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Hobby Lobby May Close All 500+ Stores in 41 States

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posted on Feb, 4 2014 @ 04:05 PM
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reply to post by LewsTherinThelamon
 


Perhaps you don't understand what a strawman argument is? I asked you a question about "the free market."

You then took that and attacked an argument that I didn't make i.e. "just because no nation has a free market ... etc. etc."

I didn't make that argument, thus your claim in response is a "strawman." I'm pretty sure you understand that, so let's move on.

You repeatedly refer to "the free market" as if it is a quality or quantity that exists. I asked for evidence; you provide none.

You're merely attempting semantic subterfuge.

If Western Civilization utilized a "free market" then point to one, location and dates and evidence.

If the US had a "free market" at some historic point, then point to it, location and dates and evidence.

IF you can't, then just admit that you're discussing a fantasy as if it were real and let's move on.

This tangent is off-topic.

After you show even one example of a "free market" operating on any national or regional scale at anywhere or any time in history, then perhaps you can show how that "free market" relates to a claim that First Amendment rights are being abridged by the requirements of the ACA.

Or, just admit you're talking through your hat, and we can all move on.




posted on Feb, 4 2014 @ 04:11 PM
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SearchLightsInc
reply to post by Bone75
 


"We provide your job, we own you"

They sound like a good company to work for but i have to disagree with you bonez, their employment of people does not give them the right to force their religious beliefs upon their employee's - If they want to shut their business because of this then i'll help board up the windows to their shop.


Your argument would hold water if they prevented their employees from using contraceptives by policy or threat of job loss. Since that is not the case...your point fails.
They are objecting to the govt forcing them to pay for the contraception...they are not preventing anyone from using it. There is no way you are going to convince me that an employee will only use contraceptives if they are free...and if there are people like that out there, then they are idiots. Personally, I prefer not to have to support idiots unless they are related lol


edit on 4-2-2014 by bbracken677 because: a properly place not can be a huge thing



posted on Feb, 4 2014 @ 04:13 PM
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LewsTherinThelamon

You do realize you receive a salary/wage from your employer as compensation for a service that you provided to pay for it? Right? If you are paying for it with the money that you earned, then no one can stop you from purchasing the product. That is tyrannical.



What's the point of providing healthcare at all if you're just going to pick and mix what employee's can have? You might as well just provide no healthcare if you're going to be a baby about it.



But, you can't get a paycheck and make your employer pay for your living expenses as well. That is the problem. If you want to force your employer to give you such a privilege, then you deserve to live with whatever your employer decides is fair. A benefit is a privilege, not a right. You do not have the right to another person's labor.



As ive said, if employer's cant be impartial about it then dont provide it at all. By providing it with terms and conditions based purely on your religious beliefs then you are defeating the entire point of providing healthcare.



Seriously. I need to pass a law to make you personally pay for my healthcare and see how you like it. For no reason at all other than I have a right to it. If one individual's money belongs to you to make decisions over, then I can make decisions over your money as well.


I live in the UK, im more than happy to pay for you're healthcare mate. Whatever you need, you'll get, because we dont F*ck about here with religious politics. You need contraception? No problem. Abortion? No problem. Methadone to treat your heroin addiction? We got you covered. We know that healthcare isnt a one plan treats all.

Let them close their business. They might as well start refusing to serve women who have had abortions/actively taking birth control.
edit on 4-2-2014 by SearchLightsInc because: (no reason given)

edit on 4-2-2014 by SearchLightsInc because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 4 2014 @ 04:17 PM
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SearchLightsInc

NavyDoc

SearchLightsInc
reply to post by Bone75
 


"We provide your job, we own you"

They sound like a good company to work for but i have to disagree with you bonez, their employment of people does not give them the right to force their religious beliefs upon their employee's - If they want to shut their business because of this then i'll help board up the windows to their shop.


But that's not what they did. They simply don't want to cover something as part of their compensation package. The employee is perfectly free to buy their own birth control and won't be fired if they do.



Okay, so lets say an company run by very strict Amish doesnt want to provide cover for blood transfusions, you're cool with that as well yeah?


Sure, why not? If the potential of getting a blood transfusion is so bad for me, I'll got elsewhere for employment. The employer wants an employee. They negotiate what sort of compensation package they want to give/receive. If they come to a mutually beneficial agreement, then great! If not, they are free to go their separate ways. If one or the other fails to maintain the stipulations of the contract they both agreed upon, there are means for redress.

Would you be for the government mandating your interpersonal relationships? If not, why are you for the government mandating the terms of relationships between others?



posted on Feb, 4 2014 @ 04:18 PM
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reply to post by Gryphon66
 



I also am pretty sure that you know what a "free market" is. I am also pretty sure that you understand this world is shades of grey with few absolute whites and few absolute blacks.

So...can you understand that the free market, as a goal, is a good thing? There may be some regulation, and the constitution actually provides for the regulation of interstate and international trade, which is advantageous as opposed to a totally free and unrestricted market. Seems that you are drawing a line in the sand that simply states since it isnt white and it isnt black then it does not exist.

Disingenuous.... IMO



posted on Feb, 4 2014 @ 04:19 PM
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bbracken677

SearchLightsInc
reply to post by Bone75
 


"We provide your job, we own you"

They sound like a good company to work for but i have to disagree with you bonez, their employment of people does not give them the right to force their religious beliefs upon their employee's - If they want to shut their business because of this then i'll help board up the windows to their shop.


Your argument would hold water if they prevented their employees from using contraceptives by policy or threat of job loss. Since that is not the case...your point fails.
They are objecting to the govt forcing them to pay for the contraception...they are not preventing anyone from using it. There is no way you are going to convince me that an employee will only use contraceptives if they are free...and if there are people like that out there, then they are idiots. Personally, I prefer not to have to support idiots unless they are related lol


edit on 4-2-2014 by bbracken677 because: a properly place not can be a huge thing


As ive said, Jehovah's Witnesses dont believe you should have a blood transfusion - Does that give them the right to not cover their employee's for blood transfusions?

You know it doesnt.



posted on Feb, 4 2014 @ 04:19 PM
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SearchLightsInc

NavyDoc

SearchLightsInc
reply to post by Bone75
 


"We provide your job, we own you"

They sound like a good company to work for but i have to disagree with you bonez, their employment of people does not give them the right to force their religious beliefs upon their employee's - If they want to shut their business because of this then i'll help board up the windows to their shop.


But that's not what they did. They simply don't want to cover something as part of their compensation package. The employee is perfectly free to buy their own birth control and won't be fired if they do.



Okay, so lets say an company run by very strict Jehovah's Witnesses and they doet want to provide cover for blood transfusions, you're cool with that as well yeah?



posted on Feb, 4 2014 @ 04:21 PM
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I own a small art supply store and Hobby Lobby is big competition for me.
You would think I'd be happy about this, but I'm not.

It's good customer service to direct people to other options if you can't provide the service or product.
Hobby Lobby is literally the only source for some things around here...(I wonder if they would sell me their secret list of vendors?)

I stand by their right to fight this but I disagree with their reasoning (as in:This is an unwinnable fight and you're using the wrong weapon).
It seems like exit strategy posturing to me. Retired guy who wants to spend the rest of his days as the guy who fought Obama.
Why is Chick-fil-A not on board? Get some other businesses together, make it a class action party.



posted on Feb, 4 2014 @ 04:25 PM
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NavyDoc

Sure, why not? If the potential of getting a blood transfusion is so bad for me, I'll got elsewhere for employment.


You're just not getting the arguement are you?
You're basically stating its okay for a company to withhold certain medical care based on their religious beliefs.

You wonder why your countries a mess haha, you american's crack me up with your ignorance.




Would you be for the government mandating your interpersonal relationships? If not, why are you for the government mandating the terms of relationships between others?


What's the government got to do with this? Stop deflecting the argument.

A company is throwing its rattle out of the pram because it doesnt want to provide contraception and abortion in its healthcare package, religious beliefs have no place in business - Maybe they should start shutting their door's if that's how they want to be.
edit on 4-2-2014 by SearchLightsInc because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 4 2014 @ 04:34 PM
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If hobby lobby goes under then E-bay will boom or Michaels will pick up the slack for the gota have it now shoppers.

Maybe it is time to open an eBay account to sell doodley twits and nots.



posted on Feb, 4 2014 @ 04:34 PM
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bbracken677
reply to post by Gryphon66
 



I also am pretty sure that you know what a "free market" is. I am also pretty sure that you understand this world is shades of grey with few absolute whites and few absolute blacks.

So...can you understand that the free market, as a goal, is a good thing? There may be some regulation, and the constitution actually provides for the regulation of interstate and international trade, which is advantageous as opposed to a totally free and unrestricted market. Seems that you are drawing a line in the sand that simply states since it isnt white and it isnt black then it does not exist.

Disingenuous.... IMO


Tagging in, bracken? Good enough.

I do indeed understand what a "free market" is. LewsTherinThelamon uses the concept as a fundamental point in a whole line of argumentation, so I wanted to do them the courtesy of providing an example.

The "free market" is an imaginary concept fronted as an aspect of economic theory. Adam Smith is usually cited as the originator of the idea in his "Wealth of Nations." However, contrary to what armchair libertarian idealists and Randian acolytes wish to promote, Adam Smith said of government intervention:



"When the regulation, therefore, is in support of the workman, it is always just and equitable; but it is sometimes otherwise when in favour of the masters."
(Source - "Wealth of Nations"


As utilized in arguments of this type, though, "the free market" is all too often posited as a land of unicorns and rainbows in which humans act suddenly begin to act against their innate nature to acquire as much as they can in any way that they can, in which every individual has an equal opportunity to be involved in the "market" and in which there is no greed and no one willing to act unfairly to achieve what they desire.

The "free market' is, in short, an idealized, non-existent parable at best. Every human government from tribal council to the modern nation-state has realized that a mixed economy in which there is regulation balanced with freedom is the most effective system that we have yet developed.

That doesn't lend itself well to ideological diatribes though, does it?
edit on 16Tue, 04 Feb 2014 16:37:00 -060014p042014266 by Gryphon66 because: A nickel here and a dime there.



posted on Feb, 4 2014 @ 04:37 PM
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SearchLightsInc

bbracken677

SearchLightsInc
reply to post by Bone75
 


"We provide your job, we own you"

They sound like a good company to work for but i have to disagree with you bonez, their employment of people does not give them the right to force their religious beliefs upon their employee's - If they want to shut their business because of this then i'll help board up the windows to their shop.


Your argument would hold water if they prevented their employees from using contraceptives by policy or threat of job loss. Since that is not the case...your point fails.
They are objecting to the govt forcing them to pay for the contraception...they are not preventing anyone from using it. There is no way you are going to convince me that an employee will only use contraceptives if they are free...and if there are people like that out there, then they are idiots. Personally, I prefer not to have to support idiots unless they are related lol


edit on 4-2-2014 by bbracken677 because: a properly place not can be a huge thing


As ive said, Jehovah's Witnesses dont believe you should have a blood transfusion - Does that give them the right to not cover their employee's for blood transfusions?

You know it doesnt.


so you believe that the constitution and following amendments (guaranteeing religious freedoms amongst others) is toilet paper for the US Govt to use to wipe your butt with?

I think that if an Amish person owns a business the govt has no right to force them to violate their religious beliefs. I also believe that if you were offered a job there then you are entitled to know what the catch is....then it is your choice. As it should be...as it should be the business owner's choice to exercise their religious beliefs as guaranteed by the Constitution.

I think people are now thinking in terms of "rights" when it comes to this subject. Show me where, in the constitution, you are guaranteed the right of free contraception? By any stretch of the definition..



posted on Feb, 4 2014 @ 04:40 PM
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reply to post by Gryphon66
 



Perhaps you don't understand what a strawman argument is? I asked you a question about "the free market."
You then took that and attacked an argument that I didn't make i.e. "just because no nation has a free market ... etc. etc."


That is the exact argument that you made. You are establishing the erroneous claim that if a free market does not exist, then it is an invalid and untested ideology. That is a loaded question.


I didn't make that argument.


Yes you did.


You repeatedly refer to "the free market" as if it is a quality or quantity that exists. I asked for evidence; you provide none.


No. My point is that I believe a free market, as a concept, would be a better option than the managed economy we have now. I am not claiming that it is some tangible thing that exists. You were the one asking me to show you a nation that uses a free market.


IF you can't, then just admit that you're discussing a fantasy as if it were real and let's move on.


In what way am I discussing a fantasy as if it were real?


After you show even one example of a "free market" operating on any national or regional scale at anywhere or any time in history, then perhaps you can show how that "free market" relates to a claim that First Amendment rights are being abridged by the requirements of the ACA.


This is my point. The United States is, as of right now, a managed economy. We've got minimum wage laws, laws requiring companies to implement specific standards, laws forcing businesses to provide benefits to their employees. There are numerous regulations against "the market." Our economy is not self-regulating. Every time some economic crises takes place our knee-jerk reaction is to add more regulations, without ever taking a step back to see if--just maybe--all of our regulating is the problem to begin with.

If people were not using government as a weapon against businesses this entire issue would be a moot point. Everyone is upset because the owner of Hobby Lobby doesn't want to fork over more money to employees he already pays. None of you are upset over the fact that you think it's OK to use government to rob people, yet, you have no problem pretending to be morally superior to him.

Why, philosophically, should he be responsible for purchasing his employees commodities for them? That is the entire basis for receiving payment for doing a job, so we can buy stuff ourselves.


Or, just admit you're talking through your hat, and we can all move on.


I don't own a hat.

edit on 4-2-2014 by LewsTherinThelamon because: (no reason given)

edit on 4-2-2014 by LewsTherinThelamon because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 4 2014 @ 04:41 PM
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reply to post by SearchLightsInc
 


SearchLightsInc
Maybe they should start shutting their door's if that's how they want to be.


They do, every Sunday for religious beliefs.

I'm a 30 year old male, why should my company health insurance be mandated to provide me with gynecological visits and mammograms? The family that owns hobby lobby has religious beliefs forbidding them from participating in, providing access to, paying for, training others to engage in, or otherwise supporting abortion-causing drugs and devices. Why should they be mandated to go against the religion they believe in?

Nobody at Hobby Lobby is stopping you from getting birth control or having an abortion, they just want you to pay for it. Why is it any of their business what you do outside of work? If you are a female and want to be promiscuous, you have to face the consequences and pay for your own abortion.



posted on Feb, 4 2014 @ 04:45 PM
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bbracken677

so you believe that the constitution and following amendments (guaranteeing religious freedoms amongst others) is toilet paper for the US Govt to use to wipe your butt with?


They have religious freedom, they just dont have a right to inflict their religious beliefs upon everyone else.




I think that if an Amish person owns a business the govt has no right to force them to violate their religious beliefs. I also believe that if you were offered a job there then you are entitled to know what the catch is....then it is your choice. As it should be...as it should be the business owner's choice to exercise their religious beliefs as guaranteed by the Constitution.



And if a muslim business owner required all its female workers to wear the hijab or full burka, you're cool with that also?




I think people are now thinking in terms of "rights" when it comes to this subject. Show me where, in the constitution, you are guaranteed the right of free contraception? By any stretch of the definition..



Show me where in the constitution you have a "right" to force your religious beliefs upon everyone else?

If you cant run a business because you morally disagree with providing contraception for you're employee's then your not running a business for the right reasons.



posted on Feb, 4 2014 @ 04:46 PM
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SearchLightsInc

I would rather companies didnt try and enforce their religious beliefs on their employee's. If they want to throw a tantrum and threaten to close their whole business over this issue then that makes me think that maybe they shouldnt be doing business with the general public.

It's like you're employer saying "Here's your pay packet, dont spend it on drink and drugs because i disapprove"

There is a line between the employer and employee - These people obviously want to cross it.


Show me just one case in this companies entire history where an employee complained about all these horrible things they were subject to. Single moms make up a huge part of their workforce. Show me where even one of them complained about not having morning after pills covered by their insurance. Just one will do.



The company's describes its "statement of purpose" as serving owners, employees and customers by:

"Honoring the Lord in all we do by operating the company in a manner consistent with biblical principles."

"Offering our customers an exceptional selection and unbeatable value.

"Serving our employees and their families by establishing a work environment and company policies which build character, strengthen individuals and nurture families."

"Providing a return on the owners' investment, sharing the Lord's blessings with our employees and investing in our community."

Store manager Meser described the company as a committed employer which is closed on Sundays to allow employees time to worship and be with their families.

"Not that many companies are willing to do that," he said. Asked whether he employs any gays or lesbians, Meser said he has no idea. The company, he said, is an equal-opportunity employer.


This company is standing by it's principles and I hope they win.



edit on 4-2-2014 by Bone75 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 4 2014 @ 04:46 PM
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reply to post by Gryphon66
 


Your argument would also apply to liberty. To freedom. To any concept that is idealized as a goal.

As I stated above, the world is made of shades of grey. To demand whites and blacks is facile, at best.

If the govt removes one of your rights, let's just say: the right to assemble or, say, the right of free speech. Has your liberty, your freedom been violated? And yet, those concepts, by your definition, do not exist simply due to the fact that true liberty, true freedom does not exist except as a concept, but when applied to Nations, they have never, in the purest form, existed in totale.

Your argument is, and shall remain, disingenuous. By your definition, the lack of purity in the existence of any concept or ideal, denies it's existence and bans it to fantasy land.

Fantasy (any concept or ideal) it may be, in it's purist form, but to strive towards the ideal is, and hopefully shall remain, part of the human condition.



posted on Feb, 4 2014 @ 04:47 PM
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reply to post by bbracken677
 





It's about whether the govt has the right to FORCE an employer to provide a service that runs counter to the owners religious belief system.


So if the employer were a White Supremacist...
It's ok for him to discriminate against non whites?



posted on Feb, 4 2014 @ 04:48 PM
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reply to post by SearchLightsInc
 


Why are you so confused?

The owner of Hobby Lobby is not forcing his beliefs on anyone.

You are basically saying, "since you won't pay for the things that I want you to pay for, you are forcing your beliefs on me."

He's not stopping them from buying it themselves.

"Let me rob you, otherwise, you're a wicked man."
edit on 4-2-2014 by LewsTherinThelamon because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 4 2014 @ 04:51 PM
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grey580
reply to post by bbracken677
 





It's about whether the govt has the right to FORCE an employer to provide a service that runs counter to the owners religious belief system.


So if the employer were a White Supremacist...
It's ok for him to discriminate against non whites?


YES! Why wouldn't that be OK? I can stop black people from entering my home, why do I have to employ them in my business? Why do I have to serve them in my business?

Because you want me to? That's a pretty poor reason.



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