Every time I ask: do you believe literally? I get willful moral and intellectual dissonance.

Every time I ask: do you believe literally? I get willful moral and intellectual dissonance.

Please see how this clip ends.

www.youtube.com...

I believe that Jesus believed, is what that last gent speaking in this clip uses as his reason for believing the unbelievable story of Lot. He is forgiving a God who is obviously doing evil just because he can blame his poor moral position on Jesus.

This type of willful moral and intellectual dissonance is what I get from many Christians who will forgive their God for things they condemn people for doing.

If morals are not the most important issue for God or Christians, then what is the most important aspect of religion to you as a believer?

Are literalists idol worshipers? The last speaker seems to be one as he ignores his own true beliefs to follow his idol, Jesus even as he doubts the morality and reality of the story of Lot.

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am

Duplicate thread.
You've done this one already.

Greatest I am


If morals are not the most important issue for God or Christians, then what is the most important aspect of religion to you as a believer?

Do onto others, as you would yourself.

everything in the bible, all the rules, all the morality is summed up right there.

justreleased

can you explain to me why "god" allows so many tragedies? Why for example would he allow the 9/11 attack?

Because if God controlled every single aspect of every single thing that every single person does, there would be no free will involved. This is the base of the answer.

graphuto

justreleased

can you explain to me why "god" allows so many tragedies? Why for example would he allow the 9/11 attack?

Because if God controlled every single aspect of every single thing that every single person does, there would be no free will involved. This is the base of the answer.

I always go to the following,

If your a parent, do you want your child to do whats right because you control every aspect of their life? Anytime they get into trouble you rush in and fix the problem.

Or do you want the child to do whats right because you gave them the tools to make the right choices on their own, and than sit there and be there if they ever screw up bad enough to need you.

justreleased
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

I don't have sound on the public computer I am currently using. I could watch the video without sound but....

OP you are obviously a religious person can you explain to me why "god" allows so many tragedies? Why for example would he allow the 9/11 attack?

Curious.

The problem with this question is that it's duplicitous.
You're happy for God to stop what you perceive as a "big" evil, but would you be happy if he stepped in every time you decided to visit that porn site in your bookmarks?

The problem here is one of perspective. Our perspective isn't God's perspective.
Free will obviously plays a role, as others have pointed out, but the real point is this - that God has already answered the question, and stated that because of mankind's rebellion, he "gave them over to a depraved mind, to do things that should not be done."

God has intervened in our history and given us an "out", in Jesus Christ. The time will come when He WILL stop all of this evil... but right now? He's showing patience - because when He does come, He'll come as a Righteous Judge... and He'll judge not just the 9/11 bombers, but the kid with the porn links in his bookmarks and the little old man who yells at the kids that step on his lawn.

So the question then becomes a far simpler one:

What are you going to do about the problem at the heart of EVERY man? "Your sins have separated you from God", the Bible says. That's the problem... and God has given the solution. Jesus Christ took the punishment due for that sin on Himself... so if you want to solve the problem of sin, there's only one way to do so.

The English words moral, morals, morality, immoral, immoralities none of these words even appear in the English Bible used for 300 years before any other translation of the Bible in English was made. And even in them very few have these words to date and if they do you can't get enough info to determine what it means except that it refers to sexual activity.

So what does anyone mean by Moral, Morals, Morality, Immoral, Immorality, immoralities etc etc?

Are we to use a dictionary understanding of these?

Should the Dictionary understanding of these be practiced?

DISRAELI
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Duplicate thread.
You've done this one already.

Damned if you are not correct. My bad.

Regards
DL

benrl

Greatest I am


If morals are not the most important issue for God or Christians, then what is the most important aspect of religion to you as a believer?

Do onto others, as you would yourself.

everything in the bible, all the rules, all the morality is summed up right there.

If that is the highest ideal of morality, why does God not do it?

For instance, in scriptures he kills many and he could cure them just as readily. Both conditions go against free will, so some tell me and it seems strange that God would not think it better to cure than kill. I am sure he would rather be cured than killed.

I appreciate when he would think those he kills evil but.

Romans 12:21
Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Most see killing as evil compared to curing.

Thoughts?

Regards
DL

graphuto

justreleased

can you explain to me why "god" allows so many tragedies? Why for example would he allow the 9/11 attack?

Because if God controlled every single aspect of every single thing that every single person does, there would be no free will involved. This is the base of the answer.

What does God go by in deciding to ignore our free will or not?

After all, scriptures are full of God killing us and that certainly effects our free will choice that would go to live and not to die.

Regards
DL

benrl

graphuto

justreleased

can you explain to me why "god" allows so many tragedies? Why for example would he allow the 9/11 attack?

Because if God controlled every single aspect of every single thing that every single person does, there would be no free will involved. This is the base of the answer.

I always go to the following,

If your a parent, do you want your child to do whats right because you control every aspect of their life? Anytime they get into trouble you rush in and fix the problem.

Or do you want the child to do whats right because you gave them the tools to make the right choices on their own, and than sit there and be there if they ever screw up bad enough to need you.

Now that is twisted.

Are you saying that you would sit back and let your child kill someone without intervention, even if you could prevent it?

You would allow someone to die and have your child jailed forever just to teach him a lesson would you?

You do know that in todays court of law you would be found just as culpable. Right?

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am

Obviously filing system mishap.
I have a separate "drafts" folder for future threads, and try to transfer them out once they've been used.

justreleased

edit on 4-2-2014 by justreleased because: (no reason given)

I have no problem explaining evil. It is built into nature and evolution.

have a look at an old O P but let's not get too far of topic ok.

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.
That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.

Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons. Evil is mankind’s responsibility and not some imaginary God’s. Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.

Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.
In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.

Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

These links speak to theistic evolution.

www.youtube.com...

If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.

If the above is not convincing enough for you then show me where in this baby evil lives or is a part of it’s nature and instincts.

www.youtube.com...

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Regards
DL

Awen24

justreleased
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

I don't have sound on the public computer I am currently using. I could watch the video without sound but....

OP you are obviously a religious person can you explain to me why "god" allows so many tragedies? Why for example would he allow the 9/11 attack?

Curious.

The problem with this question is that it's duplicitous.
You're happy for God to stop what you perceive as a "big" evil, but would you be happy if he stepped in every time you decided to visit that porn site in your bookmarks?

The problem here is one of perspective. Our perspective isn't God's perspective.
Free will obviously plays a role, as others have pointed out, but the real point is this - that God has already answered the question, and stated that because of mankind's rebellion, he "gave them over to a depraved mind, to do things that should not be done."

God has intervened in our history and given us an "out", in Jesus Christ. The time will come when He WILL stop all of this evil... but right now? He's showing patience - because when He does come, He'll come as a Righteous Judge... and He'll judge not just the 9/11 bombers, but the kid with the porn links in his bookmarks and the little old man who yells at the kids that step on his lawn.

So the question then becomes a far simpler one:

What are you going to do about the problem at the heart of EVERY man? "Your sins have separated you from God", the Bible says. That's the problem... and God has given the solution. Jesus Christ took the punishment due for that sin on Himself... so if you want to solve the problem of sin, there's only one way to do so.

edit on 4-2-2014 by Awen24 because: (no reason given)

Where are your morals my friend?

Seems you have embraced barbaric human sacrifice and the notion that judges should set and accept bribes and sacrifices to corrupt their justice.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Meet me above so that I can put you on the moral path. Your present course will take you to hell.

Regards
DL

ChesterJohn
The English words moral, morals, morality, immoral, immoralities none of these words even appear in the English Bible used for 300 years before any other translation of the Bible in English was made. And even in them very few have these words to date and if they do you can't get enough info to determine what it means except that it refers to sexual activity.

So what does anyone mean by Moral, Morals, Morality, Immoral, Immorality, immoralities etc etc?

Are we to use a dictionary understanding of these?

Should the Dictionary understanding of these be practiced?

edit on 4-2-2014 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)

True on the word moral.

The ancients used the word righteous more than moral but I think they are close enough synonyms.

For instance, do unto others is a righteous tenet and so is reciprocity is fair play. Reciprocity is seldom used in scriptures as well.

If you get to much into semantics then you may as well scrap all books written before 1,000 C E or so.

Regards
DL

DISRAELI
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Obviously filing system mishap.
I have a separate "drafts" folder for future threads, and try to transfer them out once they've been used.

I have a system as well but no gold star this month.

Regards
DL

reply to post by benrl


matthew 7:12..
it's also in other places in the Bible.. somewhere in Leviticus and Exodus.. IDK probably all over it.
it is the major portion or point of what most religion is for.. Some form of the Golden rule is generally seen in most religions...
but there is a lot of intricate details i like in religion, which it adds to be more keen on following it.
Most involving sin...cardinal(deadly) sin to be more specific. Pride/vanity plays a huge part in the first big chunk of the commandments. Deadliest sin right off plays as the biggest deterrent to the golden rule.

knowledge of sin is what i take most from religion..

Greatest I am

benrl

Greatest I am


If morals are not the most important issue for God or Christians, then what is the most important aspect of religion to you as a believer?

Do onto others, as you would yourself.

everything in the bible, all the rules, all the morality is summed up right there.

If that is the highest ideal of morality, why does God not do it?

For instance, in scriptures he kills many and he could cure them just as readily. Both conditions go against free will, so some tell me and it seems strange that God would not think it better to cure than kill. I am sure he would rather be cured than killed.

I appreciate when he would think those he kills evil but.

Romans 12:21
Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Most see killing as evil compared to curing.

Thoughts?

Regards
DL

Wrath of God is a very interesting subject. It might be hard for me to talk about this without sounding too grandiose...maybe I can try hinting towards the burden of being God? He loves ALL of his children, so much, that maybe not interfering would be the best course of action.