Indonesians recognize 5 genders, while Americans recognize only 2

reply to post by soficrow


In S.E. Asia it is accepted that there are people born who are not attracted to the opposite sex. The Thai alphabet even has about 1/3 of the letters devoted to Ka-toy (kathoey) or "someone who likes the same sex" or so I have been told. Considering their language is based off of a sanskrit/Khmer written language it has been around a long time. Women who like women and form long lasting bonds as in marriage are the same as some very effeminate guys who dress and act female and have a relationship with a man; some even go so far as having an operation to have all the plumbing (except they can not have children) so they can emulate the female sex the best medical science can provide.
en.wikipedia.org...

Kathoeys are more visible and more accepted in Thai culture than transgender or transsexual people are in Western countries or the Indian subcontinent. Several popular Thai models, singers and movie stars are kathoeys, and Thai newspapers often print photos of the winners of female and kathoey beauty contests side by side. The phenomenon is not restricted to urban areas; there are kathoeys in most villages, and kathoey beauty contests are commonly held as part of local fairs.

Using the notion of Karma, some Thai believe that being a kathoey is the result of transgressions in past lives, concluding that kathoey deserve pity rather than blame.[8]

A common stereotype is that older well-off kathoey provide financial support to young men with whom they are in a personal relationship.[9]

Kathoeys currently face many social and legal impediments. Families (and especially fathers) are typically disappointed if a son becomes a kathoey, and kathoeys often have to face the prospect of coming out. However, kathoey generally have greater acceptance in Thailand than most other Asian countries.[10] Legal recognition of kathoeys and transsexuals is non-existent in Thailand: even if transsexuals have had genital reassignment surgery, they are not allowed to change their legal sex. Discrimination in employment remains rampant.[11] Issues can also arise in regards to access to amenities and gender allocation; for example, a kathoey and a transsexual who has undergone sexual reassignment surgery would still have to stay in an all-male prison.

I suppose it is a Buddhist thing but they seem to be accepted for who they are even though most know the life of a Kathoey is one of sorrow.

The male and female Kathoeys do not tend to act like some San Francisco flamer but stay within their chosen gender roles...just act normal in that role.
Some of the barber shops have all Kathoey's working and cutting hair and there are bars which have 100% Kathoeys working... I have seen some very pretty "Kathoey head turners" (I had to look twice and still was not sure) and Thailand still has Kathoey beauty contest where some are televised...

Katoey are everywhere in Thailand, working as fashion models, civil servants, sales clerks, scientists, bank tellers. Thailand's best-known sportsperson is surely Nong Toom, a transvestite kickboxer who has been featured in Time and Sports Illustrated. Buddhism doesn't demonize homosexuality, and Thailand has little of the homophobic violence prevalent in, for example, Russia, United States or other western and Mid Eastern cultures.

Usually Kathoeys work together in one place; birds of a feather tend to flock together etc etc .. Easy to spot for the most part



However IMO it should be understood tolerance does not equal acceptance. It just means live and let live. My wife had a boss (for about a year) at a shoe factory who was Kathoey and all the girls liked him because he was fair and actually cared for those who worked for him. Another advantage is the Kathoeys leave the girls alone and are not continually hitting on them..

So anyone with a small amount of reading the written history of various cultures the world over will realize Ka-toys have been around since before Alexander the great or those who preceded him...... just about any place you can name though out history, so IMO live and let live... I accept there are those who will never know the happiness a man and a woman can share but I would be the last one to cast the first stone. hahahaha and many thought I was a right wing wing nut !

crazyewok
Non PC I know but dont care.

Exactly, star for you. Life isn't politically correct and it's rather inane that we're redefining what doesn't need redefining just to make "people feel better". It doesn't matter if you're a transexual cross dresser that's bisexual. You were born with either a penis or vagina which makes you one of two things, either male or female. Of course there are exceptions (like the noted hermaphrodite) which I can understand having another gender definition.

I saw a post somewhere on some social networking site that said, "Not all females have a vagina". To me, that just shows you how idiotic we're becoming. Of course all women have a vagina. If you're a woman and don't have a vagina, you're a guy. Sorry to break it to you.

Even women who were born males aren't "true" women. It's only plastic surgery. I can make myself look like Michael Jackson, doesn't mean I'm actually Michael Jackson does it?

reply to post by 727Sky


Great post, thanks. For some reason, the kathoey thing in Thailand reminds me of the concubine situation in Japan - recognized as a life of sorrow, but accepted with pure Buddhist practicality.

reply to post by Auricom


You are confusing genitalia with gender identity. People are indeed correct that for the most part people are born with boy bits or girl bits. occasionally you will get the odd person born with both too, but for the most part hermaphrodites are rare.

However, as the indonesian people of sulawesi acknowledge, there are masculine women and feminine men. As one of the ladies said in the video,

"my village accepts me as long as i am a good person and i work hard"

That is a very grown up attitude from everyone on the matter really. She is how she is and as long as she pulls her weight, then she directly contributes to the greater good of her society. At the end of the day that's all that matters.

ChesterJohn

Pistoche
I propose to take it one step further and include hermaphrodite, with the 5 already present, I don't see why hermaphrodite isn't an option.

That would be a person with both sexual parts complete with breasts, penis, and vagina. I hope those words are not to vulgar.

Nope they're just body parts. While we're at it, do hermaphrodites also have fallopian tubes, testicles, ovaries, prostrate gland, and a uterus? Serious question. Because that's an awful lot of organs to tote around, and sounds like it would be a hormonal nightmare!

If I find an application that asks for race I usually put...Human.

If an application asks for sex I always answer...Yes!

*dons flame retardant suit*

If you have a penis, you are a male.
If you have a vagina, you are a female.
If you have both, you are a Hermaphrodite/Intersex.


SCIENCE!

It may sound like power but really it's not right. We are all male or female, in case of transgenders there must be one of either physically more present in a nutshell.

It's just like a power pyramid, the neutral spirit is head of everything while the shemale/hefemale appears to have more knowledge/power than a simple male/female, the latter must be the poor worker drones, the shemale/hefemale those who profit from everything and the neutral spirit who invented it and probably thought that would be the best solution for him/her/it.

It just amazes how many arrogants have responded in this thread - despite my pointing out gender roles vs sex - just to reiterate the US standing that if you have a penis you're male and if you have a vagina you're female, as far as GENDER.

Errr! What happened to DENY IGNORANCE?

Why equate gender with sex? They are not synonyms, are they? I mean, besides in the dichotomous "rep vs dem, white vs black, gay vs straight' American culture and all, pft.

Anyways, it was refreshing to see some of the more open minded here go into the Ktuey culture of Thailand (and Cambodia, where the term originitated) Interesting enough, in the indo-aryan world (that practically created khmer culture) we have the words Kutti and Kooni respectively, for the efeminite gendered men, of south/east asian society.

The Thai beauty pageant they have for transSexuals is really amazing; after researching, I've found the commonality: that these young women wo were born females, underwent the castration and reassignment surgery well before 18 years of age, when testosterone really starts to delivery hardcore masculine features such as enlarges chin, more prominent nose, wider shoulders, hairiness, thicker face, larger pores, etc. No wonder these transsexuals seem like they were practically born females. However, this beauty quest this is rooted in medical technology, and we still age regardless of gender and sex and outer 'beauty' doesn't last forever..

To me I would have spent all the money that went into the surgery on charity, instead on restoring blind(ed) children's vision, on fixing severe cleft lip so kids can express themselves better, on saving lives, as opposed to tweaking whats between my legs, and obsessiving over conforming to a dichotomous SEX standard- instead of embracing one's unique gender indentity.

gardener

practically born females.

Practically but wernt.

Unless they can change the XY cromsomes to XX then they are still males, except with multlated gentiles.

Up to them if they want to multilate themselfs and pump there bodys with hormones but dont expect me to call them anything but male.

crazyewok


How ever you put they will always be diffrent. Im a Hetro male and I would NEVER date a male who has had a sex change to look like a female.

As far as you know. :|

reply to post by crazyewok


yes, and the same with art. you either like 1 style of art or not. and music. if you like 2 styles of music you are a freak.

reply to post by crazyewok


do you wear make-up? shave? paint your nails. cut your hair? workout in a gym? how do you alter your body?

Err umm didn't I say they LOOK LIKE They were practically born females after the castration and surgeries?

I totally agree with you that there sex is male if they're XY or XYY, or female if theyre XX or XXY (DUH)

And agree with you EVENMORESO about that fact that they are mutilating themselves and hormone pumping and basically its a pageant to see who CONFORMS to most to looking "female" (sex) instead of what they were born (male sex)... instead of simply embracing their Ktuey culture and putting all that money to more charitable use than.. .VANITY.

Ya, up to them.. but gender requires no surgery, it's a state of mind and one's unique role in society (not the sex they were born).

taoistguy
reply to post by crazyewok

 

yes, and the same with art. you either like 1 style of art or not. and music. if you like 2 styles of music you are a freak.

Rubbish.

Art and music likes and dislikes are not gentical! There no hard codes gentics that say you can only like 1 type!

You either have the genes for being or being female. End of. You cant be both. Transgender is purely physiological. I knew a mentaly ill person that thought he was a bat, didnt make him a bat.

End of the day they can do what they like with there bodys, it there to do with as they will, but dont expect me to recognise them as anymore than acting.

taoistguy
reply to post by crazyewok

 

do you wear make-up? shave? paint your nails. cut your hair? workout in a gym? how do you alter your body?

All of that is still cosmetic.

My DNA and cromosomes ares till the same at the end of the day.


Anyway I didnt say transgender people should be banned for doing what they do, as I said it there body. But dont expect me to treat them other than the gender they were born with.

our physical bodies are limited to a few designs, but our sexualities are broad.

reply to post by gardener


it's not only indonesia, but most of east asia or south east asia are tolerant of more than 2 gender roles. society here is more accepting and even incorporates their antics in mainstream comedy and showbiz.

however, no country (or government) in asia recognizes same-sex marriage though.. the people may implicitly accept it among peers or circle of friends, but to publicly recognize it in court or in church is stretching it too far.

Well said, although, Cambodia has already for centuries and presently still, recognized same-sex couples that live together for 10 yrs or more as already LEGALLY married:

www.gaystarnews.com...

I'm not surprised, considering Cambodia's Angkor CIty centuries ago, was bigger than even NYC or ROME. Too bad the city hit an ecological disaster, and the most thriving, progressive community in the world, dispersed just centuries ago.

taoistguy
but our sexualities are broad.

XY

XX

Doesnt seem to broad to me.

Your one or the other.

Anything else is just physiological. As I said I knew a guy who thought he was a bat does that make him a bat?