Help ATS with a contribution via PayPal:
learn more

The Origins of Gnosticism

page: 3
11
<< 1  2    4  5  6 >>

log in

join

posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 01:07 PM
link   
reply to post by wildtimes
 



Well, not according to the sources/historians referenced in the videos. It mentions the Jews and discusses how they thought.

I didn't say that there was no overlap, I said that they aren't compatible, one of the reasons that the Gnostic Christians rejected the God of the Hebrew Bible, like Marcion did before them.


Dr Quispel says there was "no virgin birth", "no resurrection, "no cross." Based on the Nag Hammadi texts.

So, he thinks that texts written over a hundred years, over two hundred in some cases, after Christ are a better representation than the texts of the New Testament, written within a generation of Christ, and clearly written by, or with the assistance of, eyewitnesses to his life and teaching?




posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 01:13 PM
link   
reply to post by adjensen
 



after Christ are a better representation than the texts of the New Testament, written within a generation of Christ, and clearly written by, or with the assistance of, eyewitnesses to his life and teaching?

d, I've only just watched the video this morning. If you watch it later today (or ever), you'll see what he says. The Gospels were not written by eyewitnesses; the 4 of them don't even agree, and their 'authorship' is disputed. It's addressed in the documentary.



posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 01:37 PM
link   
reply to post by wildtimes
 



The Gospels were not written by eyewitnesses

I've recommended it before, and I'll do so again -- if you read Richard Bauckham's 2008 book Jesus and the Eyewitnesses, he presents a very solid case for Mark, Matthew and John having been written by people who were eyewitnesses to the events that they describe. Details that most people gloss over, like people's names, geophysical descriptions and the way that people are addressed indicate that the texts were almost certainly written in the First Century by people who lived in, or were very familiar with, Judea under the Romans. All of that detail is absent from Gnostic Christian texts, which is what one would expect, given that they were written by the third or fourth generation of followers of Jesus, who were no longer centered in Israel.

Liberal scholars would like you to believe that the books of the New Testament were not written by eyewitnesses, because it allows them to treat the texts, not as historical biography, but as myth and storytelling, which leads people like your video guy, or the Jesus Seminar, to conclude that anything supernatural that appears in the Bible is "obviously made up."



posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 01:43 PM
link   
reply to post by adjensen
 



Liberal scholars would like you to believe that the books of the New Testament were not written by eyewitnesses, because it allows them to treat the texts, not as historical biography, but as myth and storytelling, which leads people like your video guy, or the Jesus Seminar, to conclude that anything supernatural that appears in the Bible is "obviously made up."

Maybe they are right, and some people just refuse to believe it.

I don't disbelieve in "supernatural", not at all.
I don't know if you've seen my threads lately about that very thing -

but I know that you are mostly focused on the "Nicene Creed" as your home-base. It's my studied opinion that the Nicene Creed is merely Constantine's efforts to quell the unrest by forcing everyone to admit it as 'truth', when it is not necessarily TRUTH.

And they aren't just "liberal scholars"; they are 'scholars'. Experts in the history and documentation of it.
It's okay, though. I know you hate it.



posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 01:45 PM
link   
reply to post by adjensen
 


"Gnosis
a superior form of wisdom, as that of the Gnostics, supposed to have been acquired mystically."



Gnostism originates out of the Order of Melchisedek (way back machine) and the Essenes sect Qumran;

No, it does not.


How can one date a method of enlightenment?

Either the Essene were always Gnostic or they adopted Gnostic methodology later, but the Essene "order" certainly claimed to be older than Abraham, having been founded by Enoch. (Before Abraham, I am)


In regard to the origin of the Essenes, neither Josephus nor Philo can give a specific date, but both make clear that the Essenian roots are incredibly ancient. Josephus declares that the Essenes have existed "from time immemorial" and "countless generations". Philo agrees, calling the Essenes "the most ancient of all the initiates" with a "teaching perpetuated through an immense space of ages". Josephus and Philo -- as well as several other ancient writers including Pliny the Elder -- are in consensus on two points in regard to the origin of the Essenes:
Their origin is lost in pre-history with certain ancient legends linking them with Enoch;

There was a major remanifestation of the Essenes by Moses at Mount Sinai.
www.essene.org...


It's interesting to note that the Essene, according to the Dead Sea Scrolls, believe that Melchizedek would reincarnate as the Messiah.


The caves where the Dead Sea Scrolls were found yielded a series of thirteen fragments on Melchizedek which identifies Melchizedek as the one who will carry out the vengeance of God's judgments and the one who delivers the people from the hand of Belial and the spirits of his lot.

The belief that Melchizedek was the Messiah was a strongly held conviction among the Qumran community, as well as among some other Jewish and Gnostic sects in the first century A.D. This becomes apparent in the text entitled "The Last Jubilee" (Dead Sea Scroll: 11Q13, Column 2) about the coming of Melchizedek as the Messiah.
www.near-death.com...



Hebrews 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.



The experience of gnosis was highly esteemed at the beginning of our era in various religious and philosophical circles of Aramaic and Greco-Roman civilization.

1. It is a key word in the scrolls of the Jewish Essene sect found at Qumran.
www.copticchurch.net...


According to Josephus the Essene believed in the pre-existence of the soul.


11. For their doctrine is this: That bodies are corruptible, and that the matter they are made of is not permanent; but that the souls are immortal, and continue for ever; and that they come out of the most subtile air, and are united to their bodies as to prisons, into which they are drawn by a certain natural enticement; but that when they are set free from the bonds of the flesh, they then, as released from a long bondage, rejoice and mount upward.
ancienthistory.about.com...




The Essenes were strict Jewish ascetics whose slavish adherence to the Law was something that Christ specifically taught against, clearly indicating that he was not one of them.


Yet, Jesus emulated many of their traditions and extolled their teachings.


“They reject personal wealth, and do not refrain from sharing what they have with those in need; in fact, none among them is richer than the other; for the law with them is that whosoever joins their order must sell his possessions and hand the proceeds over to the common stock; and the leader distributes it to all according to their need. The overseers who provide for the common wants are elected by them. They do not use oil, as they regard anointing as a defilement, and they always dress in white garments".9
www.hisholychurch.org...




“...whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.” Luke 14:33"

Clearly, Jesus was one of them.

The Essene were the first Christians and they were Gnostics

We know that Christian Gnostic belived that Jesus was the reincarnation of Melchizedek

We know that early Essene were influenced by Plato and Pythagoras.

PYTHAGOREANISM & THE ESSENE RELIGIOUS SYNTHESIS...PUTTING IT ALL TOGETHER


Remembering what we have learned so far, let us not forget that it would be these Essenes of first century A.D. which would, after the crucifixion of Jesus, identify Jesus with their theological Angel-Messiah which was likewise crucified in the heavens. Thus, we find this group of Pythagorean-Buddhists, who are today labeled "Essenes," gravitating toward the Jesus Movement in Palestine. These Essenes brought with them their syncretistic religious beliefs which were an amalgam of Indian, Buddhist, and Pythagorean religious beliefs which were immersed within Second Temple Judaism. Today we call these religious beliefs "Christianity."


I think that the evidence is clear, that pre-Christian era and 1st century Essenes were, in fact, Gnostic.



posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 02:06 PM
link   

adjensen

I don't understand what is so hard to "get" about the religious landscape in the time of Christ and the centuries which followed him. Take a few hours to read the historical record, and the differences between the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the Essenes, the Christians, the Gnostics and the Gnostic Christians is obvious. Instead, people idly speculate, invent their own facts, and dismiss reality, simply because it doesn't fit into what they would prefer reality to be.

edit on 11-2-2014 by adjensen because: clarifiation


adjensen thank you again for bringing common sense to a thread.You are correct.It isn't difficult to view the landscape where these mystic "beliefs" came from and more importantly as regards to knowing The Truth... completely irrelevant.The vast majority(99.9999999999999999999999%) is all speculation about nothing.The proof is in the pudding.None of these people who indulged in mysticism understood the least bit about reality .Their "knowledge" was all self inflicted.Their "gnosis" is gibberish that doesn't make anyones life any better.It's chasing the wind in a vacuum.

The basis of truth is all very easy if anyone wants to "know" what the mystery of life is all about I'll tell them......go live.All the gnosis in the universe will not reveal anyone "seeking" it because..it ain't hidden or lost..and even it was found it would make as much sense to most people as me explaining the general relativity to the feral cat that lives in my backyard(if he'd even listen!).

The search for gnosis is a red herring on a rabbit trail that leads to nowhere fast.(I'm only good for 3 cliches in a row).Wild I am not trying to derail your thread I am just following the motto of ATS ... deny ignorance and gnosis (and all religion for that matter) is full of it...and as a side note.It is absolutely false nonsense to believe Yahoshua was a Gnostic or Essene.Everything that is recorded of what he did and said are in complete contradiction to those fallacys.
edit on 11-2-2014 by Rex282 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 02:18 PM
link   
reply to post by Rex282
 





The search for gnosis is a red herring on a rabbit trail that leads to nowhere fast.(I'm only good for 3 cliches in a row).Wild I am not trying to derail your thread I am just following the motto of ATS ... deny ignorance and gnosis (and all religion for that matter) is full of it...and as a side note.It is absolutely false nonsense to believe Yahoshua was a Gnostic or Essene.Everything that is recorded of what he did and said are in complete contradiction to those fallacys.



Despite the fact that you feel that any inquiry into religion and or gnosticism is vain, futile and ignorant, please, help us "Deny Ignorance" and cite those recorded sayings of Jesus that are clearly contradictory to the fallacies of an Essene/gnostic Jesus of Nazareth.

Or, please leave us to our ignorant inquiry and spare us your insults.



posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 02:20 PM
link   
reply to post by Rex282
 

Hi, Rex.

Thanks for joining in.

None of these people who indulged in mysticism understood the least bit about reality .

Buddha!...No? ....erm..Krishna! No again? Jesus! Well, he did say that we could all do what he had done, and more.


Their "knowledge" was all self inflicted.Their "gnosis" is gibberish that doesn't make anyones life any better.It's chasing the wind in a vacuum.
Like when Jesus took "Doubting" Thomas aside and told him the secrets that he then refused to pass on to the others?



The basis of truth is all very easy if anyone wants to "know" what the mystery of life is all about I'll tell them......go live.

I absolutely agree with you on that one.


All the gnosis in the universe will not reveal anyone "seeking" it because..it ain't hidden or lost..and even it was found it would make as much sense to most people as me explaining the general relativity to the feral cat that lives in my backyard(if he'd even listen!).

Sorry, I have to disagree entirely here: feral cats are listening all the time, for sounds that mean either danger, play, or food! It's to keep them alert!



No, seriously; why, then...has mankind ALWAYS felt the need to reach 'beyond'? To 'figure it out'?


gnosis (and all religion for that matter) is full of it.

This is quite a remark. Gnosis is the idea of figuring out who one is - and our connection to what is larger than us. It doesn't require a priest or imam or book, no scriptures or hell or prayers ... it requires only contemplation and introspection. Do you know Plato's shadow cave bit?


The search for gnosis is a red herring on a rabbit trail that leads to nowhere fast.


That's your opinion (and perhaps experience, I don't know). But people are besotted with the ideas all the same. Why?
edit on 2/11/14 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 02:35 PM
link   
reply to post by windword
 


wind, I saw your post after I saw his.

I hope you get applause from the mods for that one.
Awesome compilation of sources!!!

Here you go:
Have two:



posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 02:37 PM
link   
reply to post by wildtimes
 



Like when Jesus took "Doubting" Thomas aside and told him the secrets that he then refused to pass on to the others?

When did that happen?

The Gnosis that Jesus was supposed to have brought, according to the Gnostic Christians, were the passwords that were required to get past the Archons and be returned to the Pleroma when you died, otherwise the Archons returned you to the material world to be reincarnated. All the rest of it, like the nature of spirit and matter, came from the Gnostics, who, again, preceded Christ by at least two hundred years.



posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 02:53 PM
link   
reply to post by adjensen
 


From the Gospel of Thomas:

12 The disciples said to Jesus, "We know that you are going to leave us. Who
will be our leader?"
2
Jesus said to them, "No matter where you are, you are to go to James the
just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being."
13 Jesus said to his disciples, "Compare me to something and tell me what I
am like."
2
Simon Peter said to him, "You are like a just angel."
3
Matthew said to him, "You are like a wise philosopher."
4
Thomas said to him, "Teacher, my mouth is utterly unable to say what you
are like.
5
Jesus said, "I am not your teacher. Because you have drunk, you have
become intoxicated from the bubbling spring that I have tended."
6
And he took him, and withdrew, and spoke three sayings to him.
7
When Thomas came back to his friends, they asked him, "What did Jesus
say to you?"
8
Thomas said to them, "If I tell you one of the sayings he spoke to me, you
will pick up rocks and stone me, and fire will come from the rocks and devour
you."



3 Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) imperial rule is
in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.
2
If they say to you, 'It is
in the sea,' then the fish will precede you.
3
Rather, the (Father's) imperial rule
is inside you and outside you.
4
When you know yourselves, then you will be
known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father.
5
But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the
poverty."

4 Jesus said, "The person old in days won't hesitate to ask a little child seven
days old about the place of life, and that person will live.
2
For many of the first
will be last,
3
and will become a single one."


I think it's pretty easy to see that he's talking about reincarnation, and self-knowledge (gnosis). Asking a child of seven days about the place of life.... because they know. I used to look in my babies's eyes, and could see it: they just KNEW!!


edit on 2/11/14 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 03:01 PM
link   
reply to post by wildtimes
 



I think it's pretty easy to see that he's talking about reincarnation, and self-knowledge (gnosis).

Well, yes, that was one of the Gnostic Christian's core beliefs.

They lumped people into three groups -- enlightened Gnostics (those with the passwords,) unenlightened Gnostics (those who died before learning the passwords) and Christians, and everyone else.

Enlightened Gnostics would return to the Pleroma when they died, unenlightened Gnostics and Christians were reincarnated, and everyone else was obliterated.

But, again, the whole "Christ was the bringer of Gnosis" originated with Valentinus in the middle of the Second Century, and the passwords were, of course, lost by the Fourth Century (they couldn't be written down,) so we know that Gnostic Christianity cannot possibly be correct.



posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 03:06 PM
link   
reply to post by adjensen
 


Where are you getting this password thing?

I don't recall anything about passwords or the like in any gnostic texts...

I tend to think the gnosis they speak of was actually written within the gospels... but thats me

edit on 11-2-2014 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 03:11 PM
link   
reply to post by Akragon
 



Where are you getting this password thing?

Sorry, I thought it was common knowledge.


Gnostic cosmology also varies, but the common theme of a number of heavens can be found in all accounts. The exact number of heavens is not clear, but there are at least seven and perhaps more. Each of these heavens is guarded by a being know as an Archon. These entities are responsible for extracting a password from the soul attempting to return to the Father. As The Apocalypse of Paul illustrates, the soul that fails to give the correct password is sent into the world to be reborn. (Source)



posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 03:17 PM
link   
reply to post by adjensen
 


I've read the AoP many times and I've never found anything about passwords being required...

that book is more about the judgements and punishments of spirits ascending through the heavens...




posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 03:30 PM
link   
reply to post by Akragon
 


I suppose that it depends on the translation, but I believe that this is what that guy was talking about:


The Spirit spoke, saying, "Give him the sign that you have, and he will open for you." And then I gave him the sign. He turned his face downwards to his creation and to those who are his own authorities.



posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 03:46 PM
link   

adjensen
reply to post by Akragon
 


I suppose that it depends on the translation, but I believe that this is what that guy was talking about:


The Spirit spoke, saying, "Give him the sign that you have, and he will open for you." And then I gave him the sign. He turned his face downwards to his creation and to those who are his own authorities.


That is an extremely vague reference to the idea that "passwords" are required to pass the archons...

IF you look up in the text a little higher its not that passwords are required, because the archons bring "witnesses" to the crimes of the spirits that are being judged...

In that paragraph you referenced it says... The old man spoke, saying to me, "Where are you going, Paul?

and the reply is was... "I am going to the place where I came from"...

The idea is also referenced in Thomas where is says...

Jesus said, "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is.

Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

The idea behind this is to not just believe that you are spirit and came into being before this incarnation... but to KNOW that you lived before this time...

and this...

19. Jesus said, "Congratulations to the one who came into being before coming into being.

If you become my disciples and pay attention to my sayings, these stones will serve you

ITs not as if the writer was saying all that is needed was a secret hand shake or just flip the archon the correct sign...

The sign that is needed is knowing that the spirit existed before its incarnation... and this is done by example of the actions in ones life

also covered in the gospels by the way....




posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 04:18 PM
link   
adjensen
reply to post by vethumanbeing
 



Gnostism originates out of the Order of Melchisedek (way back machine) and the Essenes sect Qumran;



adjensenNo, it does not.Gnosticism is the religious aspect of Greek Platonism, it predates the Essenes by a long time, and comes out of a completely different culture. It also followed Melchizedek by at least a thousand years, so either you have no sense of time, or you don't know anything about Melchizedek, the Essenes or Gnosticism.


Greeks, Plato? The Essenes had Egyptian links. Melchisedek was not born having physical parents (it was understood he was not born here on this planet); he was a spiritual being that came from the heavens."Melchisedek gave Abraham bread and wine after the latter had conquered the Kings of Edom;" this is a metaphor saying he had conquered elements within his own mind (ego); and was ready to continue with his souls evolution. Melchisedek 'initiated' Abraham to continue to a new level of concsiousness.


[I]VeteranHumanBeingJesus was an Essene and had this knowledge.



adjensenThe Essenes were strict Jewish ascetics whose slavish adherence to the Law was something that Christ specifically taught against, clearly indicating that he was not one of them.


The Essenes were not strict at all (today would be a yogi/swami ashram, or a rosicrusion community in Califorinia) They lived in a commune where the women and children had access to all knowlege of the sects tenents. They bathed together; no segregation, women were treated as equals (one of the reasons they were ostricised). Slavish adherence to Hebraic Law? This notion is absolutely laughable. They were kaballists they knew the secrets of energy and levitation.


adjensen don't understand what is so hard to "get" about the religious landscape in the time of Christ and the centuries which followed him. Take a few hours to read the historical record, and the differences between the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the Essenes, the Christians, the Gnostics and the Gnostic Christians is obvious. Instead, people idly speculate, invent their own facts, and dismiss reality, simply because it doesn't fit into what they would prefer reality to be.


I dont get the landscape either, and NO ONE was documenting it at the time it happened (yours truly included) EXCEPT THE ESSENES and what they hid for prosperity; and was found: their Gnostic scriptures, the Dead Sea Scrolls. Centuries following, cant vouch for faulty memories or as this was an oral tradition the fish caught becomes of Moby Dick purportions. I dont idly speculate or invent. You simply are not ready to hear the truth; and it shows.
edit on 11-2-2014 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 04:19 PM
link   

wildtimes
reply to post by Rex282
 

Hi, Rex.


Thanks for joining in.

None of these people who indulged in mysticism understood the least bit about reality .

Buddha!...No? ....erm..Krishna! No again? Jesus! Well, he did say that we could all do what he had done, and more.


Thanks Wild
Firstly on the last statement.Yahoshua never said "everyone" could do what he did.He ONLY told the disciples that(and the majority of all things "Christians" think he said They would do).

Mysticism is seeking "mystery"...in other words something they can't be found.Yahoshua NEVER sought mystery ...ever.He knew..period.Not through "mystery teachings".If he did ...he flat out lied in the records and is to not be trusted at all.However he did clearly state EVERYTHING I do and say I receive from the creator God the Father.In other words Yahoshua never sought mysteries nor preached anyone else to.



Their "knowledge" was all self inflicted.Their "gnosis" is gibberish that doesn't make anyones life any better.It's chasing the wind in a vacuum.
Like when Jesus took "Doubting" Thomas aside and told him the secrets that he then refused to pass on to the others?

That's in the so called Gnostic gospel of Thomas..which is complete fabrication.There are no "Mysteries"(things not known) to be known.That is why they are... unknown!..and no "science" is not mystery it is discovering what has always been there to be known.Just because a 2 year old doesn't "know" what 2+2 is doesn't make it a mystery.


The basis of truth is all very easy if anyone wants to "know" what the mystery of life is all about I'll tell them......go live.

I absolutely agree with you on that one.

and that "fact" should be the only fact that "anyone" needs to know because it is the core of the only thing that CAN be known.



posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 04:31 PM
link   
reply to post by Rex282
 


Pardon me.... Thomas is a complete fabrication?

Ahem.... have you read it, or are you just regurgitating what you've been told?

The First Synod of ATS: The Gospel of Thomas

Part II






new topics

top topics



 
11
<< 1  2    4  5  6 >>

log in

join