Hobby Lobby May Close All 500+ Stores in 41 States

buster2010

OccamsRazor04

Flatfish
reply to post by Bone75

 

I totally disagree with you.

Screw em! For a party that advocates for getting government out of our business, they sure as hell are interested in retaining their own perceived right to get into our business.

Let them close their doors, I'm sure the other hobby stores around America will be more than happy to fill the gap.

1. They aren't government.
2. They aren't getting into anyone's business. Unless you can show me where they ask such questions of people. Their employees can do whatever they want, they just don't want to pay for it.

Of course they are getting into peoples business if they weren't then they would just pay the insurance without asking what is covered. Just the act of saying we won't cover this part of the insurance just shows they want to control their employees lives.

No. Getting into their business is asking them what they are doing. They don't do that. What they do is say you do whatever you want, that's your business, but don't expect us to pay for a morning after pill.

windword
reply to post by OccamsRazor04

 

They aren't preventing abortions. They just won't pay for them.

Hobby Lobby is NOT being asked to pay for abortion. They are, however, required to provide "pregnancy preventing" contraception coverage.

Their problem is not with that, it's with the morning after/week after pills. They take no issue with regular birth control (such as condoms or Dep shots or "The Pill").

windword

Don't kid yourself! Other birth control methods that employ this preventative backstop that inhibits implantation are IUD's, The Pill, The Patch, Depo Provera and NuvaRing. So, yeah, Hobby Lobby and the pro-life movement are against most types of birth control methods that women today are using.

You should know from our previous conversations that I'm very much aware of how the different types of contraceptives work.

reply to post by grey580


I don't see how you figure they are infringing upon anyone's rights. If they don't feel it is ethically right to provide the morning after pill to their employees via their health insurance plans, then why should they have to? People don't have a "right" to health insurance, and just because the government mandates something does not mean it is a constitutional right.

Hypothetically, let's say that employee health insurance, and the morning after pill WERE constitutional rights. Hobby Lobby would still not be infringing upon anyone's rights because they are merely refusing to pay for these services as a company. The employee can still walk down to the insurance office and get insurance, or go down to the pharmacy and get the morning after pill.

The only way that HL would be infringing upon their employees rights would be if they were locking them in cages, and physically preventing them from getting access to insurance and the pill, which they are not doing.

Double Post

I didn't think it was possible for someone to one-up John Schnatter's (Papa John's) refusal to cover health insurance with a 14-cent a pizza price hike, and be a bigger douchebag.

I see I was wrong.

I've never heard of Hobby Lobby before, though now that I have, I have a piss-poor opinion of them. Using the good ol' religion excuse to refuse health insurance, how immature.

Nyiah
I didn't think it was possible for someone to one-up John Schnatter's (Papa John's) refusal to cover health insurance with a 14-cent a pizza price hike, and be a bigger douchebag.

I see I was wrong.

I've never heard of Hobby Lobby before, though now that I have, I have a piss-poor opinion of them. Using the good ol' religion excuse to refuse health insurance, how immature.

And way to show how ignorant you are. This has nothing to do about cost. They pay a higher wage than their competitors. It also would not add anything to the cost Hobby Lobby pays to cover these pills. It's about someone telling them to do something which they believe is murder.

What if the government told you that if your neighbor wishes to kill their parents when they turn 60 that you have to pay for it to be done. Would it be the fact the neighbor is killing their parents, or the $1 a year in taxes you have to pay that pisses you off?

reply to post by Bone75

You should know from our previous conversations that I'm very much aware of how the different types of contraceptives work.

Then why did you post that intellectually dishonest snippet, suggesting that they are only against Plan B, but not IUD's, the Patch, The Pill, NuvaRing......???????

reply to post by OccamsRazor04

Their problem is not with that, it's with the morning after/week after pills. They take no issue with regular birth control (such as condoms or Dep shots or "The Pill").

Then they're being dishonest and hypocritical in their objections, because all these methods employ the same safeguard of preventing implantation.

Nyiah
I've never heard of Hobby Lobby before, though now that I have, I have a piss-poor opinion of them. Using the good ol' religion excuse to refuse health insurance, how immature.

What's immature is how you folks keep insisting that he's using his religion to get out of providing health insurance. Why can't you simply accept it for what it is? He doesn't want to pay for anyone's abortion pills.

windword
reply to post by Bone75

 

You should know from our previous conversations that I'm very much aware of how the different types of contraceptives work.

Then why did you post that intellectually dishonest snippet, suggesting that they are only against Plan B, but not IUD's, the Patch, The Pill, NuvaRing......???????

reply to post by OccamsRazor04

 

Their problem is not with that, it's with the morning after/week after pills. They take no issue with regular birth control (such as condoms or Dep shots or "The Pill").

Then they're being dishonest and hypocritical in their objections, because all these methods employ the same safeguard of preventing implantation.

No, since the main goal of most birth control is to a) prevent ovulation and b) prevent fertilization, whereas the morning after / week after pill does neither. In fact within a week many women who were fertilized already have the egg attaching/attached.

NuvaRing contains 2 types of hormones (estrogen and progestin), which work together to prevent your ovaries from producing mature eggs.

www.nuvaring.com...

So, sorry, you are simply ignorant.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04


That's quite a jump, there, to claim ignorance. I said Schnatter's excuse was douchey, and said I didn't think anyone could ever outdo him. Enter the religious excuse (note: I said religious, not financial) Extra-douchey. He's going full knuckle-dragger in that he's implying that all female employees are going to use something he's against, regardless of their own views, and therefore, "If I can't trust you, you can't have it!"

Douchebag is fitting. He's already staking a control claim to peoples' crotch health.

The owner is providing a benefit, that's all. He does not have to provide a benefit that is not required by law. Vacations, sick days, 401ks are not a requirement for an employer. If you don't like the package your being offered, you can always look else ware.

Nyiah
reply to post by OccamsRazor04

 

That's quite a jump, there, to claim ignorance. I said Schnatter's excuse was douchey, and said I didn't think anyone could ever outdo him.

False. You then said Hobby Lobby DID outdo him. And implied it was about money by bringing up money, which is sheer ignorance on your part as it would not cost him a penny.

Enter the religious excuse (note: I said religious, not financial) Extra-douchey. He's going full knuckle-dragger in that he's implying that all female employees are going to use something he's against, regardless of their own views, and therefore, "If I can't trust you, you can't have it!"

False. He is not implying even a single one of them will do it. He is saying he refuses to pay for something he considers murder. The employees are free to do whatever they want, he is not asking them to change anything or follow his beliefs.

Douchebag is fitting. He's already staking a control claim to peoples' crotch health.

What does a morning after pill have to do with crotch health? Maybe you can show me where he is controlling gyno access, I wil wait for it.

windword

Then why did you post that intellectually dishonest snippet, suggesting that they are only against Plan B, but not IUD's, the Patch, The Pill, NuvaRing......???????

Because that's what his attorney stated. Apparently Dr. Greene and I disagree on what constitutes as an abortion inducing contraceptive. Personally I would've included the others as well, but maybe this is a matter of choosing your battles wisely.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04

In fact within a week many women who were fertilized already have the egg attaching/attached.

Plan B, nor any other birth control method mentioned, detaches an embryo from the uterine wall.

So, sorry, you are simply ignorant.

No, friend. One thing I am up on is the rabid insistence of the "Right to Life" pro-lifers and they're firm stance on "Life begins at conception". Any contraception method that prevent implantation is "MURDER in their eyes.

Again, no implantation = no pregnancy. No pregnancy = no abortion.

NuvaRing has three ways of working:
It can prevent ovulation (the release of an egg from the ovary);
It can cause the mucus in the cervix to change so that if sperm reach the cervix, it is more difficult for them to enter; and
It can alter the lining of the uterus so that if the first and two actions fail and a new human being is created, the tiny baby boy or girl will die before he or she can actually attach to the lining of the uterus.
thetruthofcontraceptives.blogspot.com...

NUVARING = ABORTION!!!!!!

Abortion Causing Effect
pill packets:
It is a medical fact that the morning-after pill (a high dosage of the birth control pill) and most if not all birth control drugs and devices including the intrauterine device (IUD), Depo Provera, the Patch, and the Pill can act to terminate a pregnancy by chemically altering the lining of the uterus (endometrium) so that a newly conceived child (human embryo) is unable to implant in the womb, thus starving and dying. This mechanism of action is termed a pre-implantation chemical abortion.
www.prolifewisconsin.org...

"This mechanism of action is termed a pre-implantation chemical abortion." Nope, not by any legitimate medical association it's not. (In other words, the egg will wash away with the woman's next period, like 50 +% fertilized egg do naturally anyway.)

So, Hobby Lobby is lying about being pro-life or they're lying about being okay with any hormonal contraception plan for their employees.

Oh, and FYI, a fertilized egg is not a tiny baby boy or girl.

1. Corporations do not have "freedom of religion."

2. Corporations cannot pick and choose which laws they follow based on their principals' individual interpretation of religious beliefs.

3. These statements both reflect long-standing legal precedent in the US.

4. To advocate that government should apply laws differently to corporations is one of the foundations of fascism.

5. Providing health insurance to employees is not the same as providing "abortion pills" to employees.

6. Being legally required to provide health insurance to employees is not the same as being legally required to provide "abortion pills" to employees.

7. Health insurance is an employment benefit that is a part of a compensation package; it is not "given" to anyone.

8. Money spent by a corporation on employment benefits is a part of the cost of doing business.

9. An employer should have no say in the medical care an employee seeks or receives.

10. Spontaneous abortion occurs in 30-50% of pregnancies. This is a biological fact. Whether an abortion is spontaneous or induced, there is no difference in the outcome; an aborted fetus is an aborted fetus.

11. If you don't believe in abortion, don't have one. Stop trying to actively or passively control the lives of others.

reply to post by Bone75


god gave us this company, now god is taking it away!

windword
reply to post by OccamsRazor04

 

In fact within a week many women who were fertilized already have the egg attaching/attached.

Plan B, nor any other birth control method mentioned, detaches an embryo from the uterine wall.

So, sorry, you are simply ignorant.

No, friend. One thing I am up on is the rabid insistence of the "Right to Life" pro-lifers and they're firm stance on "Life begins at conception". Any contraception method that prevent implantation is "MURDER in their eyes.

Again, no implantation = no pregnancy. No pregnancy = no abortion.

NuvaRing has three ways of working:
It can prevent ovulation (the release of an egg from the ovary);
It can cause the mucus in the cervix to change so that if sperm reach the cervix, it is more difficult for them to enter; and
It can alter the lining of the uterus so that if the first and two actions fail and a new human being is created, the tiny baby boy or girl will die before he or she can actually attach to the lining of the uterus.
thetruthofcontraceptives.blogspot.com...

NUVARING = ABORTION!!!!!!

Abortion Causing Effect
pill packets:
It is a medical fact that the morning-after pill (a high dosage of the birth control pill) and most if not all birth control drugs and devices including the intrauterine device (IUD), Depo Provera, the Patch, and the Pill can act to terminate a pregnancy by chemically altering the lining of the uterus (endometrium) so that a newly conceived child (human embryo) is unable to implant in the womb, thus starving and dying. This mechanism of action is termed a pre-implantation chemical abortion.
www.prolifewisconsin.org...

"This mechanism of action is termed a pre-implantation chemical abortion." Nope, not by any legitimate medical association it's not. (In other words, the egg will wash away with the woman's next period, like 50 +% fertilized egg do naturally anyway.)

So, Hobby Lobby is lying about being pro-life or they're lying about being okay with any hormonal contraception plan for their employees.

Oh, and FYI, a fertilized egg is not a tiny baby boy or girl.

Please show me where Plan B prevents ovulation of mature eggs and prevents fertilization. That is what most birth control does.

If Plan B does not do that then it is not the same as you have stated. Since you know this, it means you just like to lie.

Gryphon6611. If you don't believe in abortion, don't have one. Stop trying to actively or passively control the lives of others.

Great, now show me where Hobby Lobby is telling it's employees they can not have an abortion.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04

False. He is not implying even a single one of them will do it. He is saying he refuses to pay for something he considers murder. The employees are free to do whatever they want, he is not asking them to change anything or follow his beliefs.

Wait a minute this has everything to do with beliefs of his religion.

From OP

Being Christians, we don’t pay for drugs that might cause abortions, which means that we don’t cover emergency contraception, the morning-after pill or the week-after pill. We believe doing so might end a life after the moment of conception, something that is contrary to our most important beliefs.

You can argue this in any way you want but he wants the law changed or an exemption from the law because of his religion. If the law was changed it would violate the establishment clause in the first amendment. The scientific and society at large does not classify contraception as murder in fact I didn't read where he even claimed it is murder.

From the source

We’re Christians, and we run our business on Christian principles. I’ve always said that the first two goals of our business are (1) to run our business in harmony with God’s laws(2) to focus on people more than money.

I am sorry he believes that his business can no longer be run in our republic but to change things to accommodate his religion would move us closer to a theocracy. I am more than certain there are many that would welcome a change in the U.S. to a theocracy but I am not one of them.