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Social programming + the collapse of religion and values.

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posted on Feb, 14 2014 @ 01:22 PM
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AfterInfinityAnd who should do the telling?


This has been the role of the Church for a long time. And the Church is often criticized for being 'authorative' and overbearing. I would not be so hard on the Church. Priest are not stupid. They have always known that people need leadership and without it the bonds in society would become undone. Maybe sometimes some of them have been overzealous but which is worse; sterness and moral cohesion or moral bankruptcy? We will see...




posted on Feb, 14 2014 @ 01:25 PM
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EnPassant

AfterInfinityAnd who should do the telling?


This has been the role of the Church for a long time. And the Church is often criticized for being 'authorative' and overbearing. I would not be so hard on the Church. Priest are not stupid. They have always known that people need leadership and without it the bonds in society would become undone. Maybe sometimes some of them have been overzealous but which is worse; sterness and moral cohesion or moral bankruptcy? We will see...


Moral cohesion and moral bankruptcy aren't opposites of each other. Just because a society's morals aren't cohesive doesn't mean they are morally bankrupt. To be morally bankrupt means they hold no morals at all. Moral cohesion means that everyone holds the same morals as true. A society that isn't morally cohesive could still have morals. They are just defined on an individual level instead of a societal level. Example: The United States is becoming a society like that.

Therefore your choice between the two is silly, there are more options than your simple either/or option. Again you are sticking with the duality thing again. For the second time, the universe doesn't work in either/or's. Because of this, you shouldn't be presenting answers to philosophical arguments with two possibilities. You need to recognize that there is more than 2 answers to any given problem.
edit on 14-2-2014 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 14 2014 @ 01:36 PM
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Krazysh0t

EnPassant

AfterInfinityAnd who should do the telling?


This has been the role of the Church for a long time. And the Church is often criticized for being 'authorative' and overbearing. I would not be so hard on the Church. Priest are not stupid. They have always known that people need leadership and without it the bonds in society would become undone. Maybe sometimes some of them have been overzealous but which is worse; sterness and moral cohesion or moral bankruptcy? We will see...


Moral cohesion and moral bankruptcy aren't opposites of each other. Just because a society's morals aren't cohesive doesn't mean their they are morally bankrupt. To be morally bankrupt means they hold no morals at all. Therefore your choice between the two is silly, there are more options than your simple either/or option. Again you are sticking with the duality thing again. For the second time, the universe doesn't work in either/or's. Because of this, you shouldn't be presenting answers to philosophical arguments with two possibilities. You need to recognize that there is more than 2 answers to any given problem.


I get your point but sometimes there are only two answers; if there is a war very often one side will win. Humanists are considered to be naive because they think that human lights alone will suffice. I don't think that humanism will work because it does not recognize that the true source of the world is spiritual. It is possible for this world to be completely ruled by evil. I don't believe that this will happen but, in principle, it can happen. That would be a fairly one sided situation. Some things can be black or white.



posted on Feb, 14 2014 @ 01:46 PM
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reply to post by Krazysh0t
 


But the thing is, morality is not a separate thing from the rest of life. The moral state of the world is ultimately determined by its spiritual state and vise versa. If one goes the other goes. This is a feedback loop that can break and if it does there can be total moral bankruptcy.



posted on Feb, 14 2014 @ 01:51 PM
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EnPassant

Krazysh0t

EnPassant

AfterInfinityAnd who should do the telling?


This has been the role of the Church for a long time. And the Church is often criticized for being 'authorative' and overbearing. I would not be so hard on the Church. Priest are not stupid. They have always known that people need leadership and without it the bonds in society would become undone. Maybe sometimes some of them have been overzealous but which is worse; sterness and moral cohesion or moral bankruptcy? We will see...


Moral cohesion and moral bankruptcy aren't opposites of each other. Just because a society's morals aren't cohesive doesn't mean their they are morally bankrupt. To be morally bankrupt means they hold no morals at all. Therefore your choice between the two is silly, there are more options than your simple either/or option. Again you are sticking with the duality thing again. For the second time, the universe doesn't work in either/or's. Because of this, you shouldn't be presenting answers to philosophical arguments with two possibilities. You need to recognize that there is more than 2 answers to any given problem.


I get your point but sometimes there are only two answers; if there is a war very often one side will win. Humanists are considered to be naive because they think that human lights alone will suffice. I don't think that humanism will work because it does not recognize that the true source of the world is spiritual. It is possible for this world to be completely ruled by evil. I don't believe that this will happen but, in principle, it can happen. That would be a fairly one sided situation. Some things can be black or white.


Only for a simple mind. The most evil person to ever exist still did acts of kindness or goodwill to at the very least their family or maybe even to facilitate another plan of theirs that was evil. The converse is true as well. There is no such thing as true evil or true good. Therefore your idea that the world could be completely ruled by evil is false.

Your example you used about war shows the simplicity of your idea. There is never just one winner or one loser in a war. There are allies that win. Country's resources are depleted so even a winner may lose economically. Then you have outside contributors into the war. Banks finance both sides of a war and win in the end. Neutral countries may side with one side or another secretly and support them secretly. Nothing is ever just black and white.



posted on Feb, 14 2014 @ 02:00 PM
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Krazysh0t

Prove its existence then you have an argument in that regard. Heck let's go over your head. "Hey God, please prove your existence to the participants of this thread so we can get a clear idea of what is morally just and what isn't. If no answer, I will assume you either do not care what humans think is morally just or just don't exist. Thank you, Krazysh0t."

Ok let's wait for an answer.


Through the events about to transpire over the Earth, God is about to do exactly as you requested, not because you so arrogantly presented such a challenge to Almighty God; but because it is that time in our history and His plan for us. You do not have to wait long in terms of time; when the global economic system collapses (1st trumpet) you will know the time has begun.

God gave mankind this present age to define for themselves what is right and what is wrong; time has run out for man's "morals".

God Bless,



posted on Feb, 14 2014 @ 02:03 PM
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reply to post by Krazysh0t
 


Ok, if you want to take it to these extremes I tend to agree but there can be tipping points beyond which there is no return; a tight rope walker loses his balance. If he falls beyond the point of no return he goes all the way but before that point he may regain balance. This is similar to the position of the world today.



posted on Feb, 14 2014 @ 02:08 PM
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reply to post by EnPassant
 



This has been the role of the Church for a long time. And the Church is often criticized for being 'authorative' and overbearing.


Ah. I knew we would get there eventually. And the Church often has been authoritative and overbearing. Have you ever seen the movie "Priest"? "To go against the church is to go against God..."


I would not be so hard on the Church. Priest are not stupid. They have always known that people need leadership and without it the bonds in society would become undone.


Do you know what a triumvirate is? It is a state ruled by three elements. Three kings, three presidents, three generals. This was to ensure that no one person would have all the power, all the voice. This was to ensure balance, so that all the flaws of any one king or general may be compensated for as needed. With the Church, I see one leader. A dictator. Just as described in that quote I provided.


Maybe sometimes some of them have been overzealous but which is worse; sterness and moral cohesion or moral bankruptcy? We will see...


That's your argument? Perfect order or absolute chaos? Yeah, authoritarians indeed.
edit on 14-2-2014 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 14 2014 @ 02:15 PM
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reply to post by Krazysh0t
 



Nothing is ever just black and white.


True. Its about striving to be better than we are. Some people need, or at least have a desire to surround themselves with a community of others who are also striving to be better. When the system/rulers/government/institutions make forming such communities impossible or illegal, you are living in a tyranny.



posted on Feb, 14 2014 @ 02:18 PM
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ElohimJD

Krazysh0t

Prove its existence then you have an argument in that regard. Heck let's go over your head. "Hey God, please prove your existence to the participants of this thread so we can get a clear idea of what is morally just and what isn't. If no answer, I will assume you either do not care what humans think is morally just or just don't exist. Thank you, Krazysh0t."

Ok let's wait for an answer.


Through the events about to transpire over the Earth, God is about to do exactly as you requested, not because you so arrogantly presented such a challenge to Almighty God; but because it is that time in our history and His plan for us. You do not have to wait long in terms of time; when the global economic system collapses (1st trumpet) you will know the time has begun.

God gave mankind this present age to define for themselves what is right and what is wrong; time has run out for man's "morals".

God Bless,


The history of the world is ripe with periods of great tension followed by periods of intense strife and conflict, however none of those events heralded the end of the world. I doubt that this one will be any different. I can prove that statement too, but that is a topic for another thread (just look at one of the many Revelations threads that I've responded to)
edit on 14-2-2014 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 14 2014 @ 02:34 PM
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EnPassant
reply to post by Krazysh0t
 


Ok, if you want to take it to these extremes I tend to agree but there can be tipping points beyond which there is no return; a tight rope walker loses his balance. If he falls beyond the point of no return he goes all the way but before that point he may regain balance. This is similar to the position of the world today.



The only way this comparison would hold up is if humanity entered a point where we were about to destroy ourselves and the button to do so had already been pushed. There is no "brink" where we've performed so much evil that we are irredeemable. Humans have done countless atrocities in the past and we still consider ourselves redeemable. In comparison some of the atrocities being perpetrated today pale in comparison to things like Genghis Kahn ripping through the known world raping and pillaging everything he came in contact with, the Inquisition, Central American natives practicing human sacrifice for hundreds of years, American slavery, the Holocaust, and that is just off the top of my head. With a little research I could write a book that would make anyone squeamish about the things humans have done to each other in the past.
edit on 14-2-2014 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 14 2014 @ 04:19 PM
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reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 


Lol. I find it hysterical that religious people find reason and morality to be "brainwashing".

I didn't need TV to tell me that treating people with respect was the right thing to do. In fact, I do not even own a TV. Nor have I in years. TV was filled with crazy bible thumpers and pervert, greedy televangelists, so I stopped watching. When I stopped listening to preachers and bible thumpers, and stopped drinking the Xian Kool-Aid, I discovered that:

1. Gay people really aren't any different than straight people. Far from being twisted sick degenerates, they actually made better friends than my former xian ones.
2. Not judging people by the mores of woman-hating bronze-age nomads actually makes more sense.
3. People from other religions really aren't evil, and do not believe in horrible things. In fact, people from other religions often were more mentally balanced and moral than the Christians I knew.
4. Church congregations are chock full of people I would never leave my pets alone with, let alone children. It was in a good baptist church that I knew the first sexual predator, a married older youth minister that was having an affair with girl in his class. In fact, sexual predation by older men on younger women is not only rampant in the various churches, it is even condoned via silence. And I'm not even talking about pedo priests, either.
5. The majority of "sexual deviants" I know are regular church attenders. This includes womanizers, adulterers, swingers, ect. In fact, a friend of mine who was a swinger informed me that a third of his fellow swingers in their club were all regular church attendees.


I think it is you who blindly follows the immoral ravings of evil men. Given that the bible has justified slavery, child abuse, sexual abuse, murder, genocide, and torture, I think we all know where the real immorality is.

Anyone who thinks two men in love is evil, but that slaughtering and enslaving an entire group of people because an invisible being in the sky told them too, really needs to check themselves before the wreck themselves.



posted on Feb, 14 2014 @ 04:31 PM
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Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by DeadSeraph
 

Count me among those that celebrate the




An old saying comes to mind "Be careful what you wish for...you might just get it"

edit on 14-2-2014 by SophieTish because: ****



posted on Feb, 14 2014 @ 07:42 PM
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reply to post by EnPassant
 


This has been the role of the Church for a long time. And the Church is often criticized for being 'authorative' and overbearing. I would not be so hard on the Church. Priest are not stupid. They have always known that people need leadership and without it the bonds in society would become undone.

Society would come undone, eh?


Open your mind and contemplate this:


The level of atheism throughout the rest of the developed world refutes any argument that religion is somehow a moral necessity. Countries like Norway, Iceland, Australia, Canada, Sweden, Switzerland, Belgium, Japan, the Netherlands, Denmark and the United Kingdom are among the least religious societies on Earth. According to the United Nations’ Human Development Report (2005) they are also the healthiest, as indicated by measures of life expectancy, adult literacy, per capita income, educational attainment, gender equality, homicide rate and infant mortality. Conversely, the 50 nations now ranked lowest in terms of human development are unwaveringly religious. Other analyses paint the same picture: The United States is unique among wealthy democracies in its level of religious literalism and opposition to evolutionary theory; it is also uniquely beleaguered by high rates of homicide, abortion, teen pregnancy, STD infection and infant mortality. -Sam Harris

edit on 14-2-2014 by Lucid Lunacy because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 14 2014 @ 07:57 PM
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reply to post by SophieTish
 


An old saying comes to mind "Be careful what you wish for...you might just get it"

Are you attempting to put the fear of Hell into my heart?

That's completely futile. That's how much I don't believe.

Hell isn't an invention of a creator god. It's purely psychological. Twisted people relishing in the idea people they don't like will be utterly tortured. Desiring such a thing on Earth is recognizably vile but somehow if it takes place postmortem it's just being a good Christian.



posted on Feb, 14 2014 @ 08:10 PM
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reply to post by EnPassant
 


I don't think that humanism will work because it does not recognize that the true source of the world is spiritual.

Right because it would be much better if those that live in this World think the next one is more important. How about we worry about this World while we are here, and worry about the next when/if we get there. A shocking proposition I know.



posted on Feb, 14 2014 @ 08:19 PM
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reply to post by ElohimJD
 


God is about to do exactly as you requested, not because you so arrogantly presented such a challenge to Almighty God; but because it is that time in our history and His plan for us. You do not have to wait long in terms of time;

Christians have been saying this for thousands of years. The end is nigh! In your lifetime! God's late to his own party.



posted on Feb, 14 2014 @ 09:35 PM
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Skadi_the_Evil_Elf.... Lol. I find it hysterical that religious people find reason and morality to be "brainwashing".

I didn't need TV to tell me that treating people with respect was the right thing to do. In fact, I do not even own a TV. Nor have I in years......
^ This statement perfectly echoes an earlier point of mine.... About the media having sold people certain strange new ideas, all candy coated in fluffy jargon, buzzwords like ''reason'' included. The use of such words is like McDonalds using the word ''tasty''. Its nothing more than a hollow positioning statement, with no valid truth to it. _________________________________________and TV is just one aspect of the whole thing. Even if you don't watch TV, the society you live in also shapes your perceptions... And most of them also think in the same way.

I discovered that:

1. Gay people really aren't any different than straight people. Far from being twisted sick degenerates, they actually made better friends than my former xian ones.

You didn't ''discover'' anything. You were programmed into thinking that homosexuality is normal...because such ideas never existed a few decades ago. It had to first be introduced as an acceptable way of life. The idea that it is normal was implanted. The media has done a thorough job of shaping your (and most peoples) perceptions. A high ranking politician even admitted that the media has played a role in changing peoples perceptions.



posted on Feb, 14 2014 @ 10:14 PM
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reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 


Trying that same tactic again huh?!?!? I'm curious why you never replied to what I wrote the first time you tried it...

In case you have trouble finding it...
Link



posted on Feb, 14 2014 @ 10:44 PM
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reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 


You were programmed into thinking that homosexuality is normal…because such ideas never existed a few decades ago. It had to first be introduced as an acceptable way of life. The idea that it is normal was implanted.

Daughters of Bilitis and Mattachine Society were both groups in the US advocating gay Rights and encouraged its members to integrate with heterosexual culture. Those were early 1950s. These ideas are not a few decades old. What about the information Wandering Scribe gave you about Native American's acceptance of the 'two spirit' people? You don't think any of the settlers noticed it? You really believe the idea of accepting homosexuality didn't exist in the World prior to 30 years ago??...


The media has done a thorough job of shaping your (and most peoples) perceptions




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