How will you get yourself into heaven? On your own merit or via a scapegoat?

reply to post by Jesuslives4u

. . . in Revelations it speaks of a time when Hell will be destroyed forever. Hell will not continue for infinity.

In the old standard mythological religion of the Canaanite area which Jewish belief grew up in, death and hell were personified as beasts with certain god-like characteristics.
Baal would fight them and try to vanquish them for not just his own sake but to benefit others.

If God allows mankind to sin without punishment what good are his laws? If he changes his mind how would people look at him then?

That is not a New Testament point of view.
According to Paul, God wants to be known as the One who justifies the ungodly.
It is in the making right of people that God works, not in having some pride in people being in constant dread of His heavy hand.

Your life on this planet is a test. You will either pass or fail.

There is no evidence to support that idea from the Bible.
People are here on this planet because this is the place that was prepared for us as a habitat where we could live.
We are alive because at on time, two people really loved each other and from that union a child was born which was you.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

The tradition was the Law, and Jesus specifically stated that He came to fulfill the Law. Jesus came specifically to fulfill the role as Lamb of God.

Jesus was fulfilling the "Law and the Prophets" because they spoke of him.
That does not mean that he came to follow the Law.
Jesus did follow a higher law that came from his personal knowledge of God.
Now his parents followed the Laws, as righteous Jews, and had their child grow up as the same.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


I think Disraeli has made the issue clear.

The Law reveals the curse of sin that man has brought to the earth. Through His payment for our sins, Jesus freed His believers from the curse so that we are free to live by and fulfill the new form of the Law:

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another."

Jesus credits His righteousness to His believers. He fulfilled the Law so we share that fulfillment.

Its like growing up. After the age of 18, you are no longer under the Law of your parents. Instead, you are supposed to be mature enough to follow the laws of civility. No longer do you have to ask mommy and daddy for permission. Now you have freedom to choose, but that freedom comes with resposibilities.

jmdewey60
reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

 

The tradition was the Law, and Jesus specifically stated that He came to fulfill the Law. Jesus came specifically to fulfill the role as Lamb of God.

Jesus was fulfilling the "Law and the Prophets" because they spoke of him.
That does not mean that he came to follow the Law.
Jesus did follow a higher law that came from his personal knowledge of God.
Now his parents followed the Laws, as righteous Jews, and had their child grow up as the same.

If you say so.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

Did Jesus not express love by dying for our sins?

Jesus showed love by dying.
He made a deal with the authorities to let his disciples go if he gave himself up peacefully.
Now there is a verse that does say that Jesus died for our sins but there is a slight problem in translating it because the Greek preposition makes it look as if he was dying for the sake of the sins themselves rather than for us specifically.
This may sound really odd but it goes right along with the narrative of the New Testament, that what is loosely being followed is the role made up for the suffering servant of Isaiah 53, which uplifts the position of those considered to be the very personification of sin.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another."

No mention of believing in a sin sacrifice, only mention of loving one another.

Again, listen to Jesus and learn from what he said:

Matthew 9
13 But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Jesus had no desire to sacrifice or be sacrificed. That is a concept created by Paul and the church after his death. I'll leave it for you to read one more time.

Matthew 9
13 But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Jesus became a sacrifice and was shown no mercy on the cross, both opposing what he said he desired.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

]Not in any logical sense, no. Paul also had this to say:
Romans 6
14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

So it seems as though Paul is saying that you have no need to love your neighbor. Why would he say that when Jesus tells us to love one another?

"Grace" is what puts you into the camp of the sanctified (the church) rather than a status acquired through following a written Law.
If you were under the Law, meaning the constitution for the old system of salvation, which was membership in the Jewish religion, you would be by default, an uncircumcised pork eating gentile, cast out, or not "under grace".
In the new system of salvation, the constitution describes as the condition of membership, belief in Jesus and repentance and baptism and receiving the gift of the spirit of God through Jesus.

He also had this to say:
Galatians 3
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole."

I guess that means Paul considered loving one another as a curse and that Jesus told us to curse ourselves.

This verse goes along with the suffering servant theme from Isaiah 53, where Jesus is numbered with the sinners but is exalted in heaven.
None of us is beyond redemption, when we consider how wretched of a person Jesus represented as he hung on the cross of shame.

jmdewey60
reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

 

Did Jesus not express love by dying for our sins?

Jesus showed love by dying.
He made a deal with the authorities to let his disciples go if he gave himself up peacefully.
Now there is a verse that does say that Jesus died for our sins but there is a slight problem in translating it because the Greek preposition makes it look as if he was dying for the sake of the sins themselves rather than for us specifically.
This may sound really odd but it goes right along with the narrative of the New Testament, that what is loosely being followed is the role made up for the suffering servant of Isaiah 53, which uplifts the position of those considered to be the very personification of sin.

Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

Heb 10:10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Col 1:22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him

1 Pet 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe

Eph2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Its pretty clear for me, Jesus died on behalf of us for our sins.

Or, are all those passages mistranslated too?

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

If love fulfills the law, the same law that Jesus said hung on his two commandments, and Paul calls the written law a curse (which is the same one Jesus fulfilled), then he is calling loving one another a curse. You're making your own doctrine up to ignore the contradiction.

You are using a reverse logic.
The Law held a validity as long as it promoted those two basic themes.
If it did not continue in that vein, but the enforcers of the law in the Jewish community ignored those in favor of the more superficial aspects, then that law becomes invalid.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Hosea 6

"Therefore I cut you in pieces with my prophets, I killed you with the words of my mouth—then my judgments go forth like the sun.

6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings. 7 As at Adam, they have broken the covenant"

Jesus was quoting Josea in the OT. The messags is that God prefers mercy over sacrafice, BUT Adam (and therefore all sinners) violated that covenant. Therefore, the sacrafice must come before mercy. Your argument falls apart when the verse is put in context.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest


Yet Jesus purposely took the quote out of context. Why do you think that is? Why would he mention only one line within the verse instead of the whole thing? Maybe because he was telling them what he desired, which was mercy and not sacrifice. Or does god not get what he desires?

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

"Under the Law", where he is giving that as an example in the midst of the larger contextual example of trying to get people to understand the new covenant by comparing it to the old covenant.

Heb 10:10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Saying that Jesus does not have to do it more than once, and is using this metaphor to explain the superiority of what Jesus does, by a comparison with the Jewish sacrificial system.
It doesn't say that Jesus was offered to pay for sins but to sanctify us, which we are as a group, meaning the church, the sanctified body of Christ.
We are set apart to be a holy people, not through annual calender events by priests who have to repeatedly do it and using the blood of animals which can not perfect the priest.

Col 1:22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him

Jesus created the church through his actions as a person, through life and death and now in a glorified state, representing the full membership of those who will persevere in the faith to the end.

1 Pet 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.

The writer is using a rhetorical figure of speech, a simile comparing Jesus' goodness to that of what would have been considered as an acceptable thing to God in the old Jewish sacrificial system.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe

"The promise by faith" is an allusion to the biblical Abraham story, that he had faith enough to leave Ur and to go to Canaan.
OK, so what was promised?
It was this thing that turned out to be Israel which at its core was his descendants.
This is a metaphorical device to describe what the church is, it is this same sort of "club" which is the "special" people.
Israel and what was the remains of it at this time, the Jews, who represented the promise fulfilled.
Now through Jesus rather, we as the church represent this "special people club", not through an inheritance through genetic connections, but a membership of believing, which is based on spiritual connections.

Eph2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Not by our own actions according to a written prescription, are we a member of the church, but by a different standard, which is belief in Jesus.
The term "saved" should be understood in terms of there being this special group of people who are sanctified to holiness.
It is a modern invention to say that "saved" is something like a guaranteed non-revocable ticket for a rapture ride to heaven.
That was not what was being described by the New Testament writers.

Its pretty clear for me, Jesus died on behalf of us for our sins.

Which is what I said.
And what the Bible says.
Jesus died to benefit the sins, which is what it means literally in the Greek.
Jesus died so that despite the fact that we are sinners according to the old Mosaic code, we can still be sanctified people under the new system, the church.

Or, are all those passages mistranslated too?

More misinterpreted if you think that it means something other than what I said.
I'm not trying to be egotistical because I didn't invent this interpretation but it is based on the best scholarship by people who are not promoting an agenda, just reading it for what was actually in the mind of people like Paul when they were writing it all out.

3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

 

Yet Jesus purposely took the quote out of context. Why do you think that is? Why would he mention only one line within the verse instead of the whole thing? Maybe because he was telling them what he desired, which was mercy and not sacrifice. Or does god not get what he desires?

edit on 2/3/2014 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

No.

He was citing the verse that the Parisees all knew by heart. The Pharisees were judging Jesus for dining with sinners and Jesus quote Josea to teach that He was the sacrafice for the sinners. Thats why He said He didnt come to call to the righteous, but to call to the sinners.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Jesus didnt die just for the sanctification of the Church. He died for the sins of all mankind past, present and future. Why do you think the soul in Abraham's Bossom had to wait for His death before they could ascend to heaven? They had to wait for the permanent attonment of their sins.

His death paid for everyone's sins, His life is what sanctified the Church.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest


So he was telling them he was going to be mercilessly sacrificed for a sin offering by saying he didn't desire a merciless sacrifice? That's some convoluted logic you've got there.

Say you are right, who were the righteous he spoke of? Because the OT and Paul claim that no one is righteous. He obviously saw someone or some people as righteous, otherwise he wouldn't have implied it.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Convoluted in what way? Jesus was quoting Josea 6 which basically said that God prefers mercy over sacrafice, but man chose sacrafice. Jesus was telling the Pharisees what they should have already known.

Lets say Im wrong and youre right. Jesus was being grilled for dining with sinners. What other point was Jesus trying to communicate if not the theme of Josea 6?

The righteous were the ones that believed Jesus was the Lamb of God. Though they were sinners, through Jesus sacrafice, they would be credited the righteousness of Christ.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest


He meant that he was showing mercy to the sinners and tax collectors he was eating with by speaking with them about his message.

The Pharisees asked why he was eating with sinners and Jesus answered that he was showing them mercy by sharing his knowledge with them. If Jesus only spoke to those who were already righteous, he would be preaching to the choir and would be "sacrificing" sinners' chances to repent from their ways after hearing his teachings.

So Jesus came for the righteous and the sinners? If even the righteous sinned why did he clearly separate them from the sinners? Jesus clearly differentiates the righteous from the sinners, meaning righteous people no longer sinned.

And again, is god not allowed to have what he desires because of puny little human affirs?

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1



Hey 3NL1GHT3N3D1…

I was following your discussion with DISRAELI, with great interest…

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
If nothing passes from the law until heaven and Earth disappear as Jesus says, why have Christians been given a free pass from the law?

Originally posted by DISRAELI
The difference is that the written law has a lot of things besides "love one another", and says we are under a curse if we don't do all of them.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
Jesus can't have meant every single detail of the written law, beause he himself disagreed with the permission to divorce, which was one of them. So perhaps he, too, was thinking more of the "spirit" embedded in the laws, the basic principles.

Part of DISRAELIs explanation, as you can see from the above, is that where under a curse, because we can’t do ALL of the law, by which he means, ALL of the Old Testament Laws…

But, it seems to me, like you didn’t mean, ALL of the Old Testament Laws (correct me if I’m wrong here) in your discussion. I think you just meant, Jesus two commandments i.e. the condensed two laws…as in the verse below…

Matthew 22:37-40
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

And if that’s the case, then it has a different bearing on your discussion with DISRAELI …because IMO Jesus teachings, clearly upgrade, those Old Testament Laws…

Just my 2 cents…


- JC

reply to post by Joecroft


Glad you joined Joe.

I'm only going off of what Jesus said, which was that all of the Law and Prophets hang on his two commandments.

Matthew 22
34 Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

If all of the Law and Prophets hang on his two commandments, that includes the prophet Moses' laws as well.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Heaven and Earth are still here meaning nothing has disappeared from the law, including Christians, yet Paul says otherwise. If nothing disappears from the law then the law cannot be replaced, but you say it has been replaced.

My personal view of this scene in Matthew is that Jesus is saying that here is this thing, which is the promises that there is a better world coming, and that promise is not going away, but the way that this better world comes about is through the following of a moral code that goes beyond just what has been written about it.