The Origins of Gnosticism

vethumanbeing

I would suppose there are no easy answers; and you have to seek them for yourself.

This is kind of my whole point tho.

That's all gnosticism seems to point to, secrets or a mystery that one needs to eternally search for.

It's like the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Metaphorical and not actually obtainable.

People love a mystery, it keeps them coming back for more, but if there are any actual secrets, I've yet to, or maybe aren't supposed to ever find them

Maybe they don't exist, and it's the journey...

reply to post by Beavers


It's all cool.

I think that Gnosis is an evolving thing. What used to be considered magical secrets are now mathematical sciences and chemistry sciences that are taught to children.

Music was magic, and the Catholic Church, at one point regulated what was considered proper music for the masses to hear, because they feared the emotional control musicians had over people. Now any teenager can start a garage band and manipulate his neighbors emotions! LOL.

Today, watching a movie or reading a book can offer an individual an experience of "gnosis" that can not be completely shared. It becomes a "secret" knowledge, that even others who have seen the movie or read the book can't completely compare to your experience.

Beavers
veteranhumanbeing

VHBI would suppose there are no easy answers; and you have to seek them for yourself.

BeaversThis is kind of my whole point tho.
That's all gnosticism seems to point to, secrets or a mystery that one needs to eternally search for.It's like the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Metaphorical and not actually obtainable.

I dont like the format at all; but if you didnt work at it there is no reward for your souls progression. I do not like the system that is in place, but for those that work at it are the ones to be rewarded. All of this knowledge was available during the Sumerian/Egyption/Maya cultural times. It was removed (direct communication telepathy to the demi-gods) for the reason that 'mating' or sharing of genetics, an engineering of the species was occurring. Think of it as a hard drive was magnetically completely swiped. Start all over again; without any context of a god figure.

BeaversPeople love a mystery, it keeps them coming back for more, but if there are any actual secrets, I've yet to, or maybe aren't supposed to ever find them

Maybe they don't exist, and it's the journey.

Maybe thats the point, we will continue to figure this miasma out; we have to, to improve our understanding of why we (in totality as a specie) are here. You will find this in your journey; the fact you are reading this prooves it. There really are no secrets anymore; common media is exposing these things. Of course you are to find them; its entirely personal is all (no great Christian rapture) tuned to your own beings awareness. Ive always been told dont understand too quickly or you will blow/burn yourself up (cant take the aether energy all at once). My answer? a Teflon/kevlar body suit should have been born within; instead being clad in a sheet of human skin cells (and BTW where are my feathered wings, on backorder? ).

reply to post by windword


this makes a lot of sense!

reply to post by vethumanbeing


so are you telling me that there are secrets, that you yourself have obtained?

or are you just like me and interested in secrets that may or may not actually be there?

Beavers
reply to post by veteranhumanbeing

Beaversso are you telling me that there are secrets, that you yourself have obtained? or are you just like me and interested in secrets that may or may not actually be there?

Yes (I know them; all of the secrets important) and I as others here are attempting an enlightment. Not to say it will work; I use humor; others are using stultifying gratitudes; giving what you ask or have a need for; rote scriptural evidence or esoteric conundrums or completely indeciferable Eastern beginnings of the OUM and your correlation; musings (they have no idea they are working in tandum with me whatever you do DO NOT TELL THEM). Of course the secrets led me to decifer them (like a dog to a buried bone). Apologies to all (if they didnt know this they do now).

As far as I can tell (and I certainly don't know everything!), gnosticism is an ancient, even pre-historic, practice....

I believe it's generally the consensus among historians that Christian Gnosticism was a movement a century or two after the canonical gospels were authored. Obviously Christian Gnosticism won't go back prior to Christ existing. I'm not too familiar with other forms of gnosticism but I know Christian Gnosticism had beliefs that would distinguish itself from other mystical traditions. Such as the belief the physical world was created by an evil being.

reply to post by vethumanbeing


so where would you suggest ones starts to look...

or am I just asking for a riddle, by even posing that question?

reply to post by wildtimes

I certainly wouldn't call myself an expert on this. Though it's interesting to note, that once again, biblical history leads right back to Sumerian history. Many believe that Sumeria's list of antedeluvian kings is the precursor of the hebrew patriarchs. So whether Adam and Seth existed is somewhat irrelevant. We can't really say how much of what was written about these patriarchs(kings) is true. Though in my opinion, there was a kingly line it seems in antiquity that seemed to be the purveyors of knowledge, and Enoch, aka Metatron(the knower of secrets), seems to be the most legendary among them.

The Merkabah tradition emphasizes the role of Metatron as the “Knower of Secrets,” Myzr According to 3 Enoch he is “wise in the secrets and Master of the mysteries.” He is the one who received these secrets from the angels and from the Lord (the Holy One). He serves also as “the Revealer of Secrets,” the one who is responsible for the transmission of the highest secrets to the Princes under him, as well as to mankind. In ch. 38 of 3 Enoch, Metatron told to R. Ishmael that he was the person who revealed secrets to Moses, in spite of the protests of heavenly hosts:

Source
There is so much more to all this. There's a mountain of writing on Enoch, his reign as a king in antiquity, his hiding of the secrets and mysteries between two pillars, and on and on. Whoever he really was, he seems to be at the root of gnosticism, from my perspective. If he is, that means gnosticism goes back before the local flooding that happened in that area. We could well be talking 9000bc and beyond.

Or was he a character, among others, made up to embody a teaching? I personally think he might very well have been a real person.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy

Obviously Christian Gnosticism won't go back prior to Christ existing.

Christian Gnosticism didn't require that (Jesus) Christ actually existed. It's focus was on the aetherial figure "Christ" which is an "emanation" of the divine being known as the Aeon. Like the way Christ appeared to Saul of Tarsus on the road to Damascus, in spirit. Christian Gnostics had a relationship with "Christ" in the exact same way that Christians claim to today, in spirit only.

They just didn't need to accept that "Christ" ever came to earth as a human to have a spiritual experience with him/it. To them, Jesus was an oracle being used by the "Christ", not divine in his own right.

For some Gnostic cults, Osirus and Horus were emanations of the Aeon, in Greece, it was Serapis. In some, it was the emanation of the God of the "Unspoken Name". Gnosticism doesn't require a flesh and bones savior to die for your sins. And, there could be many emanations.

The fact that it didn't matter to Christian Gnostics if Christ/Aeon came to earth in human form, or if this Christ/Aeon spoke through oracles, was a huge threat to the Roman Catholics, who required the belief that Jesus WAS divine and that Jesus WAS God in the flesh, as per the Nicaean Creed. That's why they Gnostics had to be destroyed.

reply to post by wildtimes



Hmmnn. What could I tell you about Gnosis and Theosis. Theosis was quite the experience I must say. And did I find secrets? Yes. And I could even tell you of the "Tutorial". But do you think you could handle it? I'll think about it.


But let me give you a clue as to how the New Testament works. Many of the parables of Jesus Christ are actually references. References to stuff in the Old testament for starters. Here's an example.

Mark 10
35 And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire.
36 And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you?
37 They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.
38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:
40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

So who is he talking about here? There is a right and left hand to the Lord. You simply need to know where to look for them in the Old testament. Book of Zechariah and the book of Malachi.

In Zechariah the Lord has 2 personal assistants. The Branches. In Malachi they are called the Messengers. And in Revelation they are called the Witnesses. So yes. These parables that Jesus Christ spouts off with through the New Testament actually have hidden meanings. The trick is making the connection between the parable and what it's referring to.

reply to post by windword


I'm only on the 5th lecture in this course but I seem to have heard some conflicting information between what you said. I'm gonna re-watch the last two and hopefully come back with some interesting info.

Lost Christianities: Christian Scriptures and the Battles over Authentication

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


Ambitious! Do you have to pay for those lectures?

Anyway, here's some food for thought:

These are the opening words of the Poemandres, the first text of the Corpus Hermeticum; they provide a first insight into the visionary source of Hermetic Gnosis:

Upon a time while my mind was meditating on the things that are, my thought was raised to a great height, while the physical senses of my body were held back—just as are the senses of men who are heavy with sleep after a large meal, or from fatigue of body.

I thought I heard a Being more than vast—in size beyond all bounds—called out my name and say: "What wouldst thou hear and see, and what hast thou in mind to learn and know?"

And I said: "Who art thou?"

He answered: "I am Shepherd of Men, Mind of all-Masterhood; I know what thou desirest and I am with thee everywhere."

And I replied: "I long to learn the things that are, and comprehend their nature, and know God. This (I said) is what I desire to hear."

He answered me: "Hold in thy mind all thou wouldst know, and I will teach thee."

And with these words His aspect changed; and straightway, in the twinkling of an eye, all things were opened to me. And I saw a limitless Vision: all things turned into Light—sweet, joyous Light. And I became transported as I gazed....

gnosis.org...

Wow -
good morning everyone (Central Standard Time ) -
sun is just peeking over the eastern horizon - the moon was so bright coming in from the west window a while ago that it woke me from my sleep!

I'm going to do some more digging; want to thank everyone for their contributions - (Lunacy and wind, thanks for providing those links - Klass, excellent info, and yes, it all seems to go back to Sumer...)

Please note that I am talking not "only" about "Christian Gnosticism" - but Gnosticism in general - which goes way far back. Solomon used 'alchemy' (the Qabala), I know I've learned that - but it seems there's enough interest in this topic for us to all work together (maybe we can all get "Scholar" tags if we do this as a team of researchers!? - is that forum still open?)

Anyway, I'm off to find out more and try to piece together a picture. I also am looking more into the Avalon lore, which I believe is a holdover of pagan/pre-Christian shamanism originating in England...
the same story, but with female overseers rather than all men.

reply to post by ntech

And I could even tell you of the "Tutorial". But do you think you could handle it? I'll think about it.

I have no idea if I could 'handle it' or not. That, it seems, would be a decision for the 'teacher' to make initially; and for the pupil to then accept or decline.

It sounds to me, though, like you've been initiated into modern mysticism by some method - whether Masonic Rites or Rosicrucians or whatever...

For my part, I've studied this stuff for decades...in fact I'd be hard-pressed to figure out when/how I first got interested in it, but it seems to be part of my innate 'compass' to look for it.

(What - may I ask - is your avy? Someone's ankle-selfie? A pocket-shot of an elbow? )

Watching this one now:

The Nag Hammadi texts are more important than the Dead Sea Scrolls, says the first guy, ETA: Who, although not given on-screen identification, is Professor Gilles Quispel (died 2006). He was the original decoder of the Gospel of Thomas after the Nag Hammadi discovery.

This is a GREAT summary of what happened to gnosticism.

But yes; it goes back to the pre-Christian Cathars...and was squelched by the Roman Church - for centuries - and is now coming back - it is not "New Age" - it is a return to the ancient "know thyself and see that you are part of the Divine."



Here's another one that features Dr Quispel's work (it's longer - just started it - but it covers much of the same stuff, and adds even more), also discusses the Dead Sea Scrolls (which the other doesn't except in passing).

Check these videos out!!

reply to post by vethumanbeing

Gnostism originates out of the Order of Melchisedek (way back machine) and the Essenes sect Qumran;

No, it does not.

Gnosticism is the religious aspect of Greek Platonism, it predates the Essenes by a long time, and comes out of a completely different culture. It also followed Melchizedek by at least a thousand years, so either you have no sense of time, or you don't know anything about Melchizedek, the Essenes or Gnosticism.

Jesus was an Essene and had this knowledge.

The Essenes were strict Jewish ascetics whose slavish adherence to the Law was something that Christ specifically taught against, clearly indicating that he was not one of them.

I don't understand what is so hard to "get" about the religious landscape in the time of Christ and the centuries which followed him. Take a few hours to read the historical record, and the differences between the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the Essenes, the Christians, the Gnostics and the Gnostic Christians is obvious. Instead, people idly speculate, invent their own facts, and dismiss reality, simply because it doesn't fit into what they would prefer reality to be.

reply to post by adjensen

I don't understand what is so hard to "get" about the religious landscape in the time of Christ and the centuries which followed him.

It isn't hard to "get" - not at all.
Gnosticism is an ancient, universal idea. I know you hate videos, but if you'd just watch the shorter one above, you'd see how simple it really is. Jesus was a gnostic - he taught gnosticism - he was not religious; he would be horrified by what the Church has done to his teachings.

Just for me, my friend, will you watch just the first one? Suffer the vid to be viewed for me.

Please?

If "NO" is your answer, then read Tim Freke and Elaine Pagels. Please.

reply to post by wildtimes


It's not that I hate videos (though I usually do ) but that I can't watch them during the day. I've read Pagels, and, as with most liberal New Testament scholars, her brand of historical revisionism doesn't resonate with me.

Gnosticism was a specific religious view, Christian Gnosticism even more so (having built out a very detailed mythos,) and, as Gnosticism pre-dated Christ, he's obviously not the source of it, and as Gnostic Christianity post-dated him by well over a hundred years, and we know full well its source, Valentinus, we know that he isn't the source of that, either. Never mind the fact that Gnosticism and Judaism are inherently incompatible because of the conflict between duality and non-duality.

If you want to say that Christ espoused gnosticism, that being the Greek word for knowledge, yes, I would agree with you. If you want to say that he taught the Gnosis, or the secret knowledge of Gnosticism, absolutely not.

reply to post by adjensen

Never mind the fact that Gnosticism and Judaism are inherently incompatible because of the conflict between duality and non-duality.

Well, not according to the sources/historians referenced in the videos. It mentions the Jews and discusses how they thought.

Just because you don't like Pagels's ideas doesn't mean they are false, though, d!

Dr Quispel says there was "no virgin birth", "no resurrection, "no cross." Based on the Nag Hammadi texts.

Modern research (Cohen 1988) identifies Judaism, rather than Persia, as a major origin of Gnosticism. Many of the Nag Hammadi texts make reference to Judaism, in some cases with a violent rejection of the Jewish God.[85] Gershom Scholem once described Gnosticism as "the Greatest case of metaphysical anti-Semitism".[86] Professor Steven Bayme said gnosticism would be better characterized as anti-Judaism.[87] Recent research into the origins of Gnosticism shows a strong Jewish influence, particularly from Hekhalot literature.[88]

Source