Union vs. non Union... my views and yours

So recently we had the thread about Kelloggs.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I seriously feel that the majority of the union haters have no idea what a labor union is or what it is about.
There are so many different types of unions its almost like saying all Muslims are bad, which I am known to do...

I am building trades union. Sheet metal workers local 7. Skilled trades. I could say I make $27.10 an hour, but I dont. I make almost 50. We negotiate our wages with the contractors and then vote as a membership what to do with the money.

We are self insured and pay almost 9 bucks an hour for health care. Over 1400 a month but that subsidizes our retirees and our out of work brothers.

The big thing is that most people do not realize, in the building trades unions, there is no seniority, no job security, no paid sick leave no paid vacations.

We work in the worst of conditions and sometimes the best. You dont work, you dont get paid. They dont like you, get laid off

Now that is way different than say the teachers unions, You get caught buggering a kid, imho, you gotta go. but their union fights for them. Myself, I dont agree but like any defense lawyer, it is their job. It is the teacher that should be ridiculed, not the union.

Now for the mindless work for 28 dollars an hour on the Kelloggs thread. I have talked to some UAW plant folk, those jobs suck. to stand there all day. I couldnt do it. You think you could? but would you do it for 6 an hour? for 30 years?

Lets say we build a new sports stadium. The non union folk would have everybody making 6 bucks an hour. Those people that built the stadium will never go into it once its opened. Nevermind the athletes make 100's of millions.

Mention unions as a wal mart employee see how fast you are fired.

What I got from the Kelloggs thread is that a lot of people know nothing about unions but like to bash them and a lot of people are jealous of somebody else making more than them.

Maybe I should have titled this thread building trades vs. other unions because I dont exactly like everything other unions do. Gives us all a bad name

bottom line.... enjoy your weekend? thank a union worker

reply to post by tinner07


I think with all the lawyers in the world now, unions are obsolete and not necessary. Oh throw in all the laws protecting workers and their rights and that goes doubly so. Unions were a necessary evil IMO at one point in history. Now their obstructionist and cause labor jobs to move out of country.

where do you think the laws covering workers came from?

I'm a proud union member [SAG/AFTRA and IATSE] I spent many years perfecting my craft both at the University and an apprenticeship. I deserve to be paid for my efforts, have a retirement plan, a health etc. my union affiliation makes that possible.

Unions aren't perfect but I feel fortunate to have representation in the workplace. The production companies I work for like Disney, won't even answer my emails or calls.

reply to post by Bilk22


A necessary evil? only if you owned a factory.

So let me ask you Mr. Braveheart, you willing to walk a 6 inch (we'll make it wide) 50 feet in the air for 6 bucks an hour, no safety?

reply to post by olaru12


Thank you, proud union member here. 4 years apprenticeship. and 25 years in the trade

The issue here is that Unions have not helped themselves at all with the rampant corruption and the like. Its a matter of public perception.

I was pretty anti union till I encountered the union that represents us at the Hospital and IMHO its how a union should be. CRONA (aka my union) is run by the nurses it represents. Anybody from the president on down HAS to be a nurse at the hospital. The only person NOT a nurse is our lawyer. I'm an area rep, as well as a member of the negotiation team so when I agree to things I am effected directly. I'm not some high paid executive that's untouchable and unaffected by negotiated changes (I'm double impacted BTW because my wife is also a member)

Our dues are a modest $20 a paycheck. Compare that to the $100-200 a month that SEIU represented members (clerks, housekeepers etc.) who make at most 25% of what we make and have a much crappier contract.

Unions have lots their way and need to follow our model IMHO. Most of the workplace benefits and rules we now enjoy are because of the unions, but they seem to have lost their way.

To me, the only worthwhile union would be a global union of all people. Everyone makes a living wage, everyone is protected and safe. If not then you create another situation of haves and have nots as it is the way it's played out today!

A lifetime member A F of M American Federation of Musicians, Local 5

Retired/w 401-20 year member of AFSCME Local 1583, American Federation of State, County, Municiple Workers, Hospital/Healthcare Workers of America

Current-7 Years PPAN Local 102, Plant Protection Association.

Currently and reflectively looking back...I can only say my wages and any benefits, retirement etc...are guaranteed by negotiated contract.

Currently? New hires at fulltime... pay a $500 initiation and $40 monthly dues.

**PS Right to Work Legislation-A new hire tried to argue Mich is a right to work state so he didnt have to join any union. He tried that and whereas he didnt LOSE his job with his employer here, he was reassigned as this Big 3 Automaker is UAW.

We tried telling him, but he thought he would not be affected. He was. He now works 25 miles away with zero benefits and a few less $$ per hrs and hates it...

In my case, unions have been a good thing I guess...

reply to post by FredT


All of our reps are Union sheet metal workers. I'm guessing but every building trades union is represented by building trades workers.

Nobody can run for office in our local without being a member.

Unions may not be perfect but it's a simple fact that without them, a much larger section of the working classes would be earning poverty wages. It's blatantly obvious that hugely successful companies get there via workforce exploitation.

In my industry, a union contract can double income. My current contract is a good union agreed one but in the past I've had zero hr contracts with over time and night work at standard rates. No job security, below inflation pay rises..

Put simply.. company vs union = profit vs people. I understand things are a bit more extreme in the USA but from from an outside POV everything there is extremely polarized. Excessive corporate greed will naturally generate powerful unions, who will of course abuse their power and attract the corrupt.

Still one of the strongest forces of good in the world, if you disagree, have a look at the union membership of your most hated corporations, at home but more so abroad.

As for paying for a lawyer yourself.. with what? Overstretched slave wages?

reply to post by tinner07


I stand with you brother! Local 399 checking in!

Many people have scewed vision's of what Unions are exactly, your absolutely correct.

The Union i'm associated with, the "International Brotherhood of Operating Engineers" has rebuilt America 2 times over when calamity has struck, from the East to the West Coast.

It's not an easy Union to get into, you need to be skilled and schooled. As an Engineer I wear TOO MANY FRIGGIN HATS! I'm a Electrician, Boiler Operator, Plumber, Mechanic, Carpenter and the list goes on. Hence my "Jack of all" trade mark on my avatar

Nobody had a 40hr work week prior to Unions. You can take that to the bank.

Unions are being dismantled at an alarming rate. Right to work? For what? Pennies on the dollar of what your REALLY WORTH! Hence the term "rats" they take work and do a piss poor job for half the price. Niiiiiiiiiiice!!! Not to say there aren't skilled individuals, but COME ON!

SUPPORT YOUR UNIONS! We keep your infrastructure strong!

That's a hooooooo with a RAAAAAA~

reply to post by mysterioustranger


grats on the musicians union. never heard of it. Glad I have.

You from Mi? I dont get the whole right to work. Nobody forces anybody to join our union anymore than they say if you want to be a doctor, you have to go to school

reply to post by tinner07


As an electrician i will say in my field the union is bs

So many reasons

Form taking your tests to just being lazy

When they leave the union they usually have to be retrained to work in the real world

Seriously

As a 3 year apprentice i had to train a 15 year journeyman

Its that bad ( in Oklahoma)

They don't learn their code

And work slow as can be

He was essentially a glorified helper making way to much money

As long as you paid your dues you got your lisc.

N matter how bad you did your job

I would never have a union electrician work on anything

My 2 penny's

reply to post by sulaw


Damn straight Brother! I run a lot of big pieces of metal that couldnt be placed without you. Do I want some 6 buck an hour guy running the brody? or the crane? NO

The question is, We gonna run a 50 million pound piece of steel over your kids school. Who you want to do it? The unions or the illegal aliens?

reply to post by Another_Nut


That is a downfall nut, is it the IBEW? I know a few around me... Sorry to say... I love electricity.... Electricity Unions are filled with a lot of pre-modanna's.... No offense, I've ran into far to many that do exactly what you stated. In Chicago however, if you don't do your job. Good luck finding a job on the books, because you won't. However if you do your job and are skilled and take your trade seriously, you will never run out of work.


edit: I should have said this. There's crappy members and there are golden members. I know a lot of very well skilled electricians far more than those that waste time and money.

reply to post by Another_Nut


Ok my brother is IBEW... I have some respect for the electricians, so I respect your remarks. Id hate to throw my racism in so I wont.

reply to post by tinner07


I respect that . And i understand not all are that way.

And maybe my experience with them is just my luck

But man they scare me

reply to post by Bilk22


Laws protecting workers? What country are you from? You have no real protection here in the USA. I once worked in a place that in order to plug in a piece of equipment,you had to stand in water on a metal bucket to reach the extension cord.Guess what happened next. Yeah, this one woman got shocked so bad,she was knocked off the bucket with a burnt hand. We had to work sometimes 18 hours a day to get all the work done there.There was no breaks at all. Finally people had enough of it and called the labor board to come in and do something.They laid out all they're complaints and told what had been happening.Do you know what the labor board said? "They can do that, its they're business and they can run it however they want. If you don't like it here then get another job."

So good luck trying to press any of those laws in effect to protect you. There are many things that have been adopted by companies for employee benefits.But those only came after unions fought to get them for they're people. Before unions, a company could work you as many hours as they wanted with no breaks,at whatever pay they wanted.No such thing as a weekend or vacation etc.

Want to take your company to court to fight for your rights? Well good luck with that one too. Lawyers are terribly expensive,if you can find one that does Pro bono,nice. But just wait till you win your case (if you win it)then see how much your lawyer eats it up.That one my father found out.Then there is paying for every Joe,Jim and Gary out there that spent even 15 minutes doing anything at all that has to be paid out of the settlement.Now lets say you did win, guess where your job is going after its all over. Well you can forget about raises or any climbing up at your company now.In fact you'll be lucky in how much longer you get to work there. Companies have sneaky ways of getting rid of "TROUBLE MAKERS'. And yes that would be you. You would be a pariah at that company till you left.

Okay,so you go and try to get another job after they fire you or make it so impossible that you can't work there any more. Guess what a lot of employers ask now? Mine did at the job I'm at now, "Are you or have you ever sued a employer or former employer"? Now here you are trying to get this job you need so bad,if you lie,one they find out (and they will),you will be dismissed for false information in an interview. If you are truthful,your application goes in the trash as soon as you walk out of the door.

But thats okay. You don't feel the need for a union to protect you. I hate to break it to you,but unions are American. United we stand,divided we fall. Unions give you the right to have your say without fear of punishment. During the civil rights marches in the '60s, the unions went down and marched with the people to back them up. For some reason people keep getting unions mixed up with the police. The unions are supposed to police they're own people and make them behave! That is not what they are there for. They are there to enforce a contract that was voted on by they're members,and a company signed off on agreeing too.The company does and can and is supposed to be the one that does any corrective work when an employee does something wrong.

Companies have been on a campaign to discredit and ruin unions in the eyes of the people to get rid of them. It has been a successful campaign at that. Here are some things people need to ask themselves before they go on a union bashing spree:

If you are resentful of the wages union people make,instead of being mad that a group of people got together and decided to take action to get fair wages and benefits,why aren't don't you get off your rear and go the same. Its easier than you know.

If you like having a weekend off, vacation time, better wages, secure benefits, and the like,why are you so anti-union? It got all those things for people.

Do you really want to have to go to court to enforce every right you 'should' have to begin with?

If you believe that union wages are whats causing the cost of everything to go up, then explain the economics that has caused inflation to be higher now than at any other time in our generation.After all the unions are at they're lowest numbers since unions first came into being.So why would everything cost more now? I would suggest if you want the real answers,to go watch the movie 'Four Horsemen".The leading people in the world are asked about what all is going on and how it got this way and what we need to do about it.The answers are VERY interesting.Not one price has dropped by any company that busted up they're union. Odd don't you think?

There was a time in this country where people laid down they're lives to fight to get unions, it is an extreme disservice to those that died fighting for this to hear people now say "we don't need them anymore".There are many examples of this during the '40s.I can tell you one right off. You know how much Ford loves you? Yeah well you can forget about that one. As GM and Chrysler were bowing finally to having unions ,Henry Ford said there was no way he was letting them in. He stood his ground and brought in Pinkerton security to enforce it. Pinkerton proceeded to shoot and kill people that were peacefully protesting for the union on a bridge.Chaos ensued,by the time it was over,Ford was hated and people across America were boycotting Ford.Mr.Ford decided the only way to save the company then was to let in the unions.AFTER someone was killed. Just before I went to work there, an $8 million lawsuit had just been settled with Ford, they didn't want to let woman in to work at the plants.You know why? They had troughs running along the lines where the men worked for one thing. You didn't get a bathroom break, you just whipped it out and peed right there while you worked.Great system eh? Can't do that with women around though.There was other reasons as well. Such as they would have to change the jobs around to where people could do them without killing themselves. There were jobs there that only the strongest of guys could do,Ford left them that way because he hated his workers and punished them in any way he could. To the day I left there,they would not put in air conditioning at ANY plant.You want a union? Okay stupid,then suffer in the heat while you work. I kid you not.Is it any wonder why they have unions fighting with them?

This is the MAJOR kicker everyone. Everyone complains about Health Insurance. As a Union worker, personally speaking for my Local. The employer pays majority of the insurance, and this is not any low cost health insurance of Obama Care.

Where at my old job I paid 250 a bi-weekly for me and my daughter that's 500 a fetching month!!! Now! Hoooo boy ready!!? 50-75 bucks a week! Any doctor, anytime, anywhere.

I'll pay my dues every month to keep my bene's~ Protect and support your Union and they will do the same.

People need to get out of Union's are bad mentality. Unions are AMERICAN's! DAG NABBIT!!!