Accepting an afterlife as fact without belief in "God"

reply to post by Cuervo

Most atheists who believe in the afterlife or understand what's on the other sides usually stop calling themselves "atheist" and move to the broader and more flexible term of "agnostic".

Precisely....

that is the whole point of the thread.
(I identify as 'agnostic' - having exploring many religions over the decades).

reply to post by Jarring

I feel inclined to believe that is by free will that we live, and by free will--purpose for whatever matter was meant to serve.

And, in that vein, I think it might be true (seems likely) that we come here to live out a certain life BECAUSE of 'free will' - that we, between incarnations, decide (with the help of ethereal teachers and guides and mentors) what we need to experience next.

It obviously takes more than one lifetime to learn "all there is to know" on Earth....
so - we get "recess" as we go along.

Make sense?
I think so.

wildtimes
reply to post by Jarring

 

it is ours for believing that scientific accuracy is enough reason for anything to exist.

What??
I certainly don't think that 'scientific accuracy' is a 'reason' for anything to exist. Nor is it a 'cause' or 'mission' regarding our existence. I'm not at all sure of what the reason we exist is, but I think scientific inquiry is important - we are born curious, open-minded, and enthusiastic....

what's that all about?

well that's good, a lot of people forget about free will when it comes to purpose. life would be meaningless without free will.

it comes with the innocence of being born. i don't think it was planned necessarily, that's just something that naturally comes with new life. A lot like instincts, it's just how you use your body and mind according to what you've already digested from it and the world.

wildtimes
reply to post by Jarring

 

I feel inclined to believe that is by free will that we live, and by free will--purpose for whatever matter was meant to serve.

And, in that vein, I think it might be true (seems likely) that we come here to live out a certain life BECAUSE of 'free will' - that we, between incarnations, decide (with the help of ethereal teachers and guides and mentors) what we need to experience next.

It obviously takes more than one lifetime to learn "all there is to know" on Earth....
so - we get "recess" as we go along.

Make sense?
I think so.

idk if i can completely agree with that, i believe if there is such a thing as reincarnation, that a soul doesn't necessarily choose where to be born, and that it has a predestined order of life to fulfill down the family tree according to its bloodline and purity of consciousness.

reply to post by Jarring

idk if i can completely agree with that, i believe if there is such a thing as reincarnation, that a soul doesn't necessarily choose where to be born, and that it has a predestined order of life to fulfill down the family tree according to its bloodline and purity of consciousness.

I think those are somewhat the same 'idea' -
Is the 'predestined order of life to fulfill' a random thing? Or does 'choice of where to be born' happen before we are here (again)???

Have you ever read the Tibetan Book of the Dead?

reply to post by Jarring


This is my belief as well, we don't choose where to go, we are just born into certain situations without choice. The situation you end up could be decided by your deeds in past lives, "you reap what you sow" in a way.

I think it's possible that Earth is a sort of "detention center" where people end up going after being an a-hole in a past life. We end up here for punishment and the punishment is a learning experience. If we don't pass the test, we end up being sent to planets like this over and over until we get it right. Once we get it right we end up on a planet where the truth and peace are in control, not lies and chaos as in this world.

I don't believe all advanced societies are as corrupt as ours, I believe there are societies that choose truth over lies and are far more advanced than us. But maybe I'm just being an idealist and they really don't exist, I sure do hope so though.

reply to post by wildtimes


it's not necessarily random, nor is it chosen by you or for you. think of it like a slide, or a tunnel...your conscious/history perpetually lead you to your next life without interruption...sometimes the lives can seem really quick or very long depending on the form you take. i wouldn't doubt retaining consciousness from your previous life in your new one is common as well, however limited you're able to express that consciousness is probably due to the order of life...but eventually i'm assuming an order of indifference in consciousness will become well acknowledged between you and your surrounding forms to the point of erasing the very idea of "you" so that any form you take next will be completely innocent.

reply to post by wildtimes


and no, i don't think i have.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

This is my belief as well, we don't choose where to go, we are just born into certain situations without choice. The situation you end up could be decided by your deeds in past lives, "you reap what you sow" in a way.

So, why could you not be informed of misdeeds in your past (now ended) life , and be part of a team determining 'what next', and then making it so? Like a schoolkid in the principal's conference room - who is 'achieving' things thought to be negative and counter-productive, like serious balking at authority - and the committee (principal, teachers, counselors, student, and parents) together decide what the student needs to do.

I've worked for 25+ years with "troubled" youths; I know when you ask them what they think would work, they are more than ready to offer up their own approved 'consequences' - "I think I shouldn't get to go to recess for a week". For example.

If there is a God, I don't think it would be possible for a physical being to withstand the presence as all creation would literally blow your heart and mind into atomic dust. It may be possible in a non-physical spiritual form as all you would receive would be the necessary switches in your consciousness for you to move on from. I don't think reincarnation would be possible without the necessary switches to be turned on in your consciousness, and I don't think anything but "God" could do it.

reply to post by Jarring

I don't think reincarnation would be possible without the necessary switches to be turned on in your consciousness, and I don't think anything but "God" could do it.

Fair enough.

So - how, then, do you define "God"?

reply to post by wildtimes


undefinable

reply to post by Jarring

I agree.

You might really enjoy reading The Tibetan Book of the Dead.

(This is just a pdf of it, but you can buy it in hard copy, or find other sites that have it published online as well.)

I'd enjoy discussing your thoughts about it.

God cannot be contained in a finite model, which is a big reason I don't try to prove he exists.

I can try, like I am inclined to believe that there is one place where God is still and there is only God, the initial creating point where he commanded all existence. God is everywhere else, still as well, but other free wills reproduce like meiosis unfolding a reference of time between events. This initial creating point exists within this timeless God in only one place, but nonetheless before everything and all other free will so that it SEEMS everywhere else as well...when in fact it's just a mental illusion tricking us because all that is and was came from one place, one will.

AliceBleachWhite
As I commented on another thread discussing "Afterlife", I don't see it.

If people are going to some spooky spirit existence, just to come back and live these kinds of lives, it's pretty disgusting and irrational.

Well if YOU don't see it I guess it must not exist, right? Maybe there's a problem with your conception of rationality.

Buddhists call this common problem "Wrong View". Somehow I doubt most Atheists have ever heard of it.

Basically, short answer, God exists outside of time and space, so that it seems like he is everywhere at once, but in reality, God isn't even here.

wildtimes
Can't we believe in an afterlife without believing in God?

You betchya. No problem. People can believe whatever they want. The truth may be different than what we believe but we won't find that out until we are dead. That being said .... I don't understand why humanity automatically linked an afterlife with a God. The two don't necessarily have to go together. In my case, I believe in both. But I understand why others do not.

reply to post by FlyersFan

You betchya. No problem. People can believe whatever they want. The truth may be different than what we believe but we won't find that out until we are dead.

It's so 'surreal' to think about, isn't it???

Glad you're here!

We won't know - not quite for sure - until we 'live it' (die it?)....EXPERIENCE IT.
Kinda like becoming a mother - you just can't really explain it to people. They have to live it to 'get it'.

I will begin by saying that I dont belong to any religion or organization, i have neither doctrine nor dogma to adhere to; only ideas that make sense based on my personal studies and research; theological, philosophic and scientific.

this is a slippery slope i think; on the one hand, you have a belief in a life/death cycle that is greater than yourself, undetectable until activated. Now, if you have this kind of system in place, one would assume that it would require some sort of oversight, whether "physical" (by a being/s) or "energetic" (by the force, ka, chi, prana, etc) either way, you must, at some point, concede that there is a greater force at work that you can neither identify nor deny. Hence you have the IDEA of "God" which, yes, doesnt require the WORD "God" but it certainly implies the sort of force behind the nature of things, no?

Is it possible that the governing body of such a system or cycle could just be the souls on the other side awaiting reincarnation? possible, though i would posit as unlikely considering they hold the same place in the universe as you or I, just waiting for our next turn, so-to-speak. So what I mean is then, if one believes in life after death, or reincarnation, or like you mentioned, the tibetan book of the dead. How then, can one rationally believe without a doubt that there is no higher power? no god? all systems require a method of control, laws, rules. These things require a level of organized intelligence to implement them.

The Hermetics Student would say;
As Above, So Below - As Below, So Above.

This is something that has perplexed me for some time, but becomes clearer and clearer as the days move on. Each will find their own meaning behind things. The theory of Biocentrism is where I was pointing before that book came out - even if the greater power I speak of is just a collective conscious awareness that permeates all things, would that not be classifiable as a "god" as we have defined it? all knowing, all seeing, with us all the time, everywhere, forever...

At the end of the day, whatever is in control of the system that we inhabit is far beyond the comprehension of our limited perception.
I think it would be rather naive to believe in the system without at least seriously considering some kind of force that controls it - whatever that force may be.


Food for thought.

reply to post by wildtimes


The student really isn't a part of the decision, the committee (karma) is the one that makes that decision. If a student has the choice of whether to be punished or not they will choose not to be punished every time. No one likes punishment so no one would choose to get it in my opinion. If I had the choice of whether to be sent to Earth again I would not choose it, yet I am still here.

Karma is the deciding factor in my opinion, it is the committee. Your moral compass is the thing that informs you of your misdeeds, the golden rule is what lets you know whether you are doing right or wrong so if you go against that moral compass you know it and karma will decide to put you in "detention".

Just my personal opinion. Like I said, I could be wrong. No one "knows" for an absolute certainty, but personal experience can lead you toward an idea. My personal experience has led me to this conclusion (though its liable to change), karma is the deciding factor and the only real "choice" you have in where you go is how you act in any current life cycle.