Illegal Now For Homeless To Use Blankets?

bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

 

While there is some compassion element to it, there are far less homeless in Seattle than any Florida city. Florida is warm, and attracts the "career" homeless. The folks who will likely never have stability, and likely have mental issues. Your situation was more like you are a productive person that hit a rough patch. Seattle's homeless are most likely more like that, than the folks you would see in the south. That, and the seriously mentally ill who just never make it down south.

Seattle has an estimated homeless population of about 8,000, I think. Not sure what the numbers are down your way. While Seattle's climate is mild, it is cold and damp for most of the year. No one in their right mind would choose to become homeless here. Hypothermia is a huge problem. There is a "transient" homeless population, in otherwords, homeless people coming from other states. Seattle is a major destination for a number of vagabonds. The population fluctuates.

I ended up homeless because of family. I was living in Spain for 4 years, in a country where unemployment in our specific region was 40%, married to a man who would not let me work and doled out my "allowance". I had enough. I had took care of myself well before him, I'd go home and start anew. Except my new stepmother did not like me living with them, because I was baggage from the old marriage. So a week after coming home, I was taking a bus to the VA hospital, to the homeless clinic there. From there, it was about two months of shelters, Tent City, and random places to sleep, soup kitchens and food stamps, clothing banks and communal showers, day labor and resource hunting, or just getting as far away from downtown as I could for the day, until the got me into a halfway house project for homeless vets. After a year and a half living there and a security job, I am in my own place, thanks to VASH, VA supported housing, and will be working a new job soon, despite certain setbacks. This would have never happened without assistance, both from the VA, private Charities, and decent citizens who would open up church auditoriums when the shelters were overflowing.

I never spent my money I earned on anything but necessities. The whole time I was homeless, I had one 40 ounce can of Olde English. That was after 6 hours of holding up a sign for a business in North Seattle, one of a few day jobs I did. My legs were sore. Day labor was sporadic, somedays, there was nothing left on the board, all jobs had been taken, so you had a day to kill. Mainly just walking around, trying to stay awake. At the shelters, you only got a maximum of six hours sleep, most nights it was 4. Often, I'd end up laying on the grass in a park and trying to catch up on some sleep, when it wasn't raining or near freezing.

I was lucky. I had the VA, and qualified for certain program. Many of the people I knew on the streets didn't. I knew people that had been on a waiting list for housing for like two years. They had been in the shelter, or Nicklesville ( a really ghetto camp of homeless, worse than tent city by far) for two years. That sad thing was, these were people that would never be gainfully employed, because they were crazier than a sh*thouse rat. They had no VA to help them, and the state of the shelters was often dismal.

What pissed me off was the number of vacant houses and apartments I saw all over. A fraction of these empty housing units would have housed all of Seattle's homeless, with many units left over. I didn't blame squatters for breaking in and crashing. I was tempted to a few times. There were quite a number of vacant houses around the VA. Houses that the freaking banks owned by taking it from someone else, and are leaving empty. It made me sick.

My point being is that many times, those that have a chance for living a normal life again need help to get there.

reply to post by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf


i don't argue your point one bit.

The homeless in my area are a combination of druggies who just don't try, and mentally ill who just can't try. For the latter, there is help offered. For the former, they won't ask for help, and it likely wouldn't exist for long.

In larger cities, it is about the same down here. San Antonio has a lot of homeless "kids" (some juvenile, some just young 20's). Austin has its share, but handles it better.

The Vagabond
reply to post by destination now

 

Thomas Payne- agrarian justice It's simply not true that you have no responsibility for your fellow man.
Civilization destroys and over harvests the natural environment, depriving outsiders of the opportunity to live. Because civilization has deprived people of the right to live naturally through no choice of their own, it is indebted to all for the original value of the natural resources, before improvement.

Thus when you drain the Colorado river to make golf courses and water parks in the freaking Mojave, you don't have to let the homeless golf or water slide, but you can't let them die of thirst because you took free water and want to charge them for it.

The trees and the dirt and all the makings of a safe warm fire in nature were taken away to make room for your buildings, so if you don't replace the access to warmth you took from those who don't participate in fulltime consumerism, you have no right to complain if they start a trash fire. Humanity was here first- civilization has no right to displace it. Why is it that wild animals get more respect than "wild" humans?

What??? She's an alcoholic with serious mental health issues..she no more wants to live in nature than I do. She would prefer to drink herself into oblivion than change her life. This is Scotland, not the Mojave desert!

And it's not a trash fire, it's a block of flats and she's lighting fires inside the building, there are elderly residents in the block as well as my own family and I'll bet if someone came a put your family at risk by lighting fires in a similar way, you wouldn't be so holier than thou about it then.

reply to post by destination now


We have homeless where I come from, yes dangers are created, no it's not 100% their fault, and no I don't change my tune when they camp in the orchard abutting my home.

Civilization has artificially created its own problems. Nevermind that we (as participants in civilization) turned rich land into a place where people will waste away and die unless they sell their lives to a rich man for support, nevermind that we stacked a large number of people in a pile of flammable materials, nevermind that we made the alcohol knowing it inevitably does this to some people and distributed it anyway cause there was money in it, let's focus all the blame on her for not choosing to work a ridiculously unnatural amount in exchange for a bunch of cheap disposable crap that she would not need to survive if we hadn't claimed ownership over every last speck of Earth and changed the way the natural order.

Whether she wants to live natural is not the point. It would be an available means of survival if not for ask the fruits of civilization you enjoy, and since you are sharing in this civilization, you share in the fact that civilization must reimburse these people the opportunity to subsist that it deprived them of.

What you are suggesting is that every individual is property of civilization from birth and must do something civilization demands or die. In a vacuum I'd say you can disinclude them and let natural selection decide, but that came off the table as a potentially fair deal when civilization brought us to the point where there are more people than can live naturally.

As radical as this may sound it's really not asking much. I'm not saying everyone is owed a home and a good steak and car- I'm saying there must be some livable space open to all people, because that's what was on the land before we stupidly destroyed it to make room for slums, which was a decision made by people who viewed their fellow man as beasts of burden.

reply to post by The Vagabond


Very, very well put Vagabond.

Thanks Texan, it's nice to know I'm making sense considering the looks I get sometimes for saying people have equal if not greater rights than deer.

reply to post by The Vagabond

and no I don't change my tune when they camp in the orchard abutting my home.

Let me explain...she is not camping in my "orchard" she is camping on the common stairway inside the block of flats that I live in, ergo if she lights a fire that gets out of control, my daughter and I could be dead of the smoke inhalation within 30 mins, and as she does this at 2am, the chances are that we are asleep and have no way of knowing that a fire has started until it is too late (and we live on the 3rd floor, so her lighting a fire on the stairway, blocks our escape route anyway) So for example, if you left your door unlocked and a person walked into the hallway of your home, urinated themselves and then accidentally set fire to the floor, you would be okay with that?

As for people living off the land in Scotland, you would need some rather impressive equipment to withstand the cold during the colder months (September to May) and believe me, this woman has serious mental health issues and if you gave her a patch of land and some camping equipment, she would not have a clue what to do with it, let alone be able to go out and hunt or gather her own food, so your argument is moot.

Yes, I do think she needs to be in a facility that can help her with her problems, but your solution has absolutely no value whatsoever in the situation that we have in Scotland

reply to post by The Vagabond


Totally agreed. If people do not wish to partake in or contribute to civilization, then there should be a place for them to go live outside of civilization where they can live as they wish.

I think Destination Now's situation is very different, though. The lady in question is not dealing with a full deck if she is lighting fires in stairwells. That could endanger the others, which is also unacceptable. If she were lighting fires outside the building, in an alley or corrugated metal shelter, then I would say let her be, let her live. But not inside an inhabited building full of people. That is just unacceptable.

I don't know exactly this woman's state of mind, whether she simply wants to live on the streets by choice, or is mentally incapable of making her own decision in that matter. There are a lot of mentally ill people that don't know, understand, or realize the gravity of their situation she is in. If she is really mentally ill, she does need to go somewhere where they can help her out, and at least get her in a state of mind where she can make choices of her own. If she does have her faculties, then I agree, she should have somewhere to go where she won't be run off and can live as she pleases.

reply to post by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf


Thank you! You understand the situation perfectly. Sadly this woman is not capable of fending for herself, and she does need intervention. However, with all the cuts to government services, unfortunately there is nothing suitable for her. I don't hate her, or wish her ill, but I cannot allow the risk she poses to me and my family in the current situation.

reply to post by destination now


You're not picking up what I'm laying down. I'm not saying it's good that they are lighting a fire in your building, I'm saying what the heck do you expect. Until there's a better option for this person you are saying they should go face certain death rather than you being at any risk at all. Do you not realize that your own source of warmth, while perhaps slightly less dangerous than a fire (maybe, I haven't checked your wiring) also threatens lives? That's NORMAL, and the answer isn't to not live because it affects others, but to comprise and give as well as take so that we can all have an opportunity to live.

As for your point about how Scotland was covered in flats and alleys since time began and the land never have life to anyone who didn't sell themselves for wages... we Americans don't know much about history so I went presume to tell you how obviously wrong you are.

Just let's not act like society would be even slightly inconvenienced if we took the obvious solution of including in every developed area a warm public space and a free food garden. Let's not pretend that working as servants in exchange for walmart goods makes us good or that not doing so makes others bad. Let's just solve the problem because it will feel better, instead of insisting that it never should have involved us in the first place.

reply to post by The Vagabond

As for your point about how Scotland was covered in flats and alleys since time began and the land never have life to anyone who didn't sell themselves for wages... we Americans don't know much about history so I went presume to tell you how obviously wrong you are.

Now you're just making stuff up, I said no such thing, I said that you would need to have a lot of equipment to survive our climate all year round!

As for her keeping warm at a possible risk to myself, that's not the case at all, the fires she starts are as a result of dropping cigarette ends because she is blotto drunk. That's why she urinates herself as well.

I have no objection to someone living off the grid and camping out in a field or open space, even in disused buildings is fine by me, but as I and another poster have pointed out, she has serious mental health issues and is a real danger to everyone else in the building. And you avoided answering my question about what you would do if a drunk stranger showed up in your home, urinated on your floor and then started a fire by dropping a cigarette in your hallway while you and your family were asleep and thereby potentially killing all of you in the process. But by your way of thinking, that would be okay and their right to doss in your house is greater than your right to live in a safe environment.

reply to post by destination now


FWIW, and this is going to piss off a few people here...they would likely be shot before they got that far.

I have loads of compassion. But when it comes to entering my home, i take the "shoot first, ask questions later" approach to people who are not friends/family.

reply to post by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf


Agreed as well, the building certainly isn't the place for the fire, but it is a natural feedback against the society that threw this woman overboard and if society would just respond rationally the problem would go away. Instead everyone's waiting for the mentally ill person to respond rationally. We're either gonna watch this person die or intervene, and let's face it, we're ashamed to admit we choose option 1 so we want to just look away and let it happen on its own. If I were the one dying I'd probably say it serves people right to be endangered by what they choose to ignore.

If there was an impasse between the safety of my family and that of someone who had to build a fire in the halfway to not freeze, i'd have it solved in an hour with one trip to the second hand store for a space heater and a pot. Would I be a little frustrated that it was all on me for some reason- bet on it. But at the end of the day do I want urine on the floor or to give someone a pot to pee in? Do I wanna be burned alive or do I wanna run an extension cord to power a safe source of warmth?

The Vagabond
reply to post by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

 

Agreed as well, the building certainly isn't the place for the fire, but it is a natural feedback against the society that threw this woman overboard and if society would just respond rationally the problem would go away. Instead everyone's waiting for the mentally ill person to respond rationally. We're either gonna watch this person die or intervene, and let's face it, we're ashamed to admit we choose option 1 so we want to just look away and let it happen on its own. If I were the one dying I'd probably say it serves people right to be endangered by what they choose to ignore.

This part of your post stings. It should sting every single person reading here. I know it stings me.

Thanks for that perspective.

reply to post by The Vagabond


Unfortunately those options would just be unsuitable for this woman, she really does need help but not by giving her a camping stove and utensils. She is an alcoholic and has mental health problems, we live in quite a small town and I do know a bit about her history, she has had flats before, but always puts alcohol above everything else, so she ultimately gets evicted. A couple of months ago, she was given a room in a hostel, warm food, new clothes etc and she caused so many problems for the other residents, banging on their doors, shouting obscenities etc that she had to be asked to leave.

Whilst I do agree in principle with what you are saying, sadly there are some people who cannot live independently, now I don't know how she came to be in this situation in the first place, maybe she had an abusive childhood, an abusive relationship, but at the end of the day, she makes the choice to spend all of her money on cigs and booze and there really does come a point where no one else can help her, she has to help herself first.

reply to post by destination now


I'm getting a better picture of this circumstance and once again yes this person has problems etc etc. But she has little if any control over the situation. We civilized people made that situation possible- it wouldn't happen in nature. We civilized people haven't made any plans to deal with this problem that we knew about. We are doing a bad job of protecting our civilization and we deserve the consequences.

If I was in your situation I'll tell you exactly what I would do.
1. I would peacefully obstruct someone from doing anything that violates my rights or endangers me.
2. I would give that person an out- an alternate means of meeting their immediate needs- not just make it a matter of you gotta respect me and I don't care what happens to you, but treat it as a matter of mutual survival.
3. I would organize with my neighbors to make the government accountable for failing us and the woman in question so that a permanent solution is put in place.

My family tends to be very conservative, very what's mine is mine, but for that reason we run three generations deep in the history of the local homeless shelter.

One more important point, there is no way to communicate with her because she is always drunk. I've tried to talk to her but she doesn't understand what I am saying and she just mumbles incoherently. I wish I could sit her down and talk to her, explain that she can make other choices, but that will never happen because she either does not want to change, or is incapable of changing, so I'm sorry there really is nothing that I can do, and I WILL NOT have my family put at risk to enable her to carry on her chaotic lifestyle.

destination now
there really does come a point where no one else can help her, she has to help herself first.

I was pretty much with you up until this point in the post. You don't reach a point where you are so broken that you can only repair yourself without assistance. You reach a point where you become incapable of fixing yourself or even knowing that you need fixing.

Yes, a person does have to want to change, and if a person does not want to change and is a danger to society, the law says we can force her to live under the imposed safety and order of a prison or other institution in hopes of getting them to a point where they can continue to rehabilitate themselves, or at least keep them from causing harm, but the law says nothing about driving them into the cold and waiting until they end up dead or become so desperate and dangerous that someone else ends up dead, just because they wouldn't play along.

reply to post by The Vagabond

Yes, a person does have to want to change, and if a person does not want to change and is a danger to society, the law says we can force her to live under the imposed safety and order of a prison or other institution in hopes of getting them to a point where they can continue to rehabilitate themselves, or at least keep them from causing harm

Exactly, and in several of my earlier posts on this thread I have talked about the lack of facilities for this woman and others like her, government cuts have seen the end to residential facilities for people with drug, alcohol and mental health issues. I don't have any more say in the UK govts funding and spending than you do in the US, therefore my point that there is little I can do about it. My only option when this woman turns up in my close is to phone the police, who will hold her until she sobers up, then she's back on the streets again and they are just as powerless to do anything unless she commits a crime, and as I said earlier, lets just hope that she doesn't end up on a manslaughter charge because she has started a fire that kills innocent people.

reply to post by The Vagabond


Agreed there. Offering at least some relief for her basic human needs would be a good start. I also agree that it is civilization and the rules of the game that breaks people like this. Homelessness, alcoholism, insanity, drug abuse, these are diseases found in civilization. You do not find them in people that have had little or no contact with civilization. Whether one is better than another is a matter of perspective. But it is only in civilization that these things can happen.

When I was a security guard, my main job was to run "transients", as they were referred to, off the client's property, an office complex. Since it was right next to Victor Steinbrueck Park, it was a constant job. A job I hated, given that I had been in the same place as them, though not quite as messed up. I eventually quit the job. But during this time, you would see all sorts of bad behavior. A few of them would pee right in front of god and everyone in the middle of the courtyard. One fine gentleman took a dump in the concrete flower box right in front of the windows of a very expensive seafood restaurant. A few were wildly out of their minds, staggering around shouting at everyone in sight, calling them everything from secret agents of the government to warlocks. Sometimes I walk through a service corridor and find someone smoking crack or shooting up. In the park, you got to see everything from people screwing in broad daylight on the grass to people getting shanked over bad drug deals. Paramedics and cops were always there nonstop.

My job was to chase them off the property. To get them to go anywhere else. And this bugged me. Because really, where else could they go? Occasionally the cops would do a sweep of the park and drive them all out for a while, but they all return. Why? There was no other place to go, nothing to do. No matter where they go, they get driven off. I get them to leave, only to have them to show up on someone elses property, only to be driven off again. It was a cycle I remembered all too well. You can keep driving those folks off, but until they have a place to go, they will keep coming back. Seattle does have a few shelters and charities to help, but given the numbers and problems, they are overburdened enough as is. There is certainly nowhere for the crazy ones to go to get help, unless they get involved in criminal activity, then they can go to jail. But until there's an alternative, what else are they going to do? People do help them,. from time to time. At night, sometimes I'd go there to this one particular group of kids, and give them blankets and ponchos and sundries. Different charities have been collecting backpacks, tents, and sleeping bags for homeless people. A lot of them camp in the various greenbelts or abandoned industrial lots. So at least, there are some options for the homeless here. Elsewhere, I don't know.

But I agree, we do have some sort of responsibility to do something about this issue. People don't get like that by chance. And the longer they spend on the streets, the more hope they lose, the worse they get.