Documentary: Gays hunted like wild animals in Russia

WilsonWilson
I don't understand the hang up on choice. If I choose to have relationships with women, why should that allow others to persecute me?
I choose to be different from you therefore you attack me.

It may be a choice for some. I suspect that a large majority of people have predilections on both sides of the batting cage. But for many, like myself, sexuality was not a choice. I am as straight as can be, and have never seen any other option. My oldest son...he was very obviously self identifying femininely from the youngest age. I do not believe his homosexuality is a choice. He quite literally was born that way.

None of it is a reason for others to hate. You are right. And it isn't as simple as "either/or". Afterall, human psychology is involved. LOL

reply to post by flammadraco


The thing is , I have nothing but compasion for any group of people being persecuted and have always been suportive of our gay members,,

You do know there are gay christians, yes? Muslim's? Jews?

spiritspeak

flammadraco
reply to post by spiritspeak

 

As a gay man I can categorically tell you the following facts;

1) We do not choose to live a life of persecution, we are born this way. Those that think its a choice are getting confused with Bisexuality

That is your belief but not scientific fact. Even amongst the gay community some say born and some say choice. Whatever the cause, you say so and act that way however

2) We do not have an agenda, we do however want the same rights as everyone else, not special rights, not more rights but the same rights. We pay our taxes, we are involved in our local communities.

Ofcourse you do, everyone does every group does and for lgbt's to be perfectly safe means world domination or 'acceptance'. However part of the gay thing has to do with dependencies. If the world would become gay then the 'forbidden' part of it will be gone. Which further complicates things for Russia since if they would actively begin antigaypropaganda abroad they would eventually end up at APA in the USA since they've said most things after decades of fathers and mothers talking to their sons and daughters. I would rather see them talk than fight when it gets to such a situation. Before it became an issue, I didn't care about someone's sexuality unless it was a woman who refused me, because I wouldn't want to know about a male. I regarded everyone equal in terms of rights but years later I think otherwise because I'm not sure if I would want this 'extra' thing in my reality and spend hours talking about it while I need to get to my life. And no, I'm not interested, just afraid of WW3 and thinking about emigration to a safer place because of this. At some point either Russia will have all lgbt's in camps or identified and start a proactive campaign abroad or lgbt's in Russia will become too numerous, they will have too many friends and might overthrow the government to change the law is what I think.

Do you really think we're looking to overthrow governments and turn the world gay...? I mean, just think about that for a moment... Say it out loud if you have to, it sounds silly.

Anyhow, this thread is getting way off topic. I suggest we all leave it be as it's not worth anyone's time, and what I mean by it's not worth anyone's time is this thread, not the topic (just reiterating so nobody misconstrues that). It's just becoming a giant flame war, so everyone grab a beer or whatever it is you do and calm yourselves.

I would like to apologise to anyone that I offended yesterday. I allowed some comments from other users to enrage me and lashed out, and I am humbly sorry for any offence caused by my anti Christian comments. I was using it as an example but it was in poor taste and perhaps it would have been better to allow myself some "time Out" before responding to the homophobic comments.

I would also like to say I think it's a sad thing I can't seem to get along very well. I would like readers to view me as neutral in the gay issue, I am neither pro nor against homosexuality. I have my truth about sex, another has another truth, I do things which support my truth and so should everyone. Ofcourse I understand my side has always won since we're talking about nature and the basics, what came first, even though I am aware of this I understand I need to work on my neutral stance but I ask readers to be patient as it appears nobody has made a neutral stance and if there were they are likely in hiding somewhere avoiding the subject altogether.

If I am neutral, why do I respond? Well it's because people around me chose the government which chose psychiatry as the highest authority which states homosexuality is a normal expression while I disagree, but which doesn't mean I have to oppose anything they do just as with religions, somebody wants to build a church that's fine. But when they ask me to consider their faith as if it were true, as science tries to do through psychiatry, I must decline the request as it would come in direct conflict with my own definition of love, meaning I don't want to be brainwashed and mix up my male/female plus/minus natural system and make everything grey. No not gay although I can laugh at such a joke. Point being anyone can choose to believe that and make themselves believe they are happy and I won't say a thing and try to hide my faith but shouldn't try to push it unto others. I understand I need to emigrate because of this because I really don't want to cause trouble, just that science adds a neutral stance in their definitions so that when they describe love, they don't put it on par with 'the other' things. Which I guess is impossible.

reply to post by spiritspeak


I do understand what you are saying, and I totally understand your point of view when you believe certain things are being forced upon you. Some people feel like religion is being forced upon them. Only yesterday I had a “MOB” of Jehovah’s Witnesses at my front door, I kindly told them I was not interested and they moved on. I live in a country where the LGBT have the same rights as everyone else, not more rights, not special rights but the same rights. Yes we do have a Gay Pride March, which for the last few years I could not understand why it still took place as we have everything we wanted, but I believe it’s a celebration of our culture and history of the struggle now rather than a protest. 20 years ago when I first went on the Parade, people threw stones at us and booed us, now 20 years later, over a million people line the street and cheer and celebrate the event.

I’m not sure if you live in Russia, but if you do, I totally understand that you probably felt the need to defend your country as would any ATS member if their country was being bashed in a thread such as this. I personally was not attacking your country; I even said that I thought Putin was a great statesman. I was attacking those people who had very strong anti gay views as I see that as a personal attack on me, just as you found this thread as an attack on you and your fellow countrymen (that is of course if you are Russian?)

That being said, the reason I “lost It” was the amount of antigay language being used on this and other LGBT threads. I personally do not want to see thread after thread about gay people on ATS as a lot of members have very strong opinions on this subject and no matter what one side says to the other, views will not be changed. There may be subjects in the future that you and I will agree on, there may be more subjects that you and I will disagree on, but the fact is, we will never agree on this subject as we are on the opposite ends of the spectrum on this subject.

It would be easy for me to say that I will not engage in the threads that are bashing the LGBT community, but that would be as hard for you not to engage in a thread that you felt was bashing Russia, which is understandable.

flammadraco
reply to post by spiritspeak

 

I’m not sure if you live in Russia, but if you do, I totally understand that you probably felt the need to defend your country as would any ATS member if their country was being bashed in a thread such as this. I personally was not attacking your country; I even said that I thought Putin was a great statesman. I was attacking those people who had very strong anti gay views as I see that as a personal attack on me, just as you found this thread as an attack on you and your fellow countrymen (that is of course if you are Russian?)

No I am not Russian but European.

That being said, the reason I “lost It” was the amount of antigay language being used on this and other LGBT threads. I personally do not want to see thread after thread about gay people on ATS as a lot of members have very strong opinions on this subject and no matter what one side says to the other, views will not be changed. There may be subjects in the future that you and I will agree on, there may be more subjects that you and I will disagree on, but the fact is, we will never agree on this subject as we are on the opposite ends of the spectrum on this subject.

That is my problem, I can't change my view or anyone else. Love is between male/female and is there to create babies, to sustain life. No one can convince me otherwise of this and I don't want to believe anything else. I also believe my soul will go to heaven but not from this planet once it is in complete darkness, the day all countries have LGBT rights because that would mean by law people may not believe in their idea of love anymore or risk becoming criminals and it would mean the original idea of love has been corrupted in the hearts and minds of all people on the globe. So that is why I must go elsewhere and could not be with the group of earth souls anymore. And it is because of this that I would argue for people to accept my neutral stance and let the forces of good and evil, pro or against duke it out in a fair manner. Believe it or not, we are all fighting over who has the most powerful love because if you have that, you are unstoppable, unbreakable, you cannot be harmed even if everyone believed you have been stopped, in their imaginary reality that might be true but not in reality, which dictates male/female without compensation of others. And Earth might be a limbo in this but in heaven everyone has only one idea of love and those who disagree get cast out. And even then in hell everyone might convince each other everything is fine but if you have seen heaven, you know it's not the case.

It would be easy for me to say that I will not engage in the threads that are bashing the LGBT community, but that would be as hard for you not to engage in a thread that you felt was bashing Russia, which is understandable.

Criticism isn't always bashing. Bashing means to fight against something like physical violence and the pen is mightier than the sword (but the keyboard always wins or voice control/brain interface actually when the software is done developing). I am just saying how it is trying to be polite.

reply to post by spiritspeak

spiritspeak
That is my problem, I can't change my view or anyone else. Love is between male/female and is there to create babies, to sustain life.

Your opinion doesn't match reality.

Sex is also for pleasure, and love does happen between two men and two women. Just because you may not agree with it, doesn't mean it's not happening.

Homosexuality is unnatural & wrong. Period.

LandoTX
Homosexuality is unnatural & wrong. Period.

Bigotry is unnatural & wrong.
Period.

reply to post by LandoTX

LandoTX
Homosexuality is unnatural & wrong. Period.

Just because you say something in a forceful way, that doesn't make it true.

natural means "pertaining to nature", people and animals "pertain to nature" and homosexuality happens in animals and people, therefore it is not unnatural. It's simple logic.

People do not like logic when it interferes with their belief systems.

amkia

flammadraco
reply to post by amkia

 

Yes I do have a problem with it as it's homophobic. It's obvious what your views are from the post you made.

Then thank God it is your problem and the hypocrites you follow as I try not to be one and freely voice what I dislike. Right now Russia has more freedom than the Amerikans as you mentioned (super power).



“If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all.”
― Noam Chomsky

Read your bolded statement again and try to explain to me how that is not the most the most idiotic reference you've ever seen in your life.

"If we don't believe in freedom to beat people in the streets and make laws against other peoples' rights, then we don't have freedom".

You must be quite the philosopher.



I'm sorry, but that was just so stupid, there's no other way to describe it.

LandoTX
Homosexuality is unnatural & wrong. Period.

1. Prove it.

2. If you prove it, don't do it. Other people doing it has absolutely no effect on you.

LandoTX
Homosexuality is unnatural & wrong. Period.

To some, there is only male/female and only those create effects and are natural and everything else is unnatural. But it still exists according to some and so everything would be considered natural.

To some, there is a lot more, they can discuss it in gaybars and nobody is forced to go there. Just like no one is forced to go to a church. I would like to remain neutral, meaning I don't have to deal with it directly ever. Someone talks to me about it I don't have to speak about it, they should go speak to like minded.

But we can all agree physical violence is wrong and we should all discuss this in a civilized manner, meaning no immature behaviour or disrespect, we are all human foremost.

TheRegal

LandoTX
Homosexuality is unnatural & wrong. Period.

1. Prove it.

2. If you prove it, don't do it. Other people doing it has absolutely no effect on you.

edit on 15-2-2014 by TheRegal because: (no reason given)

Come on you know no one can prove such a thing as love unless a male and female get married. Which might be love but there are higher kinds of loves out there.

A male cannot prove love to another male nor can it proven by scientific reproducible means, meaning a male cannot prove love to multiple females since love encompasses almost everything of life and should produce children, or have the promise in case of infertility. Whatever the homosexual love is, I don't know and don't want to know since I choose the other which is enough for all of eternity for me. And so it is a thing that cannot ever be proven so don't ask please.

dfens

gardener

So, why are gangs of Russian men nationwide - as documented - stalking other men, ambushing them, and brutally gangbanging them.

What, like raping them? If so that's pretty gay.

That's usually just a homophobic knee jerk reaction. This is from a country that is a couple decades behind the US social curve. Russia probably has about the same percentage of homosexuals as the US. It's just not as culturally acceptable. People were and still are getting beat up/made fun of all the time for being gay.

My opinion is that people are insecure and want to go along with the crowd. People open up more when they aren't afraid of being ridiculed or worse for their beliefs.

No its their society When the soviet Union fell apart they are still dealing with repercussions. This isnt really about gays this is a lame attempt to solve a problem the Russians are having. Pedophilia became a major problem the russian mafia aka former KGB started prostituting under age children. Then there was the underage russian brides being sold overseas as well. It got really bad their children actually were being victimized. Well some scientist made the comment that homosexuals were more likely to be pedophiles according to some statistics he came up with. In the studies like this what they do is look at people convicted of being a pedophile and then check their sexual orientation. When a study is done in this manner you will find gay males will make up a large proportion of pedophiles. The problem is People who want to have sex with kids are already severely confused about sexuality and often times cannot have a normal sexual relations. Meaning the study is automatically biased. If you look at the total number of gays and then take that approach you find it is an extremely small percentage.Then there is another problem related to terminology arises because sexual abuse of male children by adult men is often referred to as "homosexual molestation.By saying "homosexual" (or "heterosexual" when a man abuses a female child) refers to the victim's gender in relation to that of the perpetrator. Unfortunately people mistakenly interpret it as referring to the perpetrator's sexual orientation. When dealing with pedophioles some have no orientation its all about control. however in these studies because the victim was a male and it as a man they assume he's gay this is a false assumption.

The Russian people think this is helping their children in truth its probably making things worse since gay children will now have to suppress there true nature.This is bound to have repercussions in the future.As far as the government i think in their case they dont want to seem to be for pedophiles and there is a large enough voting block that thinks they are the cause that im afraid the politicians are just pandering to fear and stupidity. In the end I dont know who to blame for this mess well i take that back i blame the russian mob for creating this environment in the first place.

ShrewdThinking
Do you really think we're looking to overthrow governments and turn the world gay...? I mean, just think about that for a moment... Say it out loud if you have to, it sounds silly.

No, some people want everyone to keep the dream alive, to make the whole world believe it's a true thing which exists so it can become even more real (although there is a lot of intelligent life out there which disagrees, not that many have contact). Even if it replaces the original dream or parts of one's dream become next to worthless since it's unusable information for most. Not overthrowing just because that one reason, more like multiple reasons and then slip in the scientific doctrines about sexuality.

Anyhow, this thread is getting way off topic. I suggest we all leave it be as it's not worth anyone's time, and what I mean by it's not worth anyone's time is this thread, not the topic (just reiterating so nobody misconstrues that). It's just becoming a giant flame war, so everyone grab a beer or whatever it is you do and calm yourselves.

I believe it's an important issue. People shouldn't get hurt no matter their color or preference in anything and a lot more reasons why some people are considered abnormal or a minority or have to deal with prejudice.

spiritspeak

That is my problem, I can't change my view or anyone else. Love is between male/female and is there to create babies, to sustain life. No one can convince me otherwise of this and I don't want to believe anything else.

That is a huge problem if you actually think that you can't change your own view.

Love is not between male an female only. What we have established as "love" is a chemical reaction in the human brain; a release of dopamine, norepinephrine and phenylethylamine.



So you can sit there and say that two people can't love eachother if they don't belong to specific genders all you want, but that is actually not an "opinion" at all. An "opinion" is something that you base on grey areas; there are no longer any here. Homosexuals and heterosexuals both experience love. To say that homosexuals do not experience love is not a view or opinion, it's a fallacy.

reply to post by TheRegal


Your wrong love is not a chemical reaction love creates a chemical reaction.And most humans are capable of love unless you a psychopath in which case they dont. So which gender you choose has nothing to do with the process so you're right there. Look bottom line is gays make up about 3 percent of the population Turn out it looks like its a defect in the mothers on switching off their x chromosomes. See women have two x chromosomes when they have a baby one or the other shuts off it appears if not done correctly seems to affect sexual orientation. So its not a choice its not against nature since its caused by nature humans are not the only species by the way. I read an article that actually mentioned how people being gay helped the early hominids because they were able to help with child rearing and overall health of the tribes. i must say a bit of a stretch but i can see there nmight be a biological advantage or else it wouldn't be here.

The brain chemicals are unproven, there is no scientific evidence for 'love' being produced by a male brain while having another male brain as an object of affection. Even then it would show love is from a male brain it would be MF (male/female love) and from a female brain it would be (FM love). So MM or FF love would be different chemicals. Pointing at the romantic version only and when the body is ready to have children ofcourse, because that is why romantic love exists.

Even though I know this discussion is about convincing arguments and I had to change my words a few times. Those wanting proof or testing love do it wrong many times as well, which is also a problem in Russia and other countries, to test it means to marry whoever tested it since it's eternal. So it can't really be tested since 'it' doesn't really exist. It reminds me of witch hunts back in the medieval times and it's wrong.

I still believe people need to live isolated, that is the only solution. Then we can have different realities which don't have to conflict with eachother and everybody should be happy.

If homosexuals want to be around heteros so badly, then why do they choose to be different? Why do they not become the same as heteros. And when do women in the west stop using it as a threat.