Accepting an afterlife as fact without belief in "God"

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posted on Feb, 7 2014 @ 03:54 PM
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reply to post by EmpathicBandit
 



Now, if you have this kind of system in place, one would assume that it would require some sort of oversight, whether "physical" (by a being/s) or "energetic" (by the force, ka, chi, prana, etc) either way, you must, at some point, concede that there is a greater force at work that you can neither identify nor deny. Hence you have the IDEA of "God" which, yes, doesnt require the WORD "God" but it certainly implies the sort of force behind the nature of things, no?

YES! That is precisely my question!!
I'm very pleased that you joined in, thanks....

At the end of the day, whatever is in control of the system that we inhabit is far beyond the comprehension of our limited perception.
I think it would be rather naive to believe in the system without at least seriously considering some kind of force that controls it - whatever that force may be.


And...
that is precisely what I'm (we're) doing, right now, right here.

It is FAR beyond our comprehension. I think it's counterproductive to have all the different 'illustrations' of what "God" is.




posted on Feb, 7 2014 @ 04:05 PM
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reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
 



If a student has the choice of whether to be punished or not they will choose not to be punished every time.

Mmm. Not in my experience.


No one likes punishment so no one would choose to get it in my opinion.


No one likes to be humiliated in front of others, or to be humiliated at all. But, I tell you with first-hand, real-life experience, that kids who are dancing in the fire are very capable of moral 'judgments' and what 'they think they deserve.'


If I had the choice of whether to be sent to Earth again I would not choose it, yet I am still here.


Maybe because, unremembered by you, you (your oversoul) knew you (your present self) needed to cowboy up and live it anyway?
Maybe?



posted on Feb, 7 2014 @ 04:27 PM
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YES! That is precisely my question!!
I'm very pleased that you joined in, thanks....


My pleasure. I've spent a great deal of time on this road.



... I think it's counterproductive to have all the different 'illustrations' of what "God" is.


yes, certainly it is; we've had nothing but trouble because of the separation ever since.

the trouble comes, indeed, through definition. When one speaks of "god/s" to what does one refer? God the creator of the race of man? God who presides over the crops and fields etc, or God the creator of the universe? Are they all ONE entity/force/being? does one consider god to be one with "the creation" (the universe and all matter/energy within) or is "he" merely a part of the creation, as we all are, who must follow the laws of the universe the same as any being (though albeit with a much greater understanding, awareness, and control over said laws) This is where many people disagree and find confusion where there need be none.

Simply to state a belief in a higher power should be enough to unify us under a common belief, whatever the name of it may be.
Alas, it is not; and here we are. I try to hold ideas in mind, without clinging onto beliefs - it makes things much simpler.



AliceBleachWhite
As I commented on another thread discussing "Afterlife", I don't see it.

If people are going to some spooky spirit existence, just to come back and live these kinds of lives, it's pretty disgusting and irrational.


is it disgusting and irrational to wish to gain every ounce of experience possible out of life? consider, yes it would NOT be the top choice on most peoples lists, however, what if its somewhat like a scavenger hunt? On the other side, you are given a list of things that must be attained or achieved by the end of your lifetime(s) (could be a long list
) then you get to pick a body, pick a life, that you feel will help you achieve these experiences and then move onto... the next state of being, whatever that may be.

0.02



posted on Feb, 7 2014 @ 04:29 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 




Mmm. Not in my experience.


So kids you have dealt with willingly and voluntarily chose to go to detention even if they didn't have to? Genuine question, I don't think you're lying.

If that's the case then I think it is most likely that those kind of children make up the vast vast minority.



No one likes to be humiliated in front of others, or to be humiliated at all. But, I tell you with first-hand, real-life experience, that kids who are dancing in the fire are very capable of moral 'judgments' and what 'they think they deserve.'


I agree and believe you, but this doesn't mean that they would choose for those things to be done to them. A murderer would probably agree in his mind that he deserves jail time but he's still going to get a lawyer and fight against it.



Maybe because, unremembered by you, you (your oversoul) knew you (your present self) needed to cowboy up and live it anyway?
Maybe?


This is the point I was making about karma being the committee, if I choose not to get punishment (majority of people in my opinion) and the committee can override my choice anyways, what's the point in giving me a choice in the first place? Seems a bit counterproductive and actually leans me more toward our only "choice" being how we act in this life.

This life is the "conference" in-between past lives and future lives that you speak of. The now (which is between the past and future) is the conference and our actions are being judged by the committee (karma) every second of our lives and it is weighing where we should go next based on our actions in this life. Everytime we perform a misdeed knowingly, it is made known to us through our conscience, and the conscience judges whether we deserve the same in return.

I hope that makes sense.
edit on 2/7/2014 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 7 2014 @ 05:28 PM
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When you speak of an ''afterlife'' without God, then does it mean the whole system of souls, reincarnation, etc is a purely natural phenomena? A theist understands a Creator created the life/afterlife system in which a persons consciousness (or soul) gets transferred somewhere else after death. Are you claiming this system exists naturally?



posted on Feb, 7 2014 @ 05:53 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


I was going to elaborate on something I said in another thread, but it actually seems a bit more relevant in this thread.


3NL1GHT3N3D1
I personally believe in reincarnation, everything works in cycles, even life/death. After we die we will forever be reincarnated over and over again back into this universe. In fact, we're already in the "afterlife" because we have all been reincarnated. It's a process that cannot be avoided in my opinion.


We keep coming back here because this is the balancing point, the equilibrium of duality. This might sound odd given the seemingly endless examples of duality around you, but there is an exception. A duality consists of 2 polar opposites with a range of 'gray' in between, but in this reality the corporeal and non-corporeal do not function this way. Instead they exist primarily in balance and branch out from the center. The ground under your feet is 99.9% empty space according to quantum physics, it's not really there, but it seems pretty solid. Your body is your soul and the ground you walk on is your imagination. You can escape the rules at times, some call it death but you practice every night. (well, most do...) Eventually you'll end up back at the center though, balance is inevitable. Reincarnation, in my opinion, is an attempt to bring the other dualities into balance.

I just watched that interview a couple weeks ago btw, laughed my # off. Definitely 2 thumbs up.



posted on Feb, 7 2014 @ 07:03 PM
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I have personal 'proof' of reincarnation based on recurrent very vivid past life dreams I had as a small child.

I have personal 'proof' of survival of spirit after death because of a long visit I had with my father immediately after he was declared dead at a hospital 20 miles away.

And I don't believe in a god, any god; certainly not the white bearded muscular guy on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, or the psychopathic mass murderer of the Old Testament, or the new improved version New Testament god who liked to go around impregnating virgins with sacrificial doomed progeny all to teach the inhabitants of a tiny planet in a tiny solar system in a mediocre galaxy some vague lesson about sin and behaving the right way and stuff.

Is there some force behind the billions of universes and billions of stars and billions of planets and billions of extrapolated living planets thereby?

Probably but I haven't met that force yet except in theory, as we all have.

I think we keep coming back until we remember and then we get to try something different. I think the biggest discovery humanity will make is that remembering.

And as my signature says...,



posted on Feb, 7 2014 @ 07:06 PM
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reply to post by signalfire
 


I think we keep coming back until we remember and then we get to try something different. I think the biggest discovery humanity will make is that remembering.


This is brilliant. I agree with you totally. I've felt that to be the truth since I was about 13.....

Thanks for contributing



posted on Feb, 7 2014 @ 07:12 PM
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reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
 



So kids you have dealt with willingly and voluntarily chose to go to detention even if they didn't have to? Genuine question, I don't think you're lying.

Yep! They actually would get so upset that they would take themselves to the "time out room"....
one time a kid was banging on the lockers outside the classroom all the way to the office, and then discovered someone else was in the 'time-out room' - he immediately calmed down. Said "he'd wait".




If that's the case then I think it is most likely that those kind of children make up the vast vast minority.


No, not really.

I think maybe you're mixing up 10-11 year-olds with 12 & Olders.

It has to do with the physical development of the brain. (And, of course, genetics (nature) and experience (nurture).)
edit on 2/7/14 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 7 2014 @ 07:13 PM
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i once asked my grandmother what that feeling is when i pee that makes my shoulders shake uncontrollably.

she said "it's when someone walks over your grave"

i didn't really think much about the meaning at the time, but over the years having become more accustomed to the feeling, i put some thought into it.. but i've still yet to understand it completely.

i understand the science behind it
but sometimes i like to think there's something more..

I had the feeling in my entire body the whole time i attended my cousin's funeral. he was only 5 months older than me. i get the feeling a lot thinking about lost loved ones...but of course, that's not the only time.

it's easier for me to understand my grandmother's definition from a figurative sense...kind of like making ends meet...makes more sense when i have the feeling during an epiphany too.



posted on Feb, 7 2014 @ 07:26 PM
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reply to post by Jarring
 


Have you ever experienced 'expanding head syndrome'? From about age 10, I had this weird feeling about 'who am I?'..'what am I doing here behind my eyes (aside from being alone)'..'wait, my head feels like it's spreading out'.....

I dunno.



posted on Feb, 7 2014 @ 07:33 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


yes, i think it happens when young people get epiphanies, it can be difficult to remember what exactly was on your mind because the experience was overbearing.



posted on Feb, 7 2014 @ 07:35 PM
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reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 



When you speak of an ''afterlife'' without God, then does it mean the whole system of souls, reincarnation, etc is a purely natural phenomena?
Yep. It would mean that.


A theist understands a Creator created the life/afterlife system in which a persons consciousness (or soul) gets transferred somewhere else after death.

Yes, that is what a 'theist' thinks (at least, the Abrahamic types think it).


Are you claiming this system exists naturally?

Well, sk0rp, I'm not 'claiming' it does (although if pressed, I would do so), but at this point, I am merely suggesting.... it only just today occurred to me while doing chores....

So, I present it for purposes of exploring different ideas about the idea.



posted on Feb, 8 2014 @ 02:06 AM
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A few years back I got into meditation big time and I got really good at it

Anyway thanks to this meditation I became aware of an >I< watching my life/body/brain in the same way someone might watch a film and I have wondered what will happen when that >I< sees the last thought my brain will generate, will it be like a film that gets stuck on one frame that lasts (as far as the >I< is concerned) forever or will the >I< just move on to some other thing of interest?

Also when I was meditating one time I found myself somewhere else (this happens sometimes) I was on a World War 1 battlefield, there must have been a lull in the fighting because a British captain came out of the trenches to talk to me, he told me about himself and I remember thinking if this guy was me in a previous life then his life story could explain much about my life and how I think about stuff – his life coloured my life, and if this is so then I can say I dealt with some of his outstanding stuff, some of it became unimportant and some still remains unresolved – it was a fascinating insight into myself

Now is there really an >I< and did I really meet a version of myself on a World War 1 battlefield - I don’t know it could be just the normal organic function of my brain under the effects of meditation or there could be something to this either way I think its very cool



posted on Feb, 8 2014 @ 03:22 AM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


I love the way you think. I was in the same place recently, so I get where you're coming from.

Belief in the afterlife is possible without faith in God. It's the same as belief in the supernatural.

But come on. All these nearly immortal beings out there, and nobody's trying to be God?

It's just a small step to take to wonder "Maybe there's someone who succeeded..."



posted on Feb, 8 2014 @ 07:17 AM
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wildtimes
I was just watching Stephen Colbert interviewing Neil DeGrasse Tyson....

and it has brought to the front of my mind - (well, it's always at the front of my mind lately): Can't we believe in an afterlife without believing in God? I think the answer is YES.

I think NDEs have revealed amply that there is an afterlife, whether one is an adherent of a religion or not. They have established that no one religion (or any) is necessary to experience things outside our "waking world". Dreams and NDEs/OBEs seem to be universal phenomena - even those with no religion have been experientially willing to admit, after a NDE, that they experienced a 'beyond.'

So - do we really need to think "God" (the concept of God) has anything to do with it??

I do believe there is an afterlife. I do not feel convinced that a "God" has anything to do with it.

Can we have both as reasonable possibilities? I think so.

Probably my shortest OP ever
, but I want to know what ATS thinks. Looking forward to what you all have to say, if anything.


I believe there is an afterlife but your train of thought on this matter is "off in left field". Many did not say there is a beyond but gave very specific information about what they saw, who they saw and what they experienced.

You mentioned NDE'S, dreams and OBE'S and many speak of a heaven and hell which you failed to bring out in your thread. Why is that?


Of course there can be an afterlife without believing in a God but that does not mean there is no God.

And by the way if there is an afterlife, who made it?

If you believe in an afterlife than you MUST believe in God. If that is the case you can not be agnostic as you claim.
edit on 8-2-2014 by Jesuslives4u because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 8 2014 @ 07:21 AM
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reply to post by Jarring
 



yes, i think it happens when young people get epiphanies, it can be difficult to remember what exactly was on your mind because the experience was overbearing.

Yeah?
I guess my first 'epiphany' then was when I was about 10 - and I was doing some laundry in the basement of our house.
It's happened frequently since then - and strangely, I remember the occasions - where I was, what I was doing -

eventually I learned how to 'deliberately' do it - I think I didn't describe it quite right. But then, It's very hard to describe.

Kind of like being aware of and perceiving from the EM field/aura that surrounds me - and it's about 3 times the size of the 'in my head' awareness. I still see using my eyes, but my 'consciousness' exceeds the size of my 'brain'.

I have, however, had a couple of 'epiphanies' while practicing 'meditation' - which Buddhists refer to as 'enlightenment' - I first got a handle on the concept after reading Alan Watts about 20 years ago. That fleeting 'knowledge and absolute harmony' with everything - that everything is exactly as it should be at any given moment - and all we truly "have" is a series of those "moments".



posted on Feb, 8 2014 @ 07:27 AM
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reply to post by Jesuslives4u
 



Of course there can be an afterlife without believing in a God but that does not mean there is no God.

And by the way if there is an afterlife, who made it?

If you believe in an afterlife than you MUST believe in God. If that is the case you can not be agnostic as you claim.

I didn't expect you to accept the premise - as you've made your stance quite clear earlier and I'm aware you will argue with anyone who disagrees with your hardcore Jesusism.


And whether you like it or not, I CAN believe in an afterlife and NOT believe in God. I didn't bring up "heaven" and "hell" because I've covered those bases many, many times on here; you are still unaware of that, being new and not having read enough threads to know my position (although you can read through my threads and posts at your leisure).

And yes, I CAN be agnostic as I claim. If there is an afterlife, there is an afterlife. Doesn't have to be that someone "made it". It just is.




edit on 2/8/14 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 8 2014 @ 09:23 AM
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reply to post by AliceBleachWhite
 


You're just a long hard nonverbal look away from Budhism here. Us westerners confusingly think of reincarnation (and the bits I between) as something positive: you deposit another quarter and get to play again.

Budha's insight was that it is possible to break out of the loop. You just have to pay careful attention, learn how not to be distracted by your mind so that you can use it as a tool to hack out.

Which is neat, but does not explain what is really going on here. My best suspicion so far is that it's a massive search algorithm for the minimal Kolmogorof complexity of something.

As to the OP, OSSUM post. To invoke the hypothesis of GOD, I feel anyone should define what they mean by that. There seems to be very little consensus on this, so almost no sensible discussion. And in most cases, the definitions that come up when you press people on it are unlikely and if true would much better be explained by a more local intelligent entity.

On the other hand, omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, good words to describe a fully ubiquitous quantum computing substrate......



posted on Feb, 8 2014 @ 09:34 AM
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reply to post by asciikewl
 



As to the OP, OSSUM post. To invoke the hypothesis of GOD, I feel anyone should define what they mean by that. There seems to be very little consensus on this, so almost no sensible discussion.

Quite!
Glad you're enjoying the thread!!





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