‘Aid in Dying’ Movement Takes Hold in Some States

reply to post by ausername

Right or wrong is a matter of perspective.

Which is exactly why it's none of my business.

It's for the people involved to decide the best course of action. Our system of law should support the freedom to do so.

I think we mostly agree .

~Tenth

tothetenthpower
Which is exactly why it's none of my business.

There ya' go!!

For someone to dictate to a dying person that they are doing something 'evil' or 'bad' because they terminally ill want to end their pain ... that's insane and it's 'busy body' of people to insert themselves into that situation.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Doesn't that condemn the sinner to Hell for taking their own life according to the Holy Roman Catholic church you staunchly defend?
But then again, the death penalty also goes against the teachings of that institution.

reply to post by ausername


Thank you for that ausername

Right or wrong is a matter of perspective.

True enough. You appear to have an issue with suicide - and I'm not going to go there, or bother trying to drag any of that thought process out of you - I'm pretty sure I understand where you're coming from

Suicide seems to be harder to fathom or accept than even murder

I've had a friend that was mentally ill. He took his own life. His illness tormented him to the point where he could see only one way out. It was a tragedy of timing, among other things. If he had received the care he needed he would have got through it all, but he couldn't know that from where he was when he took his own life

Agony was all he knew

My dad was who I was talking about in my first post in this thread. He had cancer - I won't discuss what all he had to endure - but it went on for several years

He was begging the nurses and his doctor to kill him - and then he was begging me

This is about as personal a post as I've ever written here at ATS

I guess, ausername, that you and I probably have very different views on all this - and that's OK

But, my opinion is that even if there is some kind of judgement (even if) on the other side, no rational, loving judge would punish someone for trying to escape something they couldn't bear

Meanwhile, here on planet earth, we help those that we can help in any way we can

We don't turn our backs on the mentally ill, and we don't force people to live in torment just so we can say we didn't help them die

reply to post by the owlbear

But then again, the death penalty also goes against the teachings of that institution.

If you look hard enough, everything is a sin that gets you tossed into hell according to that particular piece of literature.

I would hope our academics, scientists and public representatives would pay mind to the knowledge of today, as opposed to 3000 years ago, to solve contemporary problems.

~Tenth

the owlbear
Doesn't that condemn the sinner to Hell for taking their own life according to the Holy Roman Catholic church you staunchly defend?

1 - Yes it's against the teaching of the Catholic church.
2 - So what?
3 - Where do I 'staunchly defend' the Catholic church? I say they have a right to believe what they want, just as anyone else does. If you are trying to imply that I'm some kind of hardcore conservative Catholic .. you are dead wrong.

reply to post by the owlbear

Doesn't that condemn the sinner to Hell for taking their own life according to the Holy Roman Catholic church you staunchly defend?

I've also seen her take the church to task for quite a few things

:-)

if you want to call her a hypocrite - you should probably just use those words and be honest about it

Meanwhile - there's not much in her OP to disagree with as far as I'm concerned

tothetenthpower
reply to post by the owlbear

 

But then again, the death penalty also goes against the teachings of that institution.

If you look hard enough, everything is a sin that gets you tossed into hell according to that particular piece of literature.

I would hope our academics, scientists and public representatives would pay mind to the knowledge of today, as opposed to 3000 years ago, to solve contemporary problems.

~Tenth

Agreed.
The fervency with which the OP comes to the defense of an institution that is under constant scrutiny and attack (for good reason), switches gears on one issue that totally contradicts its message...why this and say not the death penalty or abortion (which is deemed murder)? I'm curious and not attacking...

the owlbear
The fervency with which the OP comes to the defense of an institution

Oh stop it.
1 - I am not the subject of this thread.
2 - Where exactly do I 'fervently come to the defense' of the Catholic church? No where. I say they have a right to believe whatever they want. That's not 'fervent defense' of the Catholic church. That's just the basic way America is supposed to be run.

GET ON TOPIC .... 'Aid in Dying' movement making inroads in states.

tothetenthpower
I would hope our academics, scientists and public representatives would pay mind to the knowledge of today, as opposed to 3000 years ago, to solve contemporary problems.

Yes please! Many of the dying have been forced to go through hell. And so have their families. And doctors have been frustrated at having to keep people alive who are in massive pain and suffering, people who just want to move on. All because of an archaic notion that people have to suffer up to the very end and die in a cruel 'natural' way. It's barbaric. We help our pets, but we can't help each other? It's pretty sick. And it's all based on the old Abrahamic religion notion of 'early out = evil'.

reply to post by FlyersFan


All of this may very well be so...

It's just my concern, from my perspective, knowing in how people react to actions...

I think about the ramifications. Such as centers that practicing such methods and the personnel coming under attack by extremist groups...

I think about the 18 year old who is so tired of waiting for a match, and convinces family and medical professionals to assist him in ending his life, and then three days after a funeral, a match is found, and the family learns of it... Or the elderly man, whose debilitating disease makes a miraculous break through...

I think of those of very devout faith, who truly believe hellfire awaits for those who cut their contract short by their own hand, and the sort... the sort of stuff that tears family apart. Trust me I know. When my grandmother took my grandfather off of life support, his very devout Catholic sister made the funeral and all of her grieving period very unbearable. It was a horror to witness, and emotionally, the devastation of not my grandfather's passing, but of the hateful and derogatory and abusive things said to my grandmother for taking him off life support... well even today decades later, I'm scarred. I support my grandmother's choice, and would have made the same choice in her position. I just WISH better protocols such as family meetings with licensed grievance counselors who can prepare the reactions and ramifications of making that choice for somebody else or supporting somebody who wishes to die, had been in place and available to even poor people.

I just can see, in a broader sense, some of the fallout for supporting this choice no holds, unchecked, and unexamined. That's all I'm saying. I'm just trying to interject some reasoned points as to why this needs to be approached and handled carefully. We cannot in today's insane world, society, and ethics go out and say, "Hey, it's okay to kill yourself now. We'll even help you end it if your pain and suffering is unbearable". IMO anyways.

CdT

double post.

My apologies.

CdT

FlyersFan
reply to post by soficrow

 

No. In the movie there were 'aid in dying' centers that anyone could go to at any time. They went in on their own. Signed up. Answered some questions. Went to a private room and were aided in death. It was calm. It was peaceful. It was pleasant. No pain or panic. It made sense.

Ok, then there's Logan's Run ...



Ready or not,

You're 31!

RENEW!!

the owlbear
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

Doesn't that condemn the sinner to Hell for taking their own life according to the Holy Roman Catholic church you staunchly defend?
But then again, the death penalty also goes against the teachings of that institution.

The message is what you should discuss not the messenger. You are using ad hominem attacks and that is a failure in logic since it does not matter who say the message to discuss the message.

If I had to choose it would be death by chocolate and baconText


LOL

D

reply to post by FlyersFan

It was calm. It was peaceful. It was pleasant. No pain or panic. It made sense.

Except for the prologue - where people are pushed, prodded and drugged into burning themselves out working for a retirement future that is NOT intended to materialize.



FYI - I do NOT require the State's intervention to provide me with a calm, peaceful, pleasant, painless, panic-less or sensible demise. Nor do I want it.

reply to post by FlyersFan


I'm all for 'aid in dying' as long as the process is transparent and stringent. In my opinion, the State should reflect compassion and use judgement in cases where somebody's quality of life is minimal. There are also secondary, indirect effects on the quality of life of their friends and family to be considered.

As Blupblup pointed out, we also have to be careful to protect the vulnerable from 'premature' death at the hands of greedy, heartless relatives. It could only ever work after a due process and never, ever be acceptable as a mercy killing by pillow or induced overdose.

Something we often forget about is the people who are expected to carry out these merciful killings; they have their own morality/conscience and would need to know that what they are doing is in the best interests of the patient.