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UN to Vatican: Immediately Remove All Known And Suspected Child Abusers From The Clergy

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posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 03:18 PM
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webedoomed
but what about all the sex in prisons? Are all of those individuals bisexual and gay/lesbo? Is it not circumstantial?

I posted the scientific information on pedophilia. I"m reporting the findings of studies.
As to the prison population ... adult on adult sex ... I am not 'up' on that.
that would make a good discussion thread ...

Ernie Allen, president of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, said he didn't see the Catholic Church as a hotbed of pedophilia activity. The percentage of pedophiles in the Catholic church is not any higher than the general public.
American Magazine - Celibacy Does Not Cause Pedophilia

30 percent of abuse takes place within families, yet few sane people point to marriage as a cause of child abuse. When schoolteachers abuse children, few sane people say that teaching leads to pedophilia. Many widows and widowers, not to mention some single men and women, are celibate. No one suspects them of pedophilia.


Newsweek - Priests Commit No More Abuse than Other Males




posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 03:19 PM
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FlyersFan

Utnapisjtim
Priests raping children is not about sexual orientation.

Pedophilia is a sexual orientation. It causes adults to rape children.


Poor poor pedos, ha? There is no sexual orientation that causes people to commit rape. A rapist is a rapist. Raping people no matter what age or sex has nothing to do with sex, it's about control and power. It's rape and must be dealt with. Church doctrine and silentium, combined with celibacy turns the Church into a utopia for rapists and pedophiles.

As for you claiming NT orders celibacy. NOT true. Paul, who was the only apostle that was unmarried, didn't seem to get laid, so therefore he said stupid things like women ar inferior to men and that being unmarried is a good thing. It was his way of dealing with the fact that he couldn't get laid, which was probably because he was a biggot dork around women.

This whole thing just makes me sick so this is my last response in this thread. Sorry, I'll just end up saying things I don't really mean out of frustration.



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 03:22 PM
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webedoomed
There is no clear indication that these individuals are pedophiles, rather than rapists exploiting their position due to circumstances.

The 'clear' indication is that they are adults sexually attracted to children. That's a pedophile.
They are predators. They take jobs that give them easy access to children.
Teachers. Ministers. Priests. Doctors. They stalk. They prey. It's what they do.
They were pedophiles before they became priests or teachers or ministers ....
There is no indication that these individuals changed orientation because of 'celibacy'.
And the studies on pedophilia - which i provided - show it's an orientation .. not a 'choice'.



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 03:25 PM
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adjensen
reply to post by UxoriousMagnus
 



the info I find says that in the protestant church....it tends to not be the "clergy" but church volunteers that are the criminals.....child molesters......this doesn't make it right but

You might want to have a look at this: stopbaptistpredators.org - Shining light on Baptist clergy sex abuse


Well....this is equally disgusting .... thanks for the link. I am not sure what is more disturbing....that there is rampant sexual abuse in all churches or that there is so much of it that the churches have to carry special insurance for it....

this is why I home church.....

Jesus must be so proud of how His church has come along.....thousands of years of wars and sexual abuse of the innocent.



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 03:27 PM
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Utnapisjtim
Poor poor pedos, ha?

Oh don't even try to go there. No one said to feel sorry for pedophiles. Get real.

There is no sexual orientation that causes people to commit rape.

I didn't say there was. Pedophilia is a sexual orientation where adults are sexually attracted to children. It's their choice to act out on their orientation just as it's the choice of a homosexual to act out on his/her orientation, or a heterosexual to act out on his/her orientation. The acting out on the orientation is a choice .. the orientation itself is NOT.

As for you claiming NT orders celibacy. NOT true.

As I said .. you are welcome to think that if you wish. You are welcome to your interpretation just as the Catholics are welcome to theirs. But your statement that Catholic celibacy is 'sacrilegious' is funny .... Catholics would find many of your beliefs to be sacrilegious as well.

This isn't the forum for a scripture spitting contest.



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 03:40 PM
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FlyersFan

The 'clear' indication is that they are adults sexually attracted to children. That's a pedophile.


That's just not correct, and I'm pretty sure you know better. Pedophilia is the preferential attraction to children.


They are predators. They take jobs that give them easy access to children.
Teachers. Ministers. Priests. Doctors. They stalk. They prey. It's what they do.


While it's true that predators seek positions of authority to exploit others, it is pure assumption that every case involves individuals who pick these fields simply to exploit.

The exception from this list is catholic priests. That's because they are required to be celibate. This gives reason towards the circumstantial argument. I briefly looked into sexual relations in prison. You may find it interesting to study it. It seems many, if not most who engage in sex in prison consider their selves heterosexual.


They were pedophiles before they became priests or teachers or ministers ....


The first assumption is that they were all pedophiles, period. The second assumption is that they had this inclination before they choose their field. Again, priests shouldn't be lumped together with teachers. There is similarities, as in authority over children, but differences, in that teachers may have sexual relations with adults, and marry.


There is no indication that these individuals changed orientation because of 'celibacy'.
And the studies on pedophilia - which i provided - show it's an orientation .. not a 'choice'.


I didn't say changed "sexual orientation", I said that their set of circumstances may have caused them to overlook their preference out of desperation. There is a difference.
edit on 5-2-2014 by webedoomed because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 03:44 PM
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reply to post by webedoomed
 


I actually seriously very nearly entered the priesthood mussel in the early 1990s when the sex abuse scandal was raging in New Zealand.

I talked about it with several priests and even our local bishop. I want to make it clear that I am not, capital NOT making excuses or supporting their actions, but from a human viewpoint their explanation on the issue does make sense.

I was told that family tradition with Catholic families usually being quite large was that one son would enter the priesthood. It was usually the youngest son in most cases. So, these men had not really chosen, or been called into the priesthood but more forced into it through cultural and social pressure. What's more, they went straight into the seminary from school, so they had no time to even think about sex and sexuality. (Remember, in the old days, before the 1960's especially, sex was a totally taboo subject)

So, these men had never consciously signed up for a life of celibacy, they were kind of forced into it. There are other priests who have broken the vow of celibacy with adults, but many abused children because they were accessible. Basically, most of the men who were doing this never really wanted to be a priest anyway. As I said before, none of this makes it right, but the understanding that these people are men who's heart's and minds are not dedicated to their vocation explains the recipe for disaster.

So, the church way back then had already seen there was a huge problem with rogue priests and that a large part of it was because of the way priests were selected in the first place. As part of my interview process, celibacy was brought up and I was asked if I had considered the full implications of it because the church was taking it very seriously with new candidates in the priesthood I.e. if there was the slightest doubt about celibacy, don't bother, we don't need any more problems than we have already with this issue.

So, internally the church knows all too well of the problem and it is a generational / still cultural in parts of the world thing. The whole idea of the priesthood is that men are called to it and knowingly walk away from a life that includes sex among other things. The best priests I ever met were the ones who were 'late' vocations I.e. they had liveda bit of life first, just like Jesus apostles and had decided for themselves that they weren't missing out on anything with sex.



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 03:55 PM
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reply to post by markosity1973
 


Makes sense. I'm on the fence about individuals primary attraction being unchangeable, but can definitely tell circumstances should be able to allow people to make alternative choices from their standard preference.

There is no good reason to think that sexuality is set in stone, and we prefer one way or another in all circumstances. Look at ancient Rome. It was a social norm for a man to take a boy of age 12 or 13, and have his way with his rear, in exchange for teaching him trade until he was fully mature. Social norm.

There's no way reasonable individuals can say sexual range is set in stone, and so limited.



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 03:56 PM
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reply to post by UxoriousMagnus
 


You're missing the point.

Pedophiles are not unique to the Catholic church, but just because there are also Protestant pedophile pastors, that doesn't mean that they are limited to the church.

They are in the Boy Scouts: Boy Scout files reveal long history of child sex abuse cases

They are in reform schools: 55 Bodies Exhumed From Closed Reform School

They are in schools: Has Media Ignored Sex Abuse In School?

They are in sports: Youth Baseball Coach Was A “Classic” Pedophile

I could go on, but hopefully you see the point. Pedophies are opportunists and can be found within every occupation that puts people in contact with children.



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 04:02 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


no...I got it and conceded and even thanked you for the link and the info...



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 04:21 PM
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reply to post by eggman90
 


I've never been a catholic or ever been to a catholic service.
Why do priests get so much alone time with kids? Why don't parents just bring the kids to church, and leave with them?

Even when I did go to church (around elementary school) and to lock ins, the pastors and volunteers were always with large groups of kids, never alone. That was baptist of course, I know, very different.



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 04:23 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


It does seem to be an epidemic only in catholic churches though, and I really believe it has to do with the celibacy and so much time alone with children. Of course the prospects of a position of power alone with children could very well draw pedophiles to the church in a way that the other churches do not.



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 04:56 PM
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FlyersFan

webedoomed
There is no clear indication that these individuals are pedophiles, rather than rapists exploiting their position due to circumstances.

The 'clear' indication is that they are adults sexually attracted to children. That's a pedophile.
They are predators. They take jobs that give them easy access to children.
Teachers. Ministers. Priests. Doctors. They stalk. They prey. It's what they do.
They were pedophiles before they became priests or teachers or ministers ....
There is no indication that these individuals changed orientation because of 'celibacy'.
And the studies on pedophilia - which i provided - show it's an orientation .. not a 'choice'.

'If I may interrupt, they were not born pedophiles, the became pedophiles in their childhood, all pedophiles were themselves abused as children. Your first sexual experience, becomes your orientation !

edit on 5-2-2014 by Ove38 because: text fix



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 05:09 PM
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webedoomed
That's just not correct, and I'm pretty sure you know better. Pedophilia is the preferential attraction to children.

That's like saying a heterosexual has a preferential attraction to the opposite sex, which implies that they are attracted to the same sex and would be satisfied with boinking them. But you know it doesn't work that way. So ... I"m pretty sure you know better.

it is pure assumption that every case involves individuals who pick these fields simply to exploit.

Pedophiles are predators. They find places .. find jobs ... find situations to prey on their victims.
Many DO pick fields in order to exploit children ... be it teachers or priests or ministers or doctors ...

The first assumption is that they were all pedophiles, period. The second assumption is that they had this inclination before they choose their field.


Again, priests shouldn't be lumped together with teachers. There is similarities, as in authority over children, but differences, in that teachers may have sexual relations with adults, and marry.

Again, the same percentage of priests are pedophiles as that of teachers. If celibacy made people into pedophiles, then the celibate priests would have a much higher rate of pedophilia. But the fact is, it's the same rate as the general public. So yes, we can lump priests in with everyone else .. because they have the same pedophilia rate as the general population. (stats already given)


I said that their set of circumstances may have caused them to overlook their preference out of desperation.

That doesn't fly because priests aren't 'desperate' for sex. All they have to do is go out and get it. Adult sex is available to them at any time. I personally know two priests who left the priesthood ... one to marry a woman he met and another because he had a baby with the church secretary. Both were had vows of celibacy. Both found adult sexual partners just fine.



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 05:11 PM
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How about the UN starts by immediately removing all known child abusers from the UN, then they can talk badly about the Church.

I'm not a Catholic by any stretch of the imagination, but many of the regimes represented at the UN have done far worse to children than the Catholic Church ever could.

Clean your own house, before you demand that others clean theirs.



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 05:11 PM
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Ove38
they were not born pedophiles, the became pedophiles in their childhood, all pedophiles were themselves abused as children.

I gave information from studies showing that people with pedophilia orientation are hardwired that way. I"m sure you can find studies prior to those that say otherwise. But the fact is ... it's their orientation.

Your first sexual experience, becomes your orientation

Um ... no. I was very much heterosexually oriented way before I had my first sexual experience
- (which was heterosexual)

edit on 2/5/2014 by FlyersFan because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 05:21 PM
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reply to post by GogoVicMorrow
 



It does seem to be an epidemic only in catholic churches though

For about the millionth time, no, it is not "an epidemic only in catholic churches", you're just hearing about what is happening in Catholic churches more than you are hearing about the exact same behaviour in Protestant churches, in schools, in gymnasiums and in every environment when you'll find children. If you go look for the information, rather than just be fed it from the MSM, you'll see that.

At the height of the crisis (which was in the 1980s,) the percentage of pedophiles among Catholic clergy was the same as it is in the general population, and it is far lower than that now, as accused priests have been removed from the role. And I can tell you that they take things very seriously -- as a Confirmation teacher, I was required to go through a very detailed background check, and the Archbishop of St. Paul / Minneapolis is currently on leave because someone claimed that he had "touched his butt" during a group photograph at the Cathedral and he can't participate in the church or do his job until both the police and the church investigate it and clear him of any wrong doing.



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 05:26 PM
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FlyersFan

That's like saying a heterosexual has a preferential attraction to the opposite sex, which implies that they are attracted to the same sex and would be satisfied with boinking them. But you know it doesn't work that way. So ... I"m pretty sure you know better.


I don't think most people explore their sexual options enough to know what they would or wouldn't like. They do seem to stay with thier preference. Perhaps it's best to substitute the word, "preference" with primary, as it seems to be comonly used when referring to sexuality. I said that I was pretty sure you should know better, because you're a psychoanalyst, correct? You should have been taught this.



Pedophilia or paedophilia is a psychiatric disorder in which an adult or older adolescent experiences a primary or exclusive sexual attraction to prepubescent children, generally age 11 years or younger, though specific diagnostic criteria for the disorder extends the cut-off point for prepubescence to age 13.


Pedophilia




Again, the same percentage of priests are pedophiles as that of teachers. If celibacy made people into pedophiles, then the celibate priests would have a much higher rate of pedophilia. But the fact is, it's the same rate as the general public. So yes, we can lump priests in with everyone else .. because they have the same pedophilia rate as the general population. (stats already given)


I think you're referring to this post. They are not measuring the same two things. One mentions a belief that the US has a general rate of pedophilia of 4%. The second mentions the number of priests who have allegations of child abuse divided by the total number of priests. How many priests have yet to be discovered of their acts of rape? One is an extrapolation based on criteria we don't know (mere belief, is mentioned), the other is assumption based on allegations. They are incomparable. Another thing to consider is that this wasn't said of teachers, but the general population. If the rate was the same between the general population, and priests, how does your reasoning stand that pedophiles would seek out positions of authority, such as priesthood? It doesn't jive. I challenge the beilef that 4% of the general population is a pedophile. Data is needed to back up this claim.


That doesn't fly because priests aren't 'desperate' for sex. All they have to do is go out and get it. Adult sex is available to them at any time. I personally know two priests who left the priesthood ... one to marry a woman he met and another because he had a baby with the church secretary. Both were had vows of celibacy. Both found adult sexual partners just fine.


I think a little imagination is all that's needed here. You're a priest, and are known as such. You spend a good chunk of your time around children. When you are left to your own doings, you are still known within your community as a priest. You have very few other options for sex, save perhaps a prostitute who doesn't care. Now, this would of course depend on the size of the city. I can't see this being an issue in big cities. Rural areas? I doubt it would be as easy.
edit on 5-2-2014 by webedoomed because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 05:39 PM
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Ove38
Your first sexual experience, becomes your orientation !

edit on 5-2-2014 by Ove38 because: text fix


Interesting premise, and I'm not disputing it, but would you say the same about gays?



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 06:37 PM
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reply to post by webedoomed
 

The whole sexuality thing and how we become how we are is not as simple as you would think.

Here is my two cents worth, having spent a lot of time researching the subject and talking to quite a few experts on the subject one on one.

Firstly, sexuality is not black and white i.e. There are not just straight people and gays. It is more of a sliding scale with bisexual people in the middle (i.e. equal attraction to both males and females) At the far ends of the scale are the heterosexuals whom are only ever attracted to the opposite sex and homosexuals whom are only attracted to the same sex. People do not get to choose their sexuality unless they are a true bisexual. If you ever talk to these people, they will tell you that they are attracted to a persons energy rather than their gender.

First experiences have nothing to do with it either- there are a number of men who have been sexually abused by men as children that are straight for instance.

Pedophilia is another form of sexuality in that it is specific to children and from what I have learned, yes it can be a hardwired sexuality like hetero/homosexuality. This of course does not make it right though.

Then there is opportunistic sexuality - for example, put a bunch of straight men into a prison for and they will start having male to male sex because that is their only option. It's no secret that male rape is a big problem in the prison system. It does not mean that their sexuality has changed, indeed when they leave prison the ones who are straight will go straight after a female even if they have had male to male sex while inside. What they are doing in prison is simply acting upon animal urges and getting their end off whatever way they can.

The same goes for some (I believe most actually) of the priests. They are abusing children not because they are necessarily pedophiles, but because it is an opportunistic thing. Once again, it does not make it right and these men do need to face the consequences of the law and exit the priesthood but it does explain why they might be doing it.





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