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Real Ark of the Covenant of Wood NOT Gilded!

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posted on Feb, 6 2014 @ 09:08 PM
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reply to post by Aleister
 


Moses was told to bring two stone tablets, so I think its safe to say that both the original 10 Commandments AND the instructions for entering the Land were recorded on those tablets and stored in the wooden box for civil documentation.




posted on Feb, 6 2014 @ 09:20 PM
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BELIEVERpriest
reply to post by Aleister
 


Moses was told to bring two stone tablets, so I think its safe to say that both the original 10 Commandments AND the instructions for entering the Land were recorded on those tablets and stored in the wooden box for civil documentation.



Again, nice try, but nah. Again, the King James Bible report:


26 The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

27 And the Lord said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.

28 And he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.


(bold mine, not God's).

The covenant is the ten commandments, the ones Moses wrote down on the stone tablets. It's the only place that the words "ten commandments" are used in the entire episode. Those words weren't used about the original writing that Moses smashed to pieces out of anger (the fellow had a temper). And the two tables were in Moses' hand, not God's hand.

Then what's this about Moses not drinking water for 40 days? Isn't possible, he would have died.

EDIT: And you mentioned earlier that the first six verses were about rewriting, copying, the original ten commandments? Not in the King James version that I see. Here are the first six verses, nowhere in them is God writing anything, but seems to be the two of them just hanging out:


34 And the Lord said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.

2 And be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning unto mount Sinai, and present thyself there to me in the top of the mount.

3 And no man shall come up with thee, neither let any man be seen throughout all the mount; neither let the flocks nor herds feed before that mount.

4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the Lord had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.

5 And the Lord descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord.

6 And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,


edit on 6-2-2014 by Aleister because: (no reason given)

edit on 6-2-2014 by Aleister because: (no reason given)

edit on 6-2-2014 by Aleister because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 6 2014 @ 09:50 PM
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reply to post by Aleister
 


Exo 34:1 " Now the LORD said to Moses, “Cut out for yourself two stone tablets like the former ones, and I will write on the tablets the WORDS THAT WERE ON THE FORMER TABLETS WHICH YOU SHATTERED"

That pretty much says it all. God gave Moses a new verbatum copy of the Ten Commandments.

The rest of the chapter discusses the details of the Holy Days. Since the two tablets contained ALL of this info, the were the Tablets of the Covenant (including the Codex and Holy Day instructions).

Screw King James, I use New American Standard, but just in case you dont trust that source, see for yourself:

biblehub.com...

The exodus 34 account is a summary of what happened, not a minute-by-minute play-by-play, so if you read into it too much, you risk violating the context.

God wrote the commandments and Moses must have written the rest down.



posted on Feb, 6 2014 @ 10:02 PM
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reply to post by BELIEVERpriest
 


You keep moving the goalpost. It's as clear as the print on the page:


28 And he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.


The writing on the stones was in Moses' hand. The words of the covenant, the ten commandments, which come before in the chapter just as reported. And no, Tyndale's King James bible works just fine for this adventure up on the mountain.

The reason this is interesting is that most of the world's beliefs about the ten commandments is based on the assumption that the version that "everybody knows" are the real ten commandments. They are not, and were never called the ten commandments in the bible - the only set called with that name were on the two stone tablets containing, quote, "The words of the covenant, the ten commandments." which were put into the ark of the covenant (hence the name), written in Moses' hand.

So coming back to the topic of this thread, the ark of the covenant holds that covenant, which is described word-for-word in Exodus 34, and was written down by Moses on two stone tablets.

Told you that you can win a bar bet with this. I usually ask "What's the tenth commandment?" and then pull out the baby goat instruction.

edit on 6-2-2014 by Aleister because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 6 2014 @ 10:20 PM
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reply to post by Aleister
 


I cited a verse (Exodus 34:1) that indicated the second copy was the same as the copy that was shattered (word for word). The 10 Commandments are the 10 Commandments. There is no literal indication that they were altered in any way.

But by all means, dont let me that stop you from believe what you want to believe.



posted on Feb, 6 2014 @ 10:26 PM
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BELIEVERpriest
reply to post by Aleister
 


I cited a verse (Exodus 34:1) that indicated the second copy was the same as the copy that was shattered (word for word). The 10 Commandments are the 10 Commandments. There is no literal indication that they were altered in any way.

But by all means, dont let me that stop you from believe what you want to believe.


And the same to you. But please reread Exodus 34, for even though God said that in Verse 1, it wasn't the way things played out. Nothing was written down by Moses except the words that followed in the chapter, and the only thing on the tablets was Moses' handwriting.

And none of this is to imply I believe a word of it. The incident report in Exodus 34 lost me when it said Moses didn't drink water for 40 days. Isn't possible, unless God was giving it to him intravenously while he slept.



posted on Feb, 7 2014 @ 08:53 AM
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BELIEVERpriest
reply to post by Utnapisjtim
 


This is Moses 2nd mountain conference with God during the Exodus. First item on the agenda; replace the 10 Commandments which Moses shattered. Notice how God say "the words that where on the former tablets".


That would be 'replace the first covenant which was lit. broken as soon as it was introduced, with a new covenant which the Israelites actually fulfilled'. I believe God's intention with the first covenant (do not steal, kill etc) was to show the Israelites (and the rest of humanity) are inferiour to the divine, uncapable of the high moral standards of the divine, that they loved gold and poetry rather than common sense and morale, and therefore God gave them the second covenant, basically to invade Canaan and replace their religious practice with monotheism and Hebrew lithurgy and renounce the Canaanite religions of the Land, reflected in the new kingdom.


So basically Moses went to God to pettition the renewal of the Hebrew Covenant that the Hebrews almost threw away.


God replaced the first covenant which was designed to humiliate Israel and make them humbly repent, with a second covenant Israel would later prove to complete and fulfill and manage to observe and live by even to this day. Man is unable to live by God's high standards, we can only try and keep on trying, like a leading star and we all need forgiveness on a regular basis. The second covenant, gave Israel a means to succeed on a more down-to-Earth human level. God is demonstrating reverse psychology here.
edit on 7-2-2014 by Utnapisjtim because: some adjustments to make myself clearer



posted on Feb, 7 2014 @ 09:18 AM
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BELIEVERpriest
reply to post by Utnapisjtim
 


After reading all of Exodus 25&31, and Deut 10, I have to agree with you. There where two arks. One Ark was wood over lain with gold for the purpose of the Holy rituals, and the other ark was a wooden storage unit. The word "ark" simply means storage unit or capsule.


Indeed there were two boxes. It's as if God demonstrates: More wealth and greed, expecting to get everything for free, means you'd break the Law of God. But a simple life, humble observance of God's principles, trying and trying agan, and doing your share can lead you to salvation and forgiveness of sins. The stories of the two sets of ten commandments each, and the two arks demonstrate these principles. It's as if God reminds us who's our daddy, that we don't really deserve his grace, but that we can still aquire it through admitting we are sinners, but trying, and keeping high standards, will bring rewards in the long run.

The first covenant is demonstrating a divine, utopian mindset on a personal level. While the second covenant is more mundane and works on a collective, messianic (national) level.



posted on Feb, 7 2014 @ 09:29 AM
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BELIEVERpriest
reply to post by Aleister
 


Moses was told to bring two stone tablets, so I think its safe to say that both the original 10 Commandments AND the instructions for entering the Land were recorded on those tablets and stored in the wooden box for civil documentation.


I share much the same sentiments. I believe it is safe to assume that both arks with their given ingredients are examples of God's high standards and commands. It is possible to be children of God eventhough we are sinners. And it is possible to be a nation under God if we do our share in society and remain humbly true to our creator and patron. Atleast then there is a slim chance of receiving divine love and compassion.



posted on Feb, 7 2014 @ 10:25 AM
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Aleister
And none of this is to imply I believe a word of it. The incident report in Exodus 34 lost me when it said Moses didn't drink water for 40 days. Isn't possible, unless God was giving it to him intravenously while he slept.


Hehe. In most Semittic languages, like Hebrew and Arabic for instance, the number 40 means much or many. Israel didn't spend '40 years' in the desert, they spent 'long time' on their journey to the Promised Land. Or in NT, Jesus is said to have spent '40 days' fasting in the desert, again 'long time'. In the Koran the righteous will be greeted by '40 virgins', again, 'many virgins', or in the story of Ali Baba and his 'forty thieves', he lead a 'large pack of thieves'. It can be likened with Germanic use of dozens, hundreds or thousands to express abundance or vastness in time and amounts &cetera.



posted on Feb, 7 2014 @ 11:01 AM
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i would suggest you read further in the old testament.
you are right, the ark was stolen at least one time that i know of, by the Philistines.

read 1 Sam 5 and 1 Sam 6 in the kjv
see what happened to the first of the five cities and then to the second.




1 Sam5:6
6 But the hand of the Lord was heavy upon them of Ashdod, and he destroyed them, and smote them with emerods, even Ashdod and the coasts thereof.





1 Sam 5:9
9 And it was so, that, after they had carried it about, the hand of the Lord was against the city with a very great destruction: and he smote the men of the city, both small and great, and they had emerods in their secret parts.




Emerods
Em´er`ods n. pl. 1.Hemorrhoids; piles; tumors; boils. Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, published 1913 by C. & G. Merriam Co.Text


notice the first two definitions .Hemorrhoids; piles, poor fellas, i guess that taught them to be a pain in the back side. the bible says that any one that touches, has possession, watches over the ark that the lord doesn't favor. bad things happen to them. why would God do that, if indeed if was a decoy.

iirc the reason they say this is there are other passages that use the same hebrew words that translate to hinder parts. i'd have to go look all that up but i'm not gonna, you can if you like.

there are also scholars that think this is one of the first recorded out breaks of the bubonic plague. that would explain this.



1 Sam 6:4
4 Then said they, What shall be the trespass offering which we shall return to him? They answered, Five golden emerods, and five golden mice, according to the number of the lords of the Philistines: for one plague was on you all, and on your lords.


i also believe that the first set of table of stone were placed in the ark, i seem to recall that in the description of what was placed in the ark.



1 Kings 8:9 (KJV)
9 There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone, which Moses put there at Horeb, when the Lord made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt.


now as far as i know, no one knows for sure sure what a table of stone would look like. i think all the art and depictions used in the movies are mans idea. it plainly says two tables of stone





edit on 7-2-2014 by hounddoghowlie because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 7 2014 @ 11:33 AM
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reply to post by hounddoghowlie
 


Hahaha. Thanks mate, I laughed so good thinking about the Ark being some kind of technology designed to be a pain in the ****


On the other hand, the theory about it being some kind of biological weapon, perhaps containing living plague bacteria, I've never heared about before, and it makes sense, atleast in the story leading to a handful of golden rodents being added to the ark inventory.

There are a few other references to the ark being stolen both inside and outside the Bible, other than the story with the Philistines stealing it and later returning it. The Assyrians supposedly took it and destroyed it, the Babylonians took and destroyed it and the Romans took it during the First Jewish-Roman War when they destroyed the Temple, and since then the Jews have been in diaspora and the ark has been missing since. Also the Jewish community of Ethiopia claim to have it stored in a chapel at Axum:


To Ethiopian Christians and Jews, the location of the Ark of the Covenant is no mystery. According to the Ethiopian royal chronicles, the Ark left Jerusalem much earlier than generally thought - in the days of King Solomon - and went to Ethiopia by the hand of Menelik, the son of King Solomon and the Queen of Sheba. (The Bible tells of a meeting between the monarchs (1 Kings 10), but not a marriage or Prince Menelik.)

The Ark was then kept safe in Ethiopia over the millenia, carefully hidden during wars, and today it is enshrined in a special treasury next to the Church of St. Mary of Zion in Axum, Ethiopia.
www.sacred-destinations.com...



posted on Feb, 7 2014 @ 12:18 PM
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reply to post by Utnapisjtim
 

When I think of the Ark of the Covenant I do not think of any object at all.
I interpret it as 'the light which is seen'.



posted on Feb, 7 2014 @ 02:58 PM
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Itisnowagain
reply to post by Utnapisjtim
 

When I think of the Ark of the Covenant I do not think of any object at all.
I interpret it as 'the light which is seen'.


Could you please explain why you see it this way?



posted on Feb, 7 2014 @ 05:46 PM
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reply to post by Utnapisjtim
 


A couple of things you've missed:

1) "Sinai" and "Horeb" are two names for the same mountain.

2) Nowhere in any of the quotes you've listed are we told that Moses took an ark up the mountain. In every single case, Scripture says Moses went up the mountain, then came down with the tablets. Not once does it say that those tablets were brought down in an ark. In fact:

- at first, the ark wasn't built - so Moses didn't put the tablets in it until it was complete: (Exodus 25:16, "when the Ark is finished, place inside it the stone tablets...")

- When the first set of tablets were destroyed, Moses was told to bring another set of (blank) tablets up the mountain (Deuteronomy 10:1) This passage, though, is a RETELLING of what has occurred earlier - so Moses says that "I Made the ark out of Acacia wood, and chiseled two stone tablets" etc. etc. - this doesn't necessarily mean that Moses literally crafted a second ark himself, just that he was responsible for the process. This phrasing is common in Jewish literature.

...again, you're looking for something in the text that simply isn't there.



posted on Feb, 7 2014 @ 06:09 PM
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Awen24
reply to post by Utnapisjtim
 


A couple of things you've missed:

1) "Sinai" and "Horeb" are two names for the same mountain.


Perhaps your pastor says that, but the atlas and Exodus says otherwise. There are actually four names for these two mountains: Mountain of God, Mt. Horeb, Mt. Sinai and Mt. Paran.

Deuteronomy 33:2 He said: “The Lord came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran....


2) Nowhere in any of the quotes you've listed are we told that Moses took an ark up the mountain. In every single case, Scripture says Moses went up the mountain, then came down with the tablets. Not once does it say that those tablets were brought down in an ark. In fact:


Reading it again, I see you are right that it doesn't say Moses actually carried the ark up the mountain. I must have assumed he did. But just believe me when I say this: There were indeed two arks, one made with gold, another smaller one of simple wood construction. The wooden ark is made by Moses before he entered Mount Horeb, the golden one was made after Moses had come down.

Exodus 10:10 At that time the Lord said to me, “Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones and come up to me on the mountain. Also make a wooden ark. 2 I will write on the tablets the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke. Then you are to put them in the ark.” 3 So I made the ark out of acacia wood and chiseled out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I went up on the mountain with the two tablets in my hands.


- at first, the ark wasn't built - so Moses didn't put the tablets in it until it was complete: (Exodus 25:16, "when the Ark is finished, place inside it the stone tablets...")


The goden ark contains the broken slates, the wooden ark contains the unbroken slates and the scroll of the covenant


- When the first set of tablets were destroyed, Moses was told to bring another set of (blank) tablets up the mountain (Deuteronomy 10:1) This passage, though, is a RETELLING of what has occurred earlier - so Moses says that "I Made the ark out of Acacia wood, and chiseled two stone tablets" etc. etc. - this doesn't necessarily mean that Moses literally crafted a second ark himself, just that he was responsible for the process. This phrasing is common in Jewish literature.


What is even more common in Hebrew literature and customs is that things always happen twice or comes in two complimentary versions. The principle of the two witnesses, Heaven and Earth, Sun and the Moon and so on. There are two different names of God: Elohim, the creator, and YHWH the lord. There are two creation stories, one centered around the creative work of the former (Genesis 1), and the second attributed to the latter about the creation of Adam (Genesis 2). There were two Hebrew kingdoms: Israel and Judah. I could go on forever. If you haven't already noticed this, you have a great time ahead of you.


...again, you're looking for something in the text that simply isn't there.


No I'm not

edit on 7-2-2014 by Utnapisjtim because: Ate a rock

edit on 7-2-2014 by Utnapisjtim because: Added the four names of the mountains



posted on Feb, 8 2014 @ 12:57 AM
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Utnapisjtim

Awen24
reply to post by Utnapisjtim
 


A couple of things you've missed:

1) "Sinai" and "Horeb" are two names for the same mountain.


Perhaps your pastor says that, but the atlas and Exodus says otherwise. There are actually four names for these two mountains: Mountain of God, Mt. Horeb, Mt. Sinai and Mt. Paran.



Actually, this one is more of a rabbit warren than I've stated.
I should clarify. I don't believe that Mount Sinai is in the Sinai Peninsula - I believe it's in Saudi Arabia, north of Midian. The Saudis call this mountain "Jabal Al-Lawz" (google it).

As for the verse you quoted from Deuteronomy - that too is a very common Jewish form of literary expression - saying the same thing twice in two different ways. Sinai = Horeb.



posted on Feb, 8 2014 @ 09:51 AM
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Awen24

Utnapisjtim

Awen24
reply to post by Utnapisjtim
 


A couple of things you've missed:

1) "Sinai" and "Horeb" are two names for the same mountain.


Perhaps your pastor says that, but the atlas and Exodus says otherwise. There are actually four names for these two mountains: Mountain of God, Mt. Horeb, Mt. Sinai and Mt. Paran.



Actually, this one is more of a rabbit warren than I've stated.
I should clarify. I don't believe that Mount Sinai is in the Sinai Peninsula - I believe it's in Saudi Arabia, north of Midian. The Saudis call this mountain "Jabal Al-Lawz" (google it).


There are many mountains with claims of being the Mountain of God. I am not trying to find these mountains' locations, just to show that there is more to the story than is normally told.


As for the verse you quoted from Deuteronomy - that too is a very common Jewish form of literary expression - saying the same thing twice in two different ways. Sinai = Horeb.


Indeed, but it's not just different names, but different things. It takes two to tango, this is according to Jesus a fundamental principle in Judaism:

Deuteronomy 19:15 [...] at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

Thus we see how there are two biblical Jewish languages, Aramaic and Hebrew, two kingdoms, Judah and Israel, two creation stories and so on. It's not as simple as to merely come up with another name. Genesis 1 (the Priestly source) belongs to the theology of the kingdom of Israel, while Genesis 2, the Jahvist source is related to the theology of the kingdom of Judah. One doctrine states that Jahveh and Elohim are actually two gods, while the true God is the Love or Truth that exists between them.
edit on 8-2-2014 by Utnapisjtim because: Added the last sentance



posted on Feb, 8 2014 @ 09:57 AM
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reply to post by hounddoghowlie
 



Utnapisjtim
reply to post by hounddoghowlie
 


atleast in the story leading to a handful of golden rodents being added to the ark inventory.


Wasn't it frogs and not mice?
edit on 8-2-2014 by Utnapisjtim because: Added "reply to"



posted on Feb, 8 2014 @ 10:32 AM
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I'm willing to be open minded about this and do some research on my own.

In my opinion it's a little like Genesis 1 where God makes man and then later makes Adam and Eve. Most people gloss over that first creation and then are left with no explanation for whom Cain was afraid of when he was banished.

Likewise, this two ark theory makes sense for a people who lived in tents. Thieves would have been a constant threat.

Questions, though, what was in the tabernacle? The real one or the fake one? Both? Is that why only one man was allowed in the inner sanctum?



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