pay your Union Dues even when you are Not Working ? When you are Not Working , do you try and get Under the Table Non Union Work because you Need the Money ? Are you told by your Union Heads who to Vote for in Elections ? Do you Realize that alot of Union Contract Jobs are Lost to Union Workers because of excessive Demands by Union Leaders on Businesses that would use Union Labor but because of their " Bottom Line " decide against it ?

I am a Skilled Trades Non Union Worker who considered joining a Union but came to Realized that I am better off not joining one because I can Work 12 Months out of a Year and make a decent Living without someone telling me I can't without " Them " .