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The Real Meaning Behind Jesus Sacrifice.

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posted on Feb, 10 2014 @ 11:59 AM
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reply to post by Joecroft
 


In my opinion there can be no "first" in infinity because there is no beginning or end in infinity. The only "first" in an esoteric sense is the concept infinity itself, the "first" lies at every point within infinity as does the "end". Where the beginning and end meet is in the now, so the now is the first and the last, the beginning and end.


Gospel of Thomas

18. The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us, how will our end come?"

Jesus said, "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is.

Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


Once you reach "gnosis" you become connected to the first spiritual being and become it.


John 14
20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.


If we are within Jesus and Jesus is within us then we are the "first" right along with him. If you understand the message he was preaching then you will preach it as well and be the "first" just as Jesus was.

What I think Jesus means by everyone being within everyone else is the image we see. Say you and Jesus are standing across from one another, the image that you see of Jesus is created "in" your mind and the image Jesus sees of you is created "in" his mind, so you are both "in" each other and you are both "in" the Father.

Jesus is said to be the "image" of the invisible God. The image is the Son and we are all the Son because we have the image and are part of it. Put your hand in front of your face, it has been created in the image of God, your image.

I personally don't see Jesus as being better or coming before anyone else because we have all existed for eternity already.
edit on 2/10/2014 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)




posted on Feb, 10 2014 @ 12:58 PM
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reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
 





Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
In my opinion there can be no "first" in infinity because there is no beginning or end in infinity. The only "first" in an esoteric sense is the concept infinity itself, the "first" lies at every point within infinity as does the "end". Where the beginning and end meet is in the now, so the now is the first and the last, the beginning and end.


Yes, but there is a beginning, in terms of what is first created out of infinity. This is why it’s says in the beginning was the “word”, because Jesus is the word, the first being created by the Father, out of infinity. We came from infinity as well, but had a different starting point within it. There is structure and order to creation IMO.

Imagine tens minutes within infinity, if Jesus came forth after 2 mins within infinity, and I came out after 8 mins. Then that means Jesus came before me, even though I’m a son of God, just like Him.



Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Once you reach "gnosis" you become connected to the first spiritual being and become it.


What do mean by become it…?

The only thing I agree with, is that we become aware we are all spiritually connected to everything, and not that we become them, or it etc…



Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
I personally don't see Jesus as being better or coming before anyone else because we have all existed for eternity already.



Well, Jesus certainly doesn’t see himself as better than us either, because he calls us friends.

But I don’t think we existed for eternity, but that we were created, from out of eternity, by the Father, and thus we had a beginning starting point.

Knowing that you came from God and are spiritually connected to all things, is why Jesus calls us sons of the light, in the Gospel of Thomas.


- JC



posted on Feb, 10 2014 @ 01:09 PM
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reply to post by Joecroft
 


What I mean by becoming it is that when you reach "gnosis" you realize you were it all along. The day you reach gnosis is the day that Jesus says you will realize, or reach an understanding or knowledge of something, which is what gnosis stands for.

So why do you think Jesus say the one who stands at the beginning will not taste death?


Gospel of Thomas

18. The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us, how will our end come?"

Jesus said, "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is.

Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


Is Jesus speaking only of himself here? I don't see why he would be. He implies that anyone can "stand at the beginning" as long as they find the end as well.

Also, Jesus came after Buddha, does that mean Buddha came before Jesus in the beginning as well?


Gospel of Thomas

19. Jesus said, "Congratulations to the one who came into being before coming into being.

If you become my disciples and pay attention to my sayings, these stones will serve you.

For there are five trees in Paradise for you; they do not change, summer or winter, and their leaves do not fall. Whoever knows them will not taste death."


We all came into being before coming into being, which means this is not the first life we've lived nor will it be the last. This is where reincarnation comes in, we have been reincarnated for eternity already, it only happens that we are experiencing this incarnation at this time.

Those who know and believe in reincarnation do not taste death but move on into the next life and the next and the next for eternity, just as they did before even if they didn't realize it until a certain point.

The 5 trees Jesus speaks of are the 5 senses IMO, if you know the 5 senses then you know yourself and will not taste death because to know yourself is to know you are eternal.

Just my opinion of course, but I believe Jesus' words back it up.
edit on 2/10/2014 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

edit on 2/10/2014 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 10 2014 @ 01:53 PM
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NVM...
edit on 10-2-2014 by OpinionatedB because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 10 2014 @ 02:29 PM
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reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
 






Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
What I mean by becoming it is that when you reach "gnosis" you realize you were it all along.


By it, I assume you mean God…, but I only believe that I’m a part of God, and that I’m a son of the living Father. I don’t think my ego lol can handle anything else…



Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
So why does Jesus say the one who stands at the beginning will not taste death?


18. The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us, how will our end come?"

Jesus said, "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is.

Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."



I think by “the beginning”, Jesus is talking about where we came from…the beginning is the Father so to speak. All those that are from the Father, are part of the eternal God.

But of course, the above verse has to weighed up along, side the verse below. Why does Jesus say we are Sons of the Living Father?



From the Gospel of Thomas verse 3




When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father.








Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Also, Jesus came after Buddha, does that mean Buddha came before Jesus in the beginning as well?



This is what I’m trying to explain. Jesus is a spiritual entity, that came first, from the Father IMO. Which means He’s the first son, hence The son of God. He entered the body of a man, at a certain point in history, and is the reason why Jesus refers to himself as “set apart”, right after telling the Pharisees, that everyone is a son of God, according to the Old Testament scripture.




Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
We all came into being before coming into being, which means this is not the first life we've lived nor will it be the last. This is where reincarnation comes in, we have been reincarnated for eternity already, it only happens that we are experiencing this incarnation at this time.


I agree with what you said above, except I don’t believe we have been “reincarnated for eternity”….because this particular world universe, had a starting point. And like I was saying in my other post, different sons of the Father had different starting points as well.



Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Those who know and believe in reincarnation do not taste death but move on into the next life and the next and the next for eternity, just as they did before even if they didn't realize it until a certain point.

The 5 trees Jesus speaks of are the 5 senses IMO, if you know the 5 senses then you know yourself and will not taste death because to know yourself is to know you are eternal.

Just my opinion of course, but I believe Jesus' words back it up.


I agree, the 5 trees are the fives senses; But again for me, knowing you’re a part of the eternal, is why you will not taste death IMO…

Something else to consider here, before you reply. The Gnostics must have been aware of what your describing in your posts here with me. But at some point, the Gnostics started believing, that Jesus was the Word of God, in their texts.

Now remember, these were Gnostic Christians, who were not going along with the standard Christian Doctrines, set forth by the early church. If what you’ve described, is the true gnosis, then how did that change/belief occur, within their texts…?

Btw - I’m not expecting you to have an answer to that question, or to even attempt to answer it.


- JC



posted on Feb, 10 2014 @ 03:46 PM
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jmdewey60
reply to post by ctophil
 

His blood can not save anybody. All he did was to show the way to salvation.
OK, but how did he do that, exactly?
1 John 5:6a
This is the one who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. . . .
(2011 NIV)
Jesus is who he is not just from his baptism to this mission he was sent to fulfill, of spreading the gospel, but also going through his suffering and death, and then, ultimately his resurrection.
edit on 8-2-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)


The Master Jesus was a role model for the Israelites, and pretty much the rest of the world as you can see today. Let me give you a few examples of what he taught that really get you thinking, using intuition, not intellectual. What this means that you must use your inner voice of God (this is literally in a secret chamber of your heart, right in the middle of the chest) to decipher the symbolism. Don't use your intellectual mind like scientists to contemplate Bible scriptures. Also, the higher you are in consciousness (spiritual mind), the deeper you understand what Jesus taught. Everything spiritual in books and scriptures always have many layers of understanding.

Remember when Jesus said, "Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

And then Jesus also said, "And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

Both of these are saying the same thing. When you are Born of the Spirit, this means that you were baptized with Spirit within your consciousness. Remember when the churches taught that you must be baptized of water? Well, that was just the beginning. You must go through "levels of initiation" as you go higher within your mind. Read a post I made a while back concerning the "Trinity" of God, especially at the end of it concerning baptism. The Flesh represents the physical world (3rd Dimension), and the Spirit represents the higher, Spiritual World (5th Dimension and inside you). As Above, So below. As Within, So Without.

In the second quote that Jesus made above, he was talking about salvation in itself. He is saying that don't look here or there for salvation, look within yourself as I have discussed before. Once you do that, you will understand how to merge with Spirit. It is each individual's decisions and how they flow with The River of Life. Seek God everyday and moment in your daily life, give 100% times a billion of yourself, and then God will show you the way. Love God with all your soul, all your strength, and all your might. You will soon find out that life is holographic and was meant to just give you the experience of separation from God so that it can truly test your spiritual growth.

Also notice that Jesus, throughout his life, he was showing how to follow the Path of Spirit (or Path of God) by his teachings, his love for all things, his mercy towards everybody, his rejections of anything but the True Path of Spirit, his miracles that showed that with God all things are possible, and then his resurrection after death to show that anybody can do the same.


edit on 2/10/2014 by ctophil because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 10 2014 @ 04:25 PM
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reply to post by vethumanbeing
 


With the Peace and Love of God, greetings, Sister. The Spiritual Path is a constant struggle (and I might add it doesn't end after you go to Heaven, it gets harder, for God is infinite), but as long as you are in harmony with God (positive thinking, actions, love, honor, peace, grace, anything that is beautiful), it is not difficult. It is only difficult if you are swimming against the River of Life, thereby not keeping a constant meditation on ONENESS with God and still meandering through life with negativity, conflicts, prejudice, strife, and so forth. Think of the struggles of life like a dance. You must flow with the rhythm of the music. Otherwise, you are going to look clumsy and awful. You might even trip over your own toes and fall down on the floor. But as you get good at understanding God and how to flow in constant rhythm with the Universe, you will get closer and closer to a dance that is amazing to the eyes and even more spectacular to the Spirit. I have discussed this before...God is in you and you are in God.


edit on 2/10/2014 by ctophil because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 10 2014 @ 04:54 PM
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Joecroft
reply to post by ctophil
 





Originally posted by ctophil
It is true that Christ Jesus was just trying to teach the Israelites a true message of the Kingdom. Logically, if you went out and taught people the way Jesus did, most countries would throw you in jail for years.


Those in power wanted keep the threat of Hell over others, so they subverted Jesus words, and even added to them IMO, and made them fit into a theology around Hell and sacrifice.

And if God is sending people to Hell or destruction, then of course you need a sacrifice to get out of it. But God isn’t like that at all. God desires mercy not sacrifice, and the knowledge of the Holy above ALL else. And I’m sure, your well aware of all this.


- JC

edit on 9-2-2014 by Joecroft because: (no reason given)


Namaste, Brother. You wouldn't believe how much of a distortion the churches are teaching people. They have messed up, not only Jesus' words, but the entire Bible, resulting in an almost total falsehood. There are still some truths in all teachings, don't get me wrong. But it is like digging out a tiny piece of diamond from a 1,000 acre piece of land. I don't just blame the current churches, but also religious leaders across many thousands of years for changing and editing the scriptures (not just the Bible) to fit their agenda and keeping many things a secret.

If people really knew God, the word, "Hell," would be the last thing in their minds (if at all) when contemplating spiritual subjects. Hell is just a place created by the Collective Mind of the 4th Dimension, a place of very low consciousness. To glimpse of what Hell is like, imagine that you imitated Hitler by killing millions of people and every speckle of thought in all of your minds are thoughts of extreme hatred, destruction, and bloodshed. You can literally "go to Hell" while you're alive if you so desire. There are places on Earth that resemble Hell with its disgusting smell, fearful souls floating about, and darkness in the air that will cause you to hallucinate demonic imagery. The reason is because the collective consciousness in that location have been lowered significantly from wars, famine, disease, or many deaths. All the dimensions exist simultaneously at once, including Hell. But so does Heaven, as some places on Earth are placid, the air smells like sweet nectar, and it is just beautiful.

God is not, and I repeat, not the angry and strict ruler as the Old Testament and most people teach. God is merciful, yes. But that in itself is the wrong usage of a word. God doesn't have to be merciful, for there is nothing in this world that needs anybody to be merciful. This is just a thought pattern of the Mind of Man. So we must use words like "merciful" so that we may begin to understand a few spiritual things. God doesn't think like we do. It is not an individual as people may perceive Him as be. God is ONE. When you truly understand what is and who is God, then you have thought too much. For within the Universe and Super Universes, it is really just ONE Person, manifesting into so many forms and non-forms, you begin to wonder where you are in the One Person who is God. Don't wonder anymore, for God is there within you the whole time.



posted on Feb, 10 2014 @ 05:14 PM
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ctophil
reply to post by vethumanbeing
 


With the Peace and Love of God, greetings, Sister. The Spiritual Path is a constant struggle (and I might add it doesn't end after you go to Heaven, it gets harder, for God is infinite), but as long as you are in harmony with God (positive thinking, actions, love, honor, peace, grace, anything that is beautiful), it is not difficult. It is only difficult if you are swimming against the River of Life, thereby not keeping a constant meditation on ONENESS with God and still meandering through life with negativity, conflicts, prejudice, strife, and so forth. Think of the struggles of life like a dance. You must flow with the rhythm of the music. Otherwise, you are going to look clumsy and awful. You might even trip over your own toes and fall down on the floor. But as you get good at understanding God and how to flow in constant rhythm with the Universe, you will get closer and closer to a dance that is amazing to the eyes and even more spectacular to the Spirit. I have discussed this before...God is in you and you are in God.


This physicality is just another phase or learning platform for the individual soul; as you say it never gets easier because it is a quest to be one with the origin.
I am incarnated as god just as you are; trying to explain itself to itself in a 3 dimensional (limited) format. Why is this necessary? God started out as 1s and 0s and continues to define itself into sub-forums and with each one become denser; forming itself into civilization constructs. Its all good from my perspective, the human will/must evolve as ITS expression.

This system is not a static one, and is bombarded with chaos for a reason (growth of the system requires destructions), key is growth not a degredation of no matter what physical catasophies occure by the human or present environments; this system must progress as its the nature of the Absolute Unbounded Manifold to do so; to advance/understand itself no matter what and the negative will not prevail as its only a part of the equation a subtle driving force.

The human in perfect Gnosis will understand this; and once done, all things distracting to this understanding fall away and become inconsequencial; belief systems ie.(religions, political affiliations, cultural differences) fall away as you are in knowingness. I truely think that the whole point of the human is to GROK this understanding; unfortunately a power spin was put on Jesus and Mohammeds teachings and sent us backwards because of the vagueries and inconsistancies INHERANT of the Koran or biblical scriptures; the interpretations become/of a wild nature, twisted or forced to become truisms to suit a person or persons that claim to be theology scholars working for another hierachy altogether corrupt because these teachings are used to subdue or control the masses/not liberate them.

The idea of "Hell" as an eternal place is the perfect example. Its a 4th D construct for 'lost souls' is all; those brutally murdered, or commited suicide or had an untimely death/before they were supposed to; and are in confusion about their death or soul destiny is all; and it doesnt matter if they were in life devout believers of faith because those belief systems do not teach gnostism. Thankyou Ctophil for your comments.
edit on 10-2-2014 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 10 2014 @ 07:02 PM
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reply to post by Joecroft
 




By it, I assume you mean God…, but I only believe that I’m a part of God, and that I’m a son of the living Father. I don’t think my ego lol can handle anything else…


By it I mean the first spiritual being. You are part of God just like Jesus was, that's why he said the Father was greater than he, because he was only a part of God just like everyone else, he had just found himself and stood at the beginning just as he says everyone else can if they come to know themselves.



I think by “the beginning”, Jesus is talking about where we came from…the beginning is the Father so to speak. All those that are from the Father, are part of the eternal God.

But of course, the above verse has to weighed up along, side the verse below. Why does Jesus say we are Sons of the Living Father?


No offense to you brother, but I think you are changing the meaning of what Jesus said to fit your current thesis of Jesus being THE first spiritual being, him alone. The beginning in that verse is in the same context of John's Logos.

We are Sons of the Living Father just as Jesus was, we are the Son(s) of God, the One made into many IMO.



This is what I’m trying to explain. Jesus is a spiritual entity, that came first, from the Father IMO. Which means He’s the first son, hence The son of God. He entered the body of a man, at a certain point in history, and is the reason why Jesus refers to himself as “set apart”, right after telling the Pharisees, that everyone is a son of God, according to the Old Testament scripture.


There is only one Son, the image, we all share the image of God which is the physical universe. The Son is One with the Father but the Father is greater than the Son. The Father is the Spirit, the Son is the image that the Father sees through our eyes.

Jesus was "set apart" compared to those around him at the time because they were spiritually blind. He was "set apart" by the fact he was giving spiritual insight to the spiritually blind around him, that in no way means he's the only one to ever be "set apart" though, the Buddha is another example of one who was "set apart" by the Father by the fact he gave wisdom to those around him IMO.



I agree with what you said above, except I don’t believe we have been “reincarnated for eternity”….because this particular world universe, had a starting point. And like I was saying in my other post, different sons of the Father had different starting points as well.


I disagree, the universe is eternal by the fact that energy cannot be created or destroyed. What is the universe but one enormous ball of energy? Since the universe is nothing but energy, it couldn't have never been created nor can it ever be destroyed, meaning it has no start or end.



Something else to consider here, before you reply. The Gnostics must have been aware of what your describing in your posts here with me. But at some point, the Gnostics started believing, that Jesus was the Word of God, in their texts.

Now remember, these were Gnostic Christians, who were not going along with the standard Christian Doctrines, set forth by the early church. If what you’ve described, is the true gnosis, then how did that change/belief occur, within their texts…?


Jesus is the Word of God in the same way that we all are.

John says that in the beginning (the same one mentioned in saying 18 of the GOT) was the Word and that the Word was God, he also says that the Word was the light of all men. What is this light? The light of the world, something Jesus says he is and says we all are. The light is the image of God, the Son, the image of light that you are seeing right now in order to read this post.

The Gnostics did not change their theology or beliefs, I believe you are just seeing the concept of the Word in the wrong light. The Word is the light of all men, the image, the Son. We are all the light, we are all the Word of God, the Word (light) made flesh. We have both a body (flesh) and the image of light (Word) in front of us and within us.

I hope you can understand the concept I'm trying to convey. Once you reach gnosis, you 'realize ("on that day you will realize") that you are the Word of God, the image of God, and the Son of God who was there at the beginning, which is also where the end lies (infinity wrapping around on itself). We are all the One God experiencing itself from infinite perspectives for eternity.
edit on 2/10/2014 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 10 2014 @ 07:34 PM
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reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
 


And just to clarify on us being the eternal God experiencing itself from infinite perspectives for eternity, I will quote a passage from the bible.


Mark 12
32 “Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him.


"There is no other but him", meaning we are not some "other" that is separate from God, we ARE God experiencing itself.

God is the Father, the Spirit that gives life to everyone (the subconscious that regulates heart beat, breathing, etc.), the Son is the image that the Father creates through us and for us, the image that everything is made within.

We are the Son, the multiplicity of the One Father, yet their is still only One image (Son) that we all share, which is the Mother or physical universe that the image we possess creates.

The Father, Mother, and Son; the true Trinity that the church has hidden in plain sight (literally).



posted on Feb, 10 2014 @ 07:39 PM
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reply to post by ctophil
 

The Flesh represents the physical world (3rd Dimension), and the Spirit represents the higher, Spiritual World (5th Dimension and inside you). As Above, So below. As Within, So Without.
Nicodemus thought that he was already in the kingdom, based on his right heredity.
Jesus was saying that is not the kingdom that he was talking about.
The natural world has nothing to offer but the ordinary life and death cycle.
Real life, and eternal life doesn't come from anything that you can do in the material world.
God, through His spirit is what can make the change in a person's life that makes him a son of the kingdom.

In the second quote that Jesus made above, he was talking about salvation in itself. He is saying that don't look here or there for salvation, look within yourself as I have discussed before.
The kingdom is not something you can see coming over the horizon, rolling down the road but is right here among us.
Jesus, according to Luke, was saying this in preparation for the realization that though the kingdom of God is here, it is not the physical kingdom with people like the Herods and the high priests ruling it.
That material kingdom was soon to pass away and enter the dust bin of History.



posted on Feb, 10 2014 @ 11:28 PM
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reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
 





Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
No offense to you brother, but I think you are changing the meaning of what Jesus said to fit your current thesis of Jesus being THE first spiritual being, him alone. The beginning in that verse is in the same context of John's Logos.

We are Sons of the Living Father just as Jesus was, we are the Son(s) of God, the One made into many IMO.


“thesis”… lol

I don’t think I’m trying to change the meaning, I personally think the meaning is difficult to define.

But I agree with everything you said, in that “We are all Sons of the Living Father, just as Jesus was” and that we are all Sons of God, except that I think I was created from the Father, and that I didn’t exist prior to that. I think that’s the only key difference, in our thinking. I’ll explain further down what I mean.



Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
There is only one Son, the image, we all share the image of God which is the physical universe. The Son is One with the Father but the Father is greater than the Son. The Father is the Spirit, the Son is the image that the Father sees through our eyes.


But where are you deriving this information from…?

Is there a verse in the Gnostic texts, which shows this clearly…?



Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Jesus was "set apart" compared to those around him at the time because they were spiritually blind. He was "set apart" by the fact he was giving spiritual insight to the spiritually blind around him, that in no way means he's the only one to ever be "set apart" though, the Buddha is another example of one who was "set apart" by the Father by the fact he gave wisdom to those around him IMO.


What you’ve described makes perfect sense in way, except the verse in question, Jesus says he was sent into the world…? Which gives the idea, that He’s more than just a normal person.




Matthew 11:27 "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."



It states in the above verse, that the Son (Jesus) chooses to reveal Him. I don’t think it can be referring to us (sons) revealing the Father, because only the Father reveals himself to the son/sons.



Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
I disagree, the universe is eternal by the fact that energy cannot be created or destroyed. What is the universe but one enormous ball of energy? Since the universe is nothing but energy, it couldn't have never been created nor can it ever be destroyed, meaning it has no start or end.


Well, I agree, matter cannot be created or destroyed. But if I take some clay, and create a man out it, the substance of the clay existed eternally, but the man didn’t.

This is why I believe I had a starting point, when God created me, it’s only the stuff I’m made up of, which is eternal.

Or try looking at it this way, take information that’s on a disc, the substance and atoms that make up that disc, always existed, but what’s on the disk, the pictures, the sounds and the characters on the disc etc… didn’t always exist, those aspects had a starting point!



Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Jesus is the Word of God in the same way that we all are.

John says that in the beginning (the same one mentioned in saying 18 of the GOT) was the Word and that the Word was God, he also says that the Word was the light of all men. What is this light? The light of the world, something Jesus says he is and says we all are. The light is the image of God, the Son, the image of light that you are seeing right now in order to read this post.


The way I understand the light, is that it represents the truth. Jesus is the light because He brings the truth, others can be the light as well. Jesus says let your light shine before men, and by that He means the good news, the fruits of the spirit, and the truth about God etc…

Also, in Gnosticism, they often use the metaphor of walking in darkness, which is to be in ignorance of the knowledge of God, and it’s the light, which brings in the truth.

Anyway, I’m not sure where your getting this idea from, that light is the image of God…?




Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
The Gnostics did not change their theology or beliefs, I believe you are just seeing the concept of the Word in the wrong light. The Word is the light of all men, the image, the Son. We are all the light, we are all the Word of God, the Word (light) made flesh. We have both a body (flesh) and the image of light (Word) in front of us and within us.


But the same concept of the Word, in the Bible, is in the Gnostic texts, as well.

Here’s one example…





The Teachings of Silvanus

For the Tree of Life is Christ. He is Wisdom. For he is Wisdom; he is also the Word. He is the Life, the Power, and the Door. He is the Light, the Angel, and the Good Shepherd. Entrust yourself to this one who became all for your sake.




And, there’s actual verses in the Gnostic texts, stating that Jesus is The Son of God…And they don’t mean it, in the sense that He’s just a son, like us…

For example…

And…




From “The Gospel of Truth”
And the Spirit ran after him, hastening from waking him up. Having extended his hand to him who lay upon the ground, he set him up on his feet, for he had not yet risen. He gave them the means of knowing the knowledge of the Father and the revelation of his Son. For when they had seen him and had heard him, he granted them to taste him, and to smell him, and to touch the beloved Son.




And…




From “Melchizedek”
O glorious one, Jesus Christ! O chief commanders of the luminaries, you powers Armozel, Oroiael, Daveithe, Eleleth, and you man-of-light, immortal aeon Pigera-Adamas, and you good god of the beneficent worlds, Mirocheirothetou, through Jesus Christ, the Son of God!







From “The Gospel of Thomas”
(44) Jesus said, "Whoever blasphemes against the father will be forgiven, and whoever blasphemes against the son will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit will not be forgiven either on earth or in heaven."



And lastly, there’s this verse above from the Gospel of Thomas.

And you pretty much have to ask yourself the question…why is the line “whoever blasphemes against the son will be forgiven” even written in there…?

It would make more sense to write, “whoever blasphemes against all sons will be forgiven”, if what your saying is correct. Unless you have an explanation for it…?

I think the verse is written that way, because it’s referring to Jesus, being The Son of God, and not just a son of God.


- JC
edit on 11-2-2014 by Joecroft because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 12:29 AM
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reply to post by Joecroft
 




I don’t think I’m trying to change the meaning, I personally think the meaning is difficult to define.

But I agree with everything you said, in that “We are all Sons of the Living Father, just as Jesus was” and that we are all Sons of God, except that I think I was created from the Father, and that I didn’t exist prior to that. I think that’s the only key difference, in our thinking. I’ll explain further down what I mean.


I have an easy definition, it is the same beginning that John speaks of in his Logos.

"In the beginning..." = "Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning..."

Same beginning, same concept. Since the beginning is also where the end is, there is no technical beginning or end, it represents infinity or eternity.

So you do not believe you came into being before coming into being as Jesus says? What did Jesus mean by that in your opinion?



But where are you deriving this information from…?

Is there a verse in the Gnostic texts, which shows this clearly…?


Partly from John's Logos, partly from Paul, and partly from personal introspection. John says the Son is the Word, he also says that the Word is the light of men; Paul says that the Son is the image of the invisible God (Spirit), so the Word is the Son is the light is the image of the invisible God.

Since the image we see is pure light (Word), it is the Son (image) of the invisible God (Spirit). I believe God has revealed this to me.



What you’ve described makes perfect sense in way, except the verse in question, Jesus says he was sent into the world…? Which gives the idea, that He’s more than just a normal person.


It states in the above verse, that the Son (Jesus) chooses to reveal Him. I don’t think it can be referring to us (sons) revealing the Father, because only the Father reveals himself to the son/sons.


What you're not understanding is that we are all the Son of God, not just Jesus. The Son is the image and we are all the image of God. What you see, the image of light that constitutes your vision, is the Son of God, the Father is the invisible Spirit within you, that which gives you life.

The Son reveals him to those he chooses, meaning your mind (which is a part of the Son because your image [Son] is the "minds" eye) reveals this information through gnosis.



Well, I agree, matter cannot be created or destroyed. But if I take some clay, and create a man out it, the substance of the clay existed eternally, but the man didn’t.

This is why I believe I had a starting point, when God created me, it’s only the stuff I’m made up of, which is eternal.

Or try looking at it this way, take information that’s on a disc, the substance and atoms that make up that disc, always existed, but what’s on the disk, the pictures, the sounds and the characters on the disc etc… didn’t always exist, those aspects had a starting point!


Even Jesus' body had a beginning just like everyone else, we are no different from Jesus in that respect.

"Congratulations to the one who came into being before coming into being."

If you believe you were created when you came into being in your current body, then you believe you did not come into being before coming into being, therefore Jesus is not congratulating you, only those who have. You have existed before this incarnation, this is what Jesus is saying here.



The way I understand the light, is that it represents the truth. Jesus is the light because He brings the truth, others can the light as well. Jesus says let your light shine before men, and by that He means the good news, the fruits of the spirit, and the truth about God etc…

Also, in Gnosticism, they often use the metaphor of walking in darkness, which is to be in ignorance of the knowledge of God, and it’s the light, which brings in the truth.


Yes, we are the light as well and light does represent truth, but it also represents the image of light that you see because it too is the truth. Nothing is truer than what you see right now because it is the light and the light reveals all truth.

Yes, the light can also be darkness, a.k.a. ignorance. For example:


Luke 11
35 See to it, then, that the light within you is not darkness.


Everyone has the light within them, though most literally do not "see" it, which means the light that they see is darkness because they do not recognize it. The darkness means the light within us is ignorant of itself, hence it is referred to as darkness.



Anyway, I’m not sure where your getting this idea from, that light is the image of God…?


A combination of John's Logos which calls the Word (Son) the "light" of all men, Paul describing the Son (Word) as the "image" of the invisible God (Spirit), and my own introspection and realization of the "image" of "light" that I see.

The image of light that I see is the "light of the world" because the light within it is what gives form to the world around me, meaning it is the "image of the invisible God" or Son of God.



But the same concept of the Word, in the Bible, is in the Gnostic texts, as well.

Here’s one example…


And, there’s actual verses in the Gnostic texts, stating that Jesus is The Son of God…And they don’t mean it, in the sense that He’s just a son, like us…

For example…

And…


And…


And lastly, there’s this verse above from the Gospel of Thomas.


Is there a Gnostic writing that explicitly distinguishes the Son of God from a son of God?

Like I said earlier, Jesus is the Son of God in the same way that you are the Son of God, because you are the image of the invisible God just as Jesus is described in the bible.

What is the one thing that distinguishes you as an individual the most from your perspective? The image you see because you alone possess your perspective of the image that we all share, which is the universe around (within) us.

You are your image, you are your light, you are the image that you see therefore you are the Son of God just as Jesus was and still is. Jesus is in you and you are in Jesus, that is to mean that the image you see is within everyone because we all see the same universe around us. If we are standing beside one another and we look up at the moon, we are both seeing the same moon, we are both sharing the same image and that image is within us and is all that we know in that moment. We are what we see, which is the image (Son) of God.

I'm really trying to explain it the best I can.



And you pretty much have to ask yourself the question…why is the line “whoever blasphemes against the son will be forgiven” even written in there…?

It would make more sense to write, “whoever blasphemes against all sons will be forgiven”, if what your saying is correct. Unless you have an explanation for it…?

I think the verse is written that way, because it’s referring to Jesus, being The Son of God, and not just a son of God.


Because there is only one Son which is the image we all share. There is only one image from any one persons perspective hence "one" Son, and we all share that image.

Thhe Son is the image that we all share, it is the thing that is within every one of us. I am in you and you are in me because we both share the same image. My moon analogy should make it clear I hope.
edit on 2/11/2014 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 01:36 AM
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reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
 


And to clarify my position on the Son being the image we see, I'll quote some verses from the bible about what the Son is.


Colossians 1
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.


The numbers in brackets are the verses my commentary are referring to.

[15] The Son is the image that we see, the image we see is of the invisible Spirit within us that gives rise to this image of light. [16] In the image we see all things are created, including those in power because even they have the image that they see. All things are created through the image and for the image (us), the world we see through the image is for us. [17] The image we see is before all things and all things hold together within it. [18] The image we see is located within our minds or heads, meaning it is the head of our bodies (church/temple/physical universe). [19] The fullness of the universe dwells within the image we see, the fullness of God is the image that we see. There is no darkness within the light, only the light itself which is full and complete. [20] Everything is reconciled through the image. The last part is typical Paul though, twisting the meaning to fit the doctrine he was trying to push.

I do not like Paul, but he knew the truth but he distorted it for those in power at the time, Rome.


John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.


[1] In the beginning was the Son or image, the image of light was with and was God. [2] We were all with God in the beginning. [3] Through the image (Son) we see, all things are made and without our image nothing would be made that has been made. [4] In us is life, and that life is the light of all men. [5] The image we see has no darkness in it meaning the darkness has not overcome it.

The image we see is the light of all men because it is light itself. Everything is formed by the light we see meaning everything is made through it and for us.


Another passage from Paul that I agree with, though I do not agree with his doctrine:


Romans 1
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.


[19] God makes himself plain to us because he is the thing that gives us life, the Spirit. [20] God's invisible qualities are our invisible qualities such as emotions, thoughts, memories, imagination, etc., the things that come from the Spirit and not the physical. When you think of an elephant, the image you create within your mind is invisible yet it is clearly seen and is understood by the image that is made, so we are without excuse. [21] We all know ourselves and the life within us but we do not glorify it because our thoughts have become futile because of religious teachings, we have been blinded by them. [22] The religious claim to be wise, but in fact they believe in lies. [23] They have exchanged the glory of the light they see with the images that are within the light such as Jesus, the cross, or other personified gods. They worship what's within their image instead of the image itself, which is within all of us and is in fact the thing that gives form to those idols that they worship.
edit on 2/11/2014 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 01:49 PM
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Amen to the OP.

Faith Without Works Is Dead

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.



posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 02:08 PM
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reply to post by WhoWhatWhenWhere2420
 


Then Faith has nothing to do with Works, because the two have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

And as for infinity, it is an endless loop of meaningless energy creation, meaningless for us, seems someone needs it to be stuck in this, INFINITE LOOP,

IN- FINITE, as small and useless as any could ever be.

This God you are all trying to discuss is now dissolved into its own creation, and you REALLY do not understand this.

To make things as real as possible, the ultimate sacrifice had to be made, told by the Jesus story in code...

Make no mistake, "GOD" is no longer outside of creation, and so everything possible in a physical sense is now being finalized...

And much of the scattered pieces, are trying to rebuild this GOD, while using this planet as its primary power source.



posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 02:32 PM
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reply to post by ParasuvO
 


Obviously faith and works do have something to do with one another, otherwise faith would not be dead without works. If you do not show good works, your faith is dead, meaning faith and works rely on one another in some way according to the bible.

You have to have faith that good works will save you, and they will. If you do not have good works, you have no faith and the faith you do have is dead and worthless IMO.



posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 04:45 PM
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reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
 





Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Same beginning, same concept. Since the beginning is also where the end is, there is no technical beginning or end, it represents infinity or eternity.

So you do not believe you came into being before coming into being as Jesus says? What did Jesus mean by that in your opinion?



IMO the beginning is the point where I was created, from the eternal Father. The Coming into being, before coming into being, is talking about potential past lives, but even all those had a starting point. I believe God creates each individuals persons spirit or consciousness. All the lives you ever lived, is collectively the real you, i.e. your higher self, but your higher self, is not the Father. Just my opinion though.




Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Partly from John's Logos, partly from Paul, and partly from personal introspection. John says the Son is the Word, he also says that the Word is the light of men; Paul says that the Son is the image of the invisible God (Spirit), so the Word is the Son is the light is the image of the invisible God.

Since the image we see is pure light (Word), it is the Son (image) of the invisible God (Spirit). I believe God has revealed this to me.


The Word being the light of men, is referring to Jesus bringing the truth to men. Light is a metaphor for truth. I think that’s the general Christian interpretation of that verse.

But from Genesis, there is the overall view, that all men were created in Gods image. But that still wouldn’t fit the verse above, because it’s saying Jesus is The Son of the invisible God…?

Of course, where all sons as well, but where already in agreement on that aspect. But Jesus is being singled out for a reason, and He’s clearly described in the Gnostic texts as being The Son of God, either the true Gnosis got corrupted, or they somehow got it right!




Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
What you're not understanding is that we are all the Son of God, not just Jesus. The Son is the image and we are all the image of God. What you see, the image of light that constitutes your vision, is the Son of God, the Father is the invisible Spirit within you, that which gives you life.

The Son reveals him to those he chooses, meaning your mind (which is a part of the Son because your image [Son] is the "minds" eye) reveals this information through gnosis.


I completely understand the concept of what you’re trying to say. I looked at this issue a long time ago, but I couldn’t separate the two from each other, i.e. your view here, and my own. I eventually decided on the view that I now have, based on a number of factors, most of which came from verses in the Gnostic texts, and the book of John.




Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Is there a Gnostic writing that explicitly distinguishes the Son of God from a son of God?


Yeah, There is!!!



Melchizedek

O glorious one, JesusChrist! O chief commanders of the luminaries, you powers Armozel, Oroiael, Daveithe, Eleleth, and you man-of-light, immortal aeon Pigera-Adamas, and you good god of the beneficent worlds, Mirocheirothetou, through Jesus Christ, the Son of God! This is the one whom I proclaim, inasmuch as there has visited the One who truly exists, among those who exist [...] do(es) not exist, Abel Baruch - that you (sg.) might be given the knowledge of the truth [...], that he is from the race of the High-priest, which is above thousands of thousands, and myriads of myriads, of the aeons.






Melchizedek
Holy are you, Holy are you, Holy are you, Commander-in-chief of the All, Jesus Christ,
for ever and ever, Amen.






The Second Treatise of the Great Seth
Now these things I have presented to you – I am Jesus Christ, the Son of Man, who is exalted above the heavens - O perfect and incorruptible ones, because of the incorruptible and perfect mystery and the ineffable one.



If He's just a son like us, He shouldn't be exalted above the heavens…should he…?

And…this next verse is crucial…




The Tripartite Tractate
Just as the Father exists in the proper sense, the one before whom there was no one else, and the one apart from whom there is no other unbegotten one, so too the Son exists in the proper sense, the one before whom there was no other, and after whom no other son exists. Therefore, he is a firstborn and an only Son, "firstborn" because no one exists before him and "only Son" because no one is after him.



When you understand the meaning behind this verse above, and the rest of it, you will realize why Jesus refers to himself as the Vine in John 15!

And like I was saying earlier, Jesus is the highest limited form, of the Father, which is why He is the first Son of God!


- JC



posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 07:04 PM
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reply to post by Joecroft
 


Yeah man, I'm liking what you're saying. Jesus is the logos, the mediator between the invisible Father and visible man. And we are one in him from the foundation of the world, as John 17 shows.




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