Time to lose the 'Chemtrail and Geo-Engineering' Forum

Twice in the space of less than 24 hours I have seen posters use the existence of the Chemtrail Forum as proof that chemtrails exist. Pointing out the flaw in that reasoning requires a receptive and open mind on the receiving end. Lumping chemtrails, which are the result of people not understanding what they have seen every day for the entirety of their lives, together with geo-engineering, which is a serious topic with important consequences for human society does a double injustice. It encourages people in their delusions while making the important topic of geo-engineering look silly. It would be much better to discuss geo-engineering in the 'Fragile Earth' Forum, while banishing all the chemtrail threads to 'The Gray Area' where they do not require the evidence that their proponents are unable to produce. I realize this is an unpopular stand, but a quick survey of the forum as it now stands shows an overwhelming preponderance of 'They're poisoning the skies' threads, with very few that discuss actual geo-engineering issues. Any thoughts?

reply to post by DJW001

Twice in the space of less than 24 hours I have seen posters use the existence of the Chemtrail Forum as proof that chemtrails exist.

Well they are wrong for that and should not do it. But if we get rid of it because they are doing it, shouldn't we have to get rid of the UFO forum and the Paranormal forum and many others because they aren't proven phenomena either, and are open to that same kind of abuse?

I say just call them out on it... a named forum does not a phenomenon make! (Logical people reading their claim do get that, I feel certain. They are really just making themselves look ridiculous, not the forum itself.)

Now these are just my 2 cents, so I am not saying you are wrong to feel what you feel. Just weighing in is all.

i find the topic quite interesting. the same way you can say "nobody can prove they are real", you can also say, " you can't prove they are not real", by the way the theory is shot down. i'm talking about air temperatures at the altitudes the jets/planes are flying at. i've been watching the sky very closely since i started wondering about this "theory". you will see more "chemtrail" threads during the winter time in the northern hemisphere. let's face it, if it's ice crystals from engine exhaust, we will see more trails in the winter because i would imagine the air temperatures are colder way up there just like they are on a winter day near ground level. the problem i have is, the theory, which ever side you take, is inconsistent. when i feel like there could be shady things going on up in the sky, i will usually take pics on those days.

another thing i realized was, how many flights leave a major airport in a few hours time. i was at a college football game, at the end of 2013, at the stadium where the last Super Bowl was played in Jersey. i didn't realize how many planes take off in that short span of time.

now, the thing that i find is still shady: the days where i'm suspicious, there are blatant coverings of the entire sky at ground level due to expanding "trails" only, no natural clouds. they all follow the same general line/direction (except for when you see the "X's" or "checkerboard patterns" from time to time). they almost always seem to be present as the Sun is rising and/or in front of the Sun. they do it very quickly with many aircraft following the same path across the sky, within seconds of each other at times. i am outdoors for my job so i get to see the whole sky progression from different areas. there is definitely some kind of agenda, whether it be an experiment, "geo-engineering", some kind of protection, preventing something from being seen by people, poisoning us or more than one of these things...maybe none of the above. we just won't know until somebody can fly up to a freshly layed trail on a shady day and take a sample.

reply to post by new_here

Well they are wrong for that and should not do it. But if we get rid of it because they are doing it, shouldn't we have to get rid of the UFO forum and the Paranormal forum and many others because they aren't proven phenomena either, and are open to that same kind of abuse?

The problem is that we don't call it the 'UFO and Space Exploration Forum' or the 'Parapsychology and Religion Forum!' The two topics need to be separated.

reply to post by DJW001

Twice in the space of less than 24 hours I have seen posters use the existence of the Chemtrail Forum as proof that chemtrails exist.

That's just silly talk.

However I see people who think that because there is no proof of aliens, that must prove that aliens exist.

See what I did there?

People will use whatever justifications they themselves deem appropriate in order to fit their ideology. Even ones the rest of us have come to understand are as the above states, silly.

The topic in itself is worth discussing even if most people don't believe in their existence. It's not a less valid topic than say, Reptilians or the Illuminati Music Industry Control conspiracy.

It's just relatively newer.

My two cents only of course.

~Tenth

reply to post by tothetenthpower

It's not a less valid topic than say, Reptilians or the Illuminati Music Industry Control conspiracy.

Do we have forums exclusively devoted to Reptilians or the Illuminati Music Industry? No, those get posted in The Gray Area or General Conspiracies. My point is that a separate Forum for chemtrails give them too much weight, and combining them with geo-engineering discourages serious discussions of a very real technological trend.

reply to post by DJW001


Shilltastic thread!!!

Let's shut the whole site down while we're at it. I'm sure that would please most who infiltrate that poor section of ATS.

reply to post by Goldcurrent

Shilltastic thread!!!

Please explain the meaning of this phrase.

Let's shut the whole site down while we're at it. I'm sure that would please most who infiltrate that poor section of ATS.

Why are you suggesting that the whole site be shut down? Or is that intended as sarcasm? I am certainly not suggesting that the site be shut down, I am suggesting that the forums be allotted in a way that serves the best interests of its users. Why should people who take environmentalism seriously need to wear the albatross of chemtrails around their necks?

reply to post by DJW001

Do we have forums exclusively devoted to Reptilians or the Illuminati Music Industry?

No but we delegate each to specific forums in most cases.

Note that the forum is is listed as:

Geo-Engineering and Chemtrails

The issue is that the chemtrail topic has dominated the forum. Members haven't been creating other content that is relevant to the forum.

Be the change you'd like to see?!

~Tenth

reply to post by tothetenthpower


Doesn't that kind of support the OP's point? He's not saying that we ban discussion of chemtrails just that they be moved to a forum that is more speculative in nature. Much like Reptilian threads are moved to Skunk Works.

reply to post by tothetenthpower

The issue is that the chemtrail topic has dominated the forum. Members haven't been creating other content that is relevant to the forum.

Be the change you'd like to see?!

I've tried! So have others, but it always winds up the same: people with a technical background (AKA 'debunkers,' ' shills,' etc.) will agree that geo-engineering is dangerous, expensive and should not be done. Conspicuously absent from these threads are any sign of participation from the chemtrail crowd. If we must have a Chemtrail Forum, please drop the Geo-Engineering from the title. Those threads can go in Fragile Earth.

Geoengineering is an umbrella term that the use of "Chemtrails" (as they're known) is either an active part or is being considered as a future active part of.

I did a thread not too long ago which covered part of that discussion by a working group of the International Panel on Climate Change (The United Nations Climate Change group).

Geoengineering, The IPCC and our Global Future

Now "Chemtrailing" or the deployment of agents into the atmosphere by aircraft to induce changes...is just one part of a broad conference I cover in that thread, but it's explained and outlined very clearly for how to disperse, what to disperse and what the expected impact would be.

The two topics do overlap, or, as noted, may overlap by discussions happening today among those who supply the data which policy comes to be formed by.

Just my two carrots into the blender.

reply to post by Xcalibur254

Doesn't that kind of support the OP's point? He's not saying that we ban discussion of chemtrails just that they be moved to a forum that is more speculative in nature. Much like Reptilian threads are moved to Skunk Works.

Nail & Head

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

Geoeingineering is an umbrella term that the use of "Chemtrails" (as they're known) is either an active part or is being considered as a future active part of.

Wrong! Geo-engineering is a buzz word used by chemtrail 'theorists' to explain away what they believe they see. Sometimes they claim that it is poison, AIDS virus, barium and so forth. There is no consistent hypothesis as to what chemtrails are or what they are for, other than a stubborn insistence that they are created deliberately for nefarious purposes.

reply to post by DJW001


Right ok so there are a few threads.

Look, there's nothing staff can do about Chemtrails being popular. Even if the science behind it is dubious at best.

We have a specific forum because at the time of it's creation those threads were dominating the board and so was information regarding geo-engineering in general.

Moving the topic to a more speculative forum doesn't solve the problem you speak of. It won't cause those members to participate in other threads more than they do already.

Then it will clutter another entire forum, along with everything even being considered Geo Engineering be thrown in Fragile Earth, which is not the intended purpose of that forum.

~Tenth

reply to post by DJW001


I'm not debating the point, just as I didn't write that thread to take any particular side about the overall issue it's all being based upon solving. Not there, anyway. It is what it is. "IPCC Expert Meeting on Geoengineering" was the Official name chosen for the conference in Lima, Peru in 2011. They carefully define what they mean by that, too.

Geoengineering refers to a broad set of methods and technologies that aim to deliberately alter the climate system in order to alleviate the impacts of climate change. Most, but not all, methods seek to either (a) reduce the amount of absorbed solar energy in the climate system (Solar Radiation Management) or (b) increase net carbon sinks from the atmosphere at a scale sufficiently large to alter climate (Carbon Dioxide Removal). Scale and intent are of central importance.

We can all debate how we feel about the ways these terms are officially defined ...but that is the definition by the internationally recognized panel of experts on this topic....and that report is, across many pages, specifically discussing what we refer to as Chemtrailing.

Again.. Not much to debate because I'm not supporting or condemning what is talked about there, by pointing it out here. I'm simply pointing out how the UN and International Community view it.

reply to post by tothetenthpower

Then it will clutter another entire forum, along with everything even being considered Geo Engineering be thrown in Fragile Earth, which is not the intended purpose of that forum.

But since threads about actual geo-engineering are so rare, they should not overwhelm Fragile Earth, which I believe is dedicated to Ecology. Geo-engineering is an ecological problem, not a conspiracy (at least not yet). By linking chemtrails and geo-engineering in the title of a forum, it gives chemtrail theorists a 'buy.' They can just assume that chemtrails have been proven to be geo-engineering, when in fact, they are no such thing!

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

that report is, across many pages, specifically discussing what we refer to as Chemtrailing.

Some people have recently been equating 'chemtrails' with solar radiation mitigation. Others believe they are an attempt to hide the planet Nibiru from the public. Which is it? See my point?

reply to post by DJW001


The respectable chemtrail people I've known believe that the chemtrails were geo-engineering attempts, and that they were separate from ordinary contrails. Its part of the general weather modification conspiracy theory scene, where people believe the extreme weather events we've seen are either a result of geo-engineering, or symptoms of an underlying issues (like climate change way more extreme than predicted) which the government is trying to treat and hide. Honestly its one of my favorite scenes, just behind tech conspiracies and UFOs.

reply to post by tothetenthpower


Then why not just make the forum chemtrail-centric and much like Gray Area or Skunk Works mention that the forum is highly speculative in the description? Legit geo-engineering threads are few and far enough between that they wouldn't clutter up other forums and depending on the topic I could see them fitting in a number of different forums.