How Advanced Alien Civilizations Would Conquer the Galaxy - Fermi paradox -

JayinAR

eriktheawful

JayinAR
reply to post by eriktheawful

 

I think its an issue of cost vs benefit actually, and it actually makes perfect sense that any galaxy-faring species wold most likely be peaceful.
Slaves? No need, they have robots.

Take the planet for its resources? Why, when there is a bazillion others just like it?

Etc

When you are at war.....cost is nothing actually. Think about all that was built by the US during WW2.

You are right: why take that planet when there are others?

Well: how well does FTL work? Is it instataneous? Does it take a day to go a single light year? A week? Months?

How far does an alien territory extend? a few parsecs? (a parsec is the distance from here to Alpha Centauri), 50 light years? 100? 1,000?

What if their area is further out towards the outer rim of the galaxy? Less stars, less planets, etc. They need more. Can they cross other territories? Is it allowed?

Or is our entire galaxy under some One Galaxy Order? What if when we finally do go out there, we find out: join, or go home and don't leave. ?

The universe is big enough to have everything we can think of in it......and more than likely it has a LOT more that we can't even think of.

Like I said: just because you become more advanced with technology, does not mean you become more peaceful.

Look at us.....we are so intelligent. We really are. And yet, we are willing to kill for our beliefs, life style, form of government, and yes, resources. Even though we actually KNOW that things would be a LOT better if we just all got along, shared our resources, and tried to help everyone.

We know this as a fact. And yet we still have nuclear weapons pointed at each other. We still kill in the name of some god. We kill people to make them see that our way of government is better (whatever that may be). We let people starve. We still think: He who has the most toys (and money): WINS!

Even though we KNOW that it would be better if we all just got along and tolerated each other.

We already have the technology to reach the closest star within 100 years......and yet, we kill each other. We have groups that continue to hate.

I'm not really going to hold my breath on the idea that just because you develop faster than light travel, means that you must be peaceful.

I hope you're right though. Because any alien race that does have that power.....but is not peaceful?

We'll be those ants in a ant hill.

I think the problem humanity faces is group-think.
In actuality we DONT fight over Gods. We fight over resources. It is the Governments who spin that need for resources into more ridiculous reasons for going to war. War has NEVER been fought over religion; it has always been about, "what they got that we want?"

And while you're right that we know cooperation is ideal, very few people have the courage to stand against their Government and say no. As a whole, we aren't very intelligent at all.

So following from there, a galaxy-faring species shouldn't have any motive for pillaging our resources. They, in my view, would either be peaceful, or utterly indifferent. But either way they couldn't care less about our gold.

IMO of course.

ETA: my layman's understanding of FTL travel makes me think it should either be instantaneous, or at least ridiculously fast. On the order of 10,000 times the speed of light. I think the answer is wormhole travel.

Time wouldn't be a factor for such a species.

And if they are somehow accelerating to faster than light speeds, I think you'll find they don't even have a world they call home. They would essentially be time travelers.

edit on 10-2-2014 by JayinAR because: (no reason given)

well i agree with you they would have no need of resources because everything they need is in abundance on the way here. However just because your intelligent doesnt mean you cant be hostile either.

dragonridr

JayinAR

eriktheawful

JayinAR
reply to post by eriktheawful

 

I think its an issue of cost vs benefit actually, and it actually makes perfect sense that any galaxy-faring species wold most likely be peaceful.
Slaves? No need, they have robots.

Take the planet for its resources? Why, when there is a bazillion others just like it?

Etc

When you are at war.....cost is nothing actually. Think about all that was built by the US during WW2.

You are right: why take that planet when there are others?

Well: how well does FTL work? Is it instataneous? Does it take a day to go a single light year? A week? Months?

How far does an alien territory extend? a few parsecs? (a parsec is the distance from here to Alpha Centauri), 50 light years? 100? 1,000?

What if their area is further out towards the outer rim of the galaxy? Less stars, less planets, etc. They need more. Can they cross other territories? Is it allowed?

Or is our entire galaxy under some One Galaxy Order? What if when we finally do go out there, we find out: join, or go home and don't leave. ?

The universe is big enough to have everything we can think of in it......and more than likely it has a LOT more that we can't even think of.

Like I said: just because you become more advanced with technology, does not mean you become more peaceful.

Look at us.....we are so intelligent. We really are. And yet, we are willing to kill for our beliefs, life style, form of government, and yes, resources. Even though we actually KNOW that things would be a LOT better if we just all got along, shared our resources, and tried to help everyone.

We know this as a fact. And yet we still have nuclear weapons pointed at each other. We still kill in the name of some god. We kill people to make them see that our way of government is better (whatever that may be). We let people starve. We still think: He who has the most toys (and money): WINS!

Even though we KNOW that it would be better if we all just got along and tolerated each other.

We already have the technology to reach the closest star within 100 years......and yet, we kill each other. We have groups that continue to hate.

I'm not really going to hold my breath on the idea that just because you develop faster than light travel, means that you must be peaceful.

I hope you're right though. Because any alien race that does have that power.....but is not peaceful?

We'll be those ants in a ant hill.

I think the problem humanity faces is group-think.
In actuality we DONT fight over Gods. We fight over resources. It is the Governments who spin that need for resources into more ridiculous reasons for going to war. War has NEVER been fought over religion; it has always been about, "what they got that we want?"

And while you're right that we know cooperation is ideal, very few people have the courage to stand against their Government and say no. As a whole, we aren't very intelligent at all.

So following from there, a galaxy-faring species shouldn't have any motive for pillaging our resources. They, in my view, would either be peaceful, or utterly indifferent. But either way they couldn't care less about our gold.

IMO of course.

ETA: my layman's understanding of FTL travel makes me think it should either be instantaneous, or at least ridiculously fast. On the order of 10,000 times the speed of light. I think the answer is wormhole travel.

Time wouldn't be a factor for such a species.

And if they are somehow accelerating to faster than light speeds, I think you'll find they don't even have a world they call home. They would essentially be time travelers.

edit on 10-2-2014 by JayinAR because: (no reason given)

well i agree with you they would have no need of resources because everything they need is in abundance on the way here. However just because your intelligent doesnt mean you cant be hostile either.

Of course there is always the possibility a species acts like an ass-hat just to be an ass-hat, but I doubt it.

And I question the actual intelligence of anything that goes around bullying people just cuz.

Any interstellar traveling being's arriving in our system, so long as they arrive at the plain of the system, would have to travel through the asteroid belt, chock full of goodies such as gold, nickle, water ice, etc., I doubt they would travel any further, unless they were really lazy and wanted ready mined and refined metals, but having watched the amount of news channels with the constant war being shown, they would have enough sense to stay in the asteroid belt.

JayinAR

dragonridr

JayinAR

eriktheawful

JayinAR
reply to post by eriktheawful

 

I think its an issue of cost vs benefit actually, and it actually makes perfect sense that any galaxy-faring species wold most likely be peaceful.
Slaves? No need, they have robots.

Take the planet for its resources? Why, when there is a bazillion others just like it?

Etc

When you are at war.....cost is nothing actually. Think about all that was built by the US during WW2.

You are right: why take that planet when there are others?

Well: how well does FTL work? Is it instataneous? Does it take a day to go a single light year? A week? Months?

How far does an alien territory extend? a few parsecs? (a parsec is the distance from here to Alpha Centauri), 50 light years? 100? 1,000?

What if their area is further out towards the outer rim of the galaxy? Less stars, less planets, etc. They need more. Can they cross other territories? Is it allowed?

Or is our entire galaxy under some One Galaxy Order? What if when we finally do go out there, we find out: join, or go home and don't leave. ?

The universe is big enough to have everything we can think of in it......and more than likely it has a LOT more that we can't even think of.

Like I said: just because you become more advanced with technology, does not mean you become more peaceful.

Look at us.....we are so intelligent. We really are. And yet, we are willing to kill for our beliefs, life style, form of government, and yes, resources. Even though we actually KNOW that things would be a LOT better if we just all got along, shared our resources, and tried to help everyone.

We know this as a fact. And yet we still have nuclear weapons pointed at each other. We still kill in the name of some god. We kill people to make them see that our way of government is better (whatever that may be). We let people starve. We still think: He who has the most toys (and money): WINS!

Even though we KNOW that it would be better if we all just got along and tolerated each other.

We already have the technology to reach the closest star within 100 years......and yet, we kill each other. We have groups that continue to hate.

I'm not really going to hold my breath on the idea that just because you develop faster than light travel, means that you must be peaceful.

I hope you're right though. Because any alien race that does have that power.....but is not peaceful?

We'll be those ants in a ant hill.

I think the problem humanity faces is group-think.
In actuality we DONT fight over Gods. We fight over resources. It is the Governments who spin that need for resources into more ridiculous reasons for going to war. War has NEVER been fought over religion; it has always been about, "what they got that we want?"

And while you're right that we know cooperation is ideal, very few people have the courage to stand against their Government and say no. As a whole, we aren't very intelligent at all.

So following from there, a galaxy-faring species shouldn't have any motive for pillaging our resources. They, in my view, would either be peaceful, or utterly indifferent. But either way they couldn't care less about our gold.

IMO of course.

ETA: my layman's understanding of FTL travel makes me think it should either be instantaneous, or at least ridiculously fast. On the order of 10,000 times the speed of light. I think the answer is wormhole travel.

Time wouldn't be a factor for such a species.

And if they are somehow accelerating to faster than light speeds, I think you'll find they don't even have a world they call home. They would essentially be time travelers.

edit on 10-2-2014 by JayinAR because: (no reason given)

well i agree with you they would have no need of resources because everything they need is in abundance on the way here. However just because your intelligent doesnt mean you cant be hostile either.

Of course there is always the possibility a species acts like an ass-hat just to be an ass-hat, but I doubt it.

And I question the actual intelligence of anything that goes around bullying people just cuz.

Well they could have evolved to be hostile like beta for example you cant even put two of them in the same fish bowl without trying to kill each other its their nature.If a species was truly a predator but yet intelligent they would seem very hostile to us and wouldnt play well with others. Then there is the ones that are just so far advanced they consider other species inconsequential there just as dangerous. There could be so many reasons a race might be hostile they might watch are television think its real and we are regularly torturing and killing aliens. They could decide as a species mankind is a threat either because of what our abilities will be or are nature and decide its better to just end it. Thats why for one i hope we get a couple of hundred years before first contact. We will have advanced enough to at least be able to defend ourselves should the need arise. Right now if a species can travel the distances between the stars and they decide they dont like us were done. Not to mention i think we need some time to grow up we are still very divided as a species. We worry about race and religion we look for differences instead of similarities. This is why i dont tink we could have peaceful contact right now i think it would go bad for the aliens.

I think the problem with a lot of the "against" arguments for a Dyson sphere is that people are imagining incomprehensible technology on a reference scale comparable to our own engineering, e.g., harvesting every molecule in a solar system, and constructing a huge steel monstrosity shell around a sun. Obviously, this seems very far-fetched, but I don't think it's because of the encapsulating a star part. A good analogy would be it's like trying to wrap your head around the size of a red giant star.

I was actually thinking about a Dyson sphere more along these lines: We know that hydrogen is the most abundant molecule in the universe. It has been proven (although we are currently unable to create in a lab due to our own technological constraints) that under EXTREME pressures hydrogen becomes a liquid metal superconductor. The liquid metal form of compressed hydrogen is believed to be the source of Jupiter's electrical storms. Knowing this, it may be a little easier to comprehend taking the most abundant element in the universe and forming it into an extremely thin lattice around a (dwarf?) star. If it could be done, I'm sure the forces of the vacuum of space and the stars gravity pushing and pulling would be sufficient enough to keep the hydrogen lattice in a metallic state. And the liquid, bubble-like characteristics would give it enough elasticity to not burst, and may even be useful in the initial linking of the skeleton structure. I would even think the tech used to harvest the solar systems would somehow have to recycle itself back into the lattice.

Now don't ask me how this all happens, or to "fill in the gaps". Obviously, I'm not trying to say "this is how a Dyson sphere is, or could, be built". I'm just letting my imagination run a bit wild, since a Dyson sphere is a hypothetical brainchild of the imagination to begin with, which seems silly to me to try and dispute given our limited knowledge of the subject..

I'll even go as far as to say: If they can be built somehow, a Dyson sphere or anything remotely representing one cannot be built by every capable civilization due to location and surrounding resources. Sort of like nature's famously cruel "luck of the draw" hurdle.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Right-O, did not quite get your initial meaning.
I was wondering, though...

The Vagabond
When one planet is no longer enough for a civilization, perhaps instead of growing their territory they shrink themselves into a computer simulation. If you could compute consciousness and reality perfectly, there is no real requirement that you go through the motions. We might find out that 99% of the life of the average civilization plays out in a shoebox drifting through empty space long after their star and their biology are gone.

Seeing as how space is extremely huge and boring, I'm thinking that as human beings advance they are much more likely to turn inward and create exciting new worlds of adventure in their heads, rather than spend the energy and resources to manipulate physical reality. If living in a fantastic, heavenly virtual reality as a disembodied head in a box is ultimately satisfying, then it's unlikely that we're going to still feel the need after a while for physical travel or contact with any real aliens out there. So we'll turn out our lights and go into an eternal dream. Good-night universe!

dragonridr
However just because your intelligent doesn't mean you can't be hostile either.

I always thought that the worst kind of alien to meet would be those who truly believed that life as lived by organic creatures such as ourselves is a horrible kind of torture (they'd have a point), and that the kindest thing they could do for us is to kill us and allow our energy or whatever to mix back into the universal matrix from whence it came. In their heart of hearts, they would have a moral obligation and feel like they were doing us the greatest favor ever by killing us. We would fight them and plead for our lives, and they would be completely baffled by it, or feel sorry for us because we just didn't understand how awesome it would be for us if we could be free from the pain of physical existence.

We would have a tough time against those guys.

reply to post by Blue Shift

Now that's just creepy.
In a very cool way.

reply to post by thepainweaver


Space is absence of matter, not absence of energy.

If you release liquid hydrogen from a spacecraft into inter-planetary space, what would happen? Will it stay liquid and stay where you released it, or something else would happen?

In reality, the hydrogen atoms will absorb energy from sunlight and radiation, and hydrogen will become gaseous and disappear.

reply to post by Blue Shift


Yes, it is possible that an alien race tries to kill all earth humans and snatch their resources.

However each human (alien included) is bound to the universal law of karma or 'cause and effect'. So usually such effort ends in disaster for the attacking race.

GargIndia
reply to post by Blue Shift

 

Yes, it is possible that an alien race tries to kill all earth humans and snatch their resources.

However each human (alien included) is bound to the universal law of karma or 'cause and effect'. So usually such effort ends in disaster for the attacking race.

I found your use of "usually" absolutely hilarious.
A universal law that usually applies...to waring intergalactic species the likes of which have never been observed.
Here, have a medal. No. Have two.

reply to post by SLAYER69


If they were so far advanced I would like to think they would be beyond the thought of "conquering" other planets or species.

If they were so advanced in the way technology but more importantly meta-physically or consciousness, what need would they have for conquering other species?

Such an advanced race could take a baron Satellite(Moon) or planet or most likely terra-form it with ease. It reminds me of something I once read -

"Nature does it better when you know how to guide it to suit your means"



Have you read or come across the book "The Roswell Message"?

More importantly towards the end of the book, the psychic connections to Roswell and the Asastan race?

reply to post by Havick007


Hey thanks

I appreciate the input.

This might be of interest.

So if they use the entire planets to build the structure, does they convert all the atoms from different elements into one material or they build the structure very heterogeneously with patches of whatever was the planets? what is the energetic cost of transforming matter, is it less than what they get from the star?

Solar winds have to put some stress to the structure too, radiation breaks molecular bonds, how long would this structure have to last to be profitable?

This is the reason why solar panels here in earth are not so good, they don't last long, are inefficient and the kind of molecules that absorb radiation and release electricity is not abundant and costly.

Just another though i had

reply to post by SLAYER69


No probs, not that it was very productive so to speak..lol


That is what I meant in my first reply. I wasn't thinking or speaking in terms of military.

Energy is the something the "Universe" holds in abundance

reply to post by SLAYER69


Another concept I want to put out there in regard to energy and I'm sorry if this is slightly off-topic.


Consider the open space in front of you right now. There is nothing there right?

Now wave your arm back and fourth in front of your line of sight and consider what kind of tangible energy it requires to change that space/air into the matter of your arm waving back and fourth.

I'm not sure of that will make much sense.

There is energy everywhere, even when it looks like nothing is there.

reply to post by Blue Shift


But without physical bodies to live these lives we live over and over and over......


How would we learn?


There is a reason that physical life exists no matter what part of the "Universe" a body lives. If energy/consciousness could exist on it's own then there would be no need for physical life...


That also helps to explain why intelligent beings are so far scattered from each other throughout the universe. It takes along to time move past military or dominating ambitions over other species or races.

In the past 1000 years, how many Earth races have been conquered by other so-called "races" of the planet. It's actually quite disgusting.

Ismail

GargIndia
reply to post by Blue Shift

 

Yes, it is possible that an alien race tries to kill all earth humans and snatch their resources.

However each human (alien included) is bound to the universal law of karma or 'cause and effect'. So usually such effort ends in disaster for the attacking race.

I found your use of "usually" absolutely hilarious.
A universal law that usually applies...to waring intergalactic species the likes of which have never been observed.
Here, have a medal. No. Have two.

Lol'd

Thread update...


The Search for Extraterrestrial Archeology --Probing Kepler Mission Data

Fifty years ago the physicists Freeman Dyson speculated that vast structures could ring or completely enclose their parent star. These Dyson Spheres, the work of a Kardashev Type II civilization — would be capable of drawing on the entire energy output of its star. Geoff Marcy, Professor of Astronomy at the University of California, Berkeley, who is famous for discovering more extrasolar planets than anyone else, 70 out of the first 100 to be discovered, received a grant last year from the UK’s Templeton Foundation to search for Dyson spheres.

Marcy studies thousands of Kepler systems for telltale evidence of such structures by examining changes in light levels around the parent star as well as possible laser traffic among extraterrestrial civilizations. "Fermi Bubbles," which might appear as a void in visible light in spiral galaxies, is the term used by Richard Carrigan, a scientist emeritus at Fermilab, in his work on the search for cosmic-scale artifacts like Dyson spheres or Kardashev civilizations using Infrared Astronomical Satellite (IRAS) data . A Fermi bubble would grow as the civilization creating it colonized space, according to Carrigan.
As Carl Sagan observed, the time to colonize an individual system is small compared to the travel time between stars. A civilization, believes Carrigan, could engulf its galaxy on a time scale comparable to the rotation period of the galaxy, or every 225–250 million years, and perhaps shorter.

Searching for signatures of cosmic-scale archaeological artifacts such as Dyson spheres or Kardashev civilizations is an interesting alternative