How will you get yourself into heaven? On your own merit or via a scapegoat?

Greatest I am

Jarring

Greatest I am

Jarring

Greatest I am

Jarring
I don't know if Jesus sinned.. I think he might have said the Lord's name in vain when he asked Him "Why hast thou forsaken me?" on the cross. /shrug, maybe, maybe not.

God's wrath is interesting to think about as I have stated in another thread, and think the understanding relies on the concept "burden of being God".

Being absentee for so long, he may have decided to do some anger management and abdicate his throne.

Then again, Jesus retired his wrathful ass when he decided that man had to go only through him. A forced retirement for dad.

Regards
DL

lol good point. I thought it was Loki that gave up doing his dirty work

/shrug i find personal morals and how you relate them to religious practice the most important anyways. I've found Christianity is the most specific to my morals. I was born Catholic, became agnostic, then eventually ran into Christ mentally while I was going through some years of mental evolution, like...I couldn't shake him, had to accept him. Been self-ordained born again Christian ever since. I think and say stuff by my own conclusions that coincide with Christian beliefs all the time, so I thought I might as well be one. I came to the defense of Christians well before I came to the religion personally, but you certainly won't find me defending their wrong-doings.

Morals are my focus and guide.

Let's compare a few.

I already mentioned divorce but you did not quite answer with a yes or no. Care to?
Is divorce a sin or not?

How about a second more general question.
What would be the best first moral tenet? Would it be one that centers on others or would it be one that centers on ourselves?

Regards
DL

my morals center around the golden rule and cardinal sin.
divorce is a sin, but it is moreso the result of much sin.

moral tenant is a universal give-take relationship that assumes the understanding of relationship between the individual and their surroundings.

The golden rule is do unto others while acknowledging that reciprocity is fair play.

That puts the onus on us to put others ahead or ourselves and I agree with your first tenet of morality.

It is not your God's first tenet and scriptures say that you are to emulate him. Where your tenet is centred on others, his is self-centered and says do for me, love honor obey etc.

Can I have your thoughts on this. Is our first tenet better than your Gods?

On divorce.
You say it is a sin and the result of more sin. Yet if those two people stay together in an un-loving situation, even more sin will happen and two lives plus children must live in an un-loving situation.

Christianity pushes love and a no divorce policy is definitely anti-love is it not?

Regards
DL

something a lot of Christians forget is that a lot of their morals are guided by precedent morals. I do not think of my moral tenant as better, I see them as one and the same, just as divorce is a sin equal to the sum of all sins leading to it.

one should not feel any further guilt for filing divorce when they are already mutually spiritually divorced. The sin has already been made. Many sins were made beforehand. They always are.
the deed was done, no point in arguing divorce over spiritual divorce.

FreeWillAnomaly
reply to post by Jarring

 

Very true. Pride is what got us in this mess in the first place.

Yes and note how prominent is the pride that believers have in themselves as they thing they have found God.

Is that a high form of pride or what?

It says look at how special I am as God actually acknowledged me and favored me with his presence.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am

LittleByLittle

Greatest I am

LittleByLittle

Greatest I am

FlyersFan

Greatest I am
Then you have yet to find him. A shame that.

We'll see. Time will tell. At any rate, you can't accurately judge my soul ... so I"m not worried about it.

Nor I my friend.

My belief says that we all get to heaven so I did not judge. I just opined that it is a shame that you have yet to get one hell of an eye opening learning experience.

Regards
DL

Depends on your definition of heaven and the frame of time you are talking about. Also is the you that is you now the same you that you will be?

Who mentioned heaven?

But to answer your question. Of course not. We all evolve daily. Weird question. Where do you want to go with it?

Regards
DL

edit on 5-2-2014 by Greatest I am because: (no reason given)

You where the one mentioning heaven when you wrote "My belief says that we all get to heaven so I did not judge". I have made my point and you have clearly added to it with your own words.

One for you. I had forgotten that passing reference.

Do you believe this Bishop?

www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL

I have had similar thoughts as this bishop. . The point of my reasoning was that my soul can be put in an biological machine of an alien nature and still "what is" is. God exists, even if the human versions of religious truths are not known for that alien.

About Sheol or a hellfire hell, I do not know if the exists or not. They might be or at least as a simulation someone have created to test out the experience. For me being human on Earth is a small minded limiting boxed experience, and a few years back before I got spiritual I thought that I was literally in hell here on Earth during my depression. I still think this place is a work in progress and very uncivilized compared to what it should be. At least I can calm myself down now with Reiki and meditation and spiritual music.

LittleByLittle

vethumanbeing
They will pay for it later believe me (even though they were warned this was foolhardy) the endevour to uplift the human would result in a spectacular downfall for many of them; the idea of being a god on this earth is too tempting (once you are here). I have the thought that the whole idea of "temptation" being the root of all evils, money, sex, indecent consumption was specifically directed at the Demi-gods and eventually passed down to include humans as well as the Ten Commandments. Do you see the irony?

LittleByLittleSomewhat I think. Many souls have sacrificed much for humanity and this planet on many levels. If it is the right thing to do or not I cannot know (or chose not to know) on this level. I play the cards that was dealt and the information I was given. Since I have a long term view I do not fret as much about the smaller details but focus on one thing at a time.

You percieve it as a sacrifice on their parts; they actually volunteered for the 'job' and knew exactly what they were getting themselves into and the end result of their actions; very brave actions. This is called the 'Warrior Path of Knowledge" rather than the "Service Path". Dont sweat the minor details, this life will be over in a another blink of an eye; Im trying to pay attention to greater dynamic (why am I here and who are you?). Its not easy to be incarnated here, there are waiting lines eons long, because there are not enough bodies for a fully developed soul to inhabit (bugs yes).
I hope that anyone living in a human vehicle would be thankful for this opportunity because the days of old "Karmic retribution/balance" to improve an individual soul are over.

vethumanbeing

LittleByLittle

Greatest I am

Gnostic Christianity is the wave of the future. You are a worthy candidate and should check it out. It is a thinking man's religion.
Christians are idol worshipers and are not allowed in.

Regards
DL

So no Gnostic Sikhs? No Gnostic Buddhists? No Gnostic Sufis? A little to limiting from my point of view. I like seeing the rainbow of colors blend into one and think about the different colors and where they meet. Very sacrilegious to those who are racist against all color but one who are their favorite and all others are fake.

This is a great line of reasoning you opened here Greatest and LittleBy as its all about posessing esoteric knowledge of the spiritual vein; and does not discriminate regarding faith systems; those are just functionary (the least path to resistance) that are mostly cultural/the locale the individual lives within. Everyone can expirience gnosis but its entirely personal as a journey. Guess what, the same conclusion will be reached by everyone accomplishing it regardless of faith (heres the caviat or fun part; to actually to accomplish this you must stop believing in ANY system of faith AS IS A FALSE obvious trapdoor to keep you from finding your path as it clouds or colors everything you already knew (before you encarnated here).

edit on 5-2-2014 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)

Exactly. That is why idol worshipers will never be Gnostic Christians.

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am


Well, it is an amazing experience to be called out of the world to be sure. Things you did not understand before about the world become clear to you. But as for taking pride in it?

I wouldn't recommend it. It depends on how you say pride, though.I agree that a lot of the pride you see in many Christians is sin. Many who claim to be Christians do not even follow Jesus, for that matter. If it is the kind that makes you feel conceited - that is very bad. There is an acceptable form of spiritual pride, but that is not it.

If you read the book of Job, it would appear that this was the last folly of one of the few righteous men to have walked the earth. God said he wanted to still his pride so he handed him over to Satan.

It's a great book, and one of the oldest in existence. If I remember right, it is almost as old as the Dead Sea Scrolls.

reply to post by Greatest I am


Gnosticism is an ancient deception and is full of idol worshipers. There are many gnostics who worship themselves, and many who worship spiritual entities that are not God.

But, it is your choice to choose that path. If it is what you choose, it is what you choose. Be warned, there is no salvation through knowledge though. Only by faith.

Jarring

Greatest I am

Jarring

Greatest I am

Jarring

Greatest I am

Jarring
I don't know if Jesus sinned.. I think he might have said the Lord's name in vain when he asked Him "Why hast thou forsaken me?" on the cross. /shrug, maybe, maybe not.

God's wrath is interesting to think about as I have stated in another thread, and think the understanding relies on the concept "burden of being God".

Being absentee for so long, he may have decided to do some anger management and abdicate his throne.

Then again, Jesus retired his wrathful ass when he decided that man had to go only through him. A forced retirement for dad.

Regards
DL

lol good point. I thought it was Loki that gave up doing his dirty work

/shrug i find personal morals and how you relate them to religious practice the most important anyways. I've found Christianity is the most specific to my morals. I was born Catholic, became agnostic, then eventually ran into Christ mentally while I was going through some years of mental evolution, like...I couldn't shake him, had to accept him. Been self-ordained born again Christian ever since. I think and say stuff by my own conclusions that coincide with Christian beliefs all the time, so I thought I might as well be one. I came to the defense of Christians well before I came to the religion personally, but you certainly won't find me defending their wrong-doings.

Morals are my focus and guide.

Let's compare a few.

I already mentioned divorce but you did not quite answer with a yes or no. Care to?
Is divorce a sin or not?

How about a second more general question.
What would be the best first moral tenet? Would it be one that centers on others or would it be one that centers on ourselves?

Regards
DL

my morals center around the golden rule and cardinal sin.
divorce is a sin, but it is moreso the result of much sin.

moral tenant is a universal give-take relationship that assumes the understanding of relationship between the individual and their surroundings.

The golden rule is do unto others while acknowledging that reciprocity is fair play.

That puts the onus on us to put others ahead or ourselves and I agree with your first tenet of morality.

It is not your God's first tenet and scriptures say that you are to emulate him. Where your tenet is centred on others, his is self-centered and says do for me, love honor obey etc.

Can I have your thoughts on this. Is our first tenet better than your Gods?

On divorce.
You say it is a sin and the result of more sin. Yet if those two people stay together in an un-loving situation, even more sin will happen and two lives plus children must live in an un-loving situation.

Christianity pushes love and a no divorce policy is definitely anti-love is it not?

Regards
DL

something a lot of Christians forget is that a lot of their morals are guided by precedent morals. I do not think of my moral tenant as better, I see them as one and the same, just as divorce is a sin equal to the sum of all sins leading to it.

They are obviously not the same and you ignored my divorce question.

Are we at that point where we talk past each other and no longer communicate?

Seems like it. If not, start again with honesty and clarity.

I showed an undeniable difference so do not insult by not seeing it.

Regards
DL

Jarring
one should not feel any further guilt for filing divorce when they are already mutually spiritually divorced. The sin has already been made. Many sins were made beforehand. They always are.
the deed was done, no point in arguing divorce over spiritual divorce.

So a woman who gets tired of being beat twice a week and seeks a divorce is just as much of a sinner as her husband.

That is what your morality tells you is it?

Regards
DL

reply to post by LittleByLittle


You felt like this world is hell because it is Satan's world - who is destined for Hell. Satan can not be redeemed, wants you in Hell, and is the god of this world. The one in you is stronger than the one in this world, though, if it is God's Spirit in you.

Greatest I am

Jarring

Greatest I am

Jarring

Greatest I am

Jarring

Greatest I am

Jarring
I don't know if Jesus sinned.. I think he might have said the Lord's name in vain when he asked Him "Why hast thou forsaken me?" on the cross. /shrug, maybe, maybe not.

God's wrath is interesting to think about as I have stated in another thread, and think the understanding relies on the concept "burden of being God".

Being absentee for so long, he may have decided to do some anger management and abdicate his throne.

Then again, Jesus retired his wrathful ass when he decided that man had to go only through him. A forced retirement for dad.

Regards
DL

lol good point. I thought it was Loki that gave up doing his dirty work

/shrug i find personal morals and how you relate them to religious practice the most important anyways. I've found Christianity is the most specific to my morals. I was born Catholic, became agnostic, then eventually ran into Christ mentally while I was going through some years of mental evolution, like...I couldn't shake him, had to accept him. Been self-ordained born again Christian ever since. I think and say stuff by my own conclusions that coincide with Christian beliefs all the time, so I thought I might as well be one. I came to the defense of Christians well before I came to the religion personally, but you certainly won't find me defending their wrong-doings.

Morals are my focus and guide.

Let's compare a few.

I already mentioned divorce but you did not quite answer with a yes or no. Care to?
Is divorce a sin or not?

How about a second more general question.
What would be the best first moral tenet? Would it be one that centers on others or would it be one that centers on ourselves?

Regards
DL

my morals center around the golden rule and cardinal sin.
divorce is a sin, but it is moreso the result of much sin.

moral tenant is a universal give-take relationship that assumes the understanding of relationship between the individual and their surroundings.

The golden rule is do unto others while acknowledging that reciprocity is fair play.

That puts the onus on us to put others ahead or ourselves and I agree with your first tenet of morality.

It is not your God's first tenet and scriptures say that you are to emulate him. Where your tenet is centred on others, his is self-centered and says do for me, love honor obey etc.

Can I have your thoughts on this. Is our first tenet better than your Gods?

On divorce.
You say it is a sin and the result of more sin. Yet if those two people stay together in an un-loving situation, even more sin will happen and two lives plus children must live in an un-loving situation.

Christianity pushes love and a no divorce policy is definitely anti-love is it not?

Regards
DL

something a lot of Christians forget is that a lot of their morals are guided by precedent morals. I do not think of my moral tenant as better, I see them as one and the same, just as divorce is a sin equal to the sum of all sins leading to it.

They are obviously not the same and you ignored my divorce question.

Are we at that point where we talk past each other and no longer communicate?

Seems like it. If not, start again with honesty and clarity.

I showed an undeniable difference so do not insult by not seeing it.

Regards
DL

Forgive me, I thought I was asserting the point of your question. My point is that divorce is wrong, but that shouldn't keep people from filing for it when they are already spiritually divorced. I seriously don't know how to answer the question any other way than by one in which I do not believe.

my belief structure is centered around morality and cardinal sin. The more I release myself from the bondage of sin, the closer I am to God and my understanding of Him. But now that I think about it, I can't morally say that I do it for God, I feel as if i am not worthy of his will. I could only relate the two as being one and the same from an objective standpoint due to my experiences.

Greatest I am

Jarring
one should not feel any further guilt for filing divorce when they are already mutually spiritually divorced. The sin has already been made. Many sins were made beforehand. They always are.
the deed was done, no point in arguing divorce over spiritual divorce.

So a woman who gets tired of being beat twice a week and seeks a divorce is just as much of a sinner as her husband.

That is what your morality tells you is it?

Regards
DL

no. =\

LittleByLittle

Greatest I am

LittleByLittle

Greatest I am

LittleByLittle

Greatest I am

FlyersFan

Greatest I am
Then you have yet to find him. A shame that.

We'll see. Time will tell. At any rate, you can't accurately judge my soul ... so I"m not worried about it.

Nor I my friend.

My belief says that we all get to heaven so I did not judge. I just opined that it is a shame that you have yet to get one hell of an eye opening learning experience.

Regards
DL

Depends on your definition of heaven and the frame of time you are talking about. Also is the you that is you now the same you that you will be?

Who mentioned heaven?

But to answer your question. Of course not. We all evolve daily. Weird question. Where do you want to go with it?

Regards
DL

edit on 5-2-2014 by Greatest I am because: (no reason given)

You where the one mentioning heaven when you wrote "My belief says that we all get to heaven so I did not judge". I have made my point and you have clearly added to it with your own words.

One for you. I had forgotten that passing reference.

Do you believe this Bishop?

www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL

I have had similar thoughts as this bishop.

. The point of my reasoning was that my soul can be put in an biological machine of an alien nature and still "what is" is. God exists, even if the human versions of religious truths are not known for that alien.

About Sheol or a hellfire hell, I do not know if the exists or not. They might be or at least as a simulation someone have created to test out the experience. For me being human on Earth is a small minded limiting boxed experience, and a few years back before I got spiritual I thought that I was literally in hell here on Earth during my depression. I still think this place is a work in progress and very uncivilized compared to what it should be. At least I can calm myself down now with Reiki and meditation and spiritual music.

Morality would decide if it exists or not. Right?
Feel like doing a bit of thinking?

Judgment and punishment go hand in hand.

Our human laws have a form of punishment where the penalty is graduated to fit the crime. An eye for an eye type of justice.

God‘s punishment seems to surpass this standard with hell. Hell used here is the eternal fire and torture type of hell and I am not particularly interested in the myriad of other definitions and theories that some use to supplant this traditional view.

To ascertain if hell would be a moral construct or not, all you need do is answer these
simple question for yourself.

1. Is it good justice for a soul to be able to sin for only 120 years and then have to suffer torture for 12000000000000000000000000 + years?

2. Is it good justice for small or mediocre sinners to have to bear the same sentence as Hitler, Stalin and other genocidal maniacs?
This might actually include God if you see Noah’s flood as God using genocide and not justice against man. Pardon the digression.

Punishment is usually only given to change attitude or actions and cause the sinner to repent.

3. Is it good justice to continue to torture a soul in hell if no change in attitude or actions are to result?

4. If you answered yes to these questions, then would killing the soul not be a better form of justice than to torture it for no possible good result or purpose?

Is hell a moral construct or not?

Please explain your reasons and know that ---just because you think God created it ---does not explain your moral judgment. It is your view I seek and not God’s as no one can speak for God.

Regards
DL

FreeWillAnomaly
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Gnosticism is an ancient deception and is full of idol worshipers. There are many gnostics who worship themselves, and many who worship spiritual entities that are not God.But, it is your choice to choose that path. If it is what you choose, it is what you choose. Be warned, there is no salvation through knowledge though. Only by faith.

edit on 5-2-2014 by FreeWillAnomaly because: (no reason given)

Well thats a load of manure; an ancient deception, to be in gnosis is to be in truth; no idol worshiping least of all themselves (I dont worship myself and I am Gnostic). "Be warned there is no salvation through knowledge". THAT IS THE ONLY PATH TO YOUR TYPE OF SALVATION. The rest of us are probably not that concerned. If I had a belief system I suppose I would pray for your soul (every other Tuesday but only on the 29th Feb.leap year).

vethumanbeing

FreeWillAnomaly
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Gnosticism is an ancient deception and is full of idol worshipers. There are many gnostics who worship themselves, and many who worship spiritual entities that are not God.But, it is your choice to choose that path. If it is what you choose, it is what you choose. Be warned, there is no salvation through knowledge though. Only by faith.

edit on 5-2-2014 by FreeWillAnomaly because: (no reason given)

Well thats a load of manure; an ancient deception, to be in gnosis is to be in truth; no idol worshiping least of all themselves (I dont worship myself and I am Gnostic). "Be warned there is no salvation through knowledge". THAT IS THE ONLY PATH TO YOUR TYPE OF SALVATION. The rest of us are probably not that concerned. If I had a belief system I suppose I would pray for your soul (every other Tuesday but only on the 29th Feb.leap year).

edit on 5-2-2014 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)

It is an ancient deception that teaches salvation through knowledge. From there, the different gnostic beliefs vary slightly - but generally the idea is that you save yourself through hidden knowledge (gnosis) and attain godhood. Sometimes without the last part, but most of the time. Regardless, there is no salvation through knowledge. Only by faith. Faith can bring knowledge, but knowledge is dangerous if you are unprepared for it. In fact, the first time humans sinned the choice they had was between - faith in God or knowledge. Haha, coincidence? Doubt it.

"You have trusted in your wickedness and have said, 'No one sees me.' Your wisdom and knowledge mislead you when you say to yourself, 'I am, and there is none besides me.' " Isaiah 47:10

Anyways, if you don't believe in salvation through knowledge, and you have no belief system - sorry, you are not a gnostic. Gnosticism is a belief system (with a definition).

FreeWillAnomaly
vethumanbeing
FreeWillAnomaly
reply to post by Greatest I am

FreeWillAnomalyGnosticism is an ancient deception and is full of idol worshipers. There are many gnostics who worship themselves, and many who worship spiritual entities that are not God.But, it is your choice to choose that path. If it is what you choose, it is what you choose. Be warned, there is no salvation through knowledge though. Only by faith.

VeteranHumanBeingWell thats a load of manure; an ancient deception, to be in gnosis is to be in truth; no idol worshiping least of all themselves (I dont worship myself and I am Gnostic). "Be warned there is no salvation through knowledge". THAT IS THE ONLY PATH TO YOUR TYPE OF SALVATION. The rest of us are probably not that concerned. If I had a belief system I suppose I would pray for your soul (every other Tuesday but only on the 29th Feb.leap year

FreeWillanomolyIt is an ancient deception that teaches salvation through knowledge. From there, the different gnostic beliefs vary slightly - but generally the idea is that you save yourself through hidden knowledge (gnosis) and attain godhood. Sometimes without the last part, but most of the time. Regardless, there is no salvation through knowledge. Only by faith. Faith can bring knowledge, but knowledge is dangerous if you are unprepared for it. In fact, the first time humans sinned the choice they had was between - faith in God or knowledge. Haha, coincidence? Doubt it.

Gnostics do not have to 'save themselves' and from what exactly do you have to be saved from? Its not even within the realm of my thinking that I am *or have* to be saved; again from WHAT EXACTLY, AND TO WHOM? Faith or belief systems are false mechanisms to control the human populace. Faith in what? I understand the idea of many systems of beliefs that hug it and nurish it and lie about this paradigm to mankind. I do not have to have 'faith' in 'something' because Im in a state of Gnosis (I KNOW WHATS GOING ON); creator wise and the way the universe describes itself.
Oh I see, trust God 'invisable' before you trust your own best intuitive instincts.

FreeWillAnomoly"You have trusted in your wickedness and have said, 'No one sees me.' Your wisdom and knowledge mislead you when you say to yourself, 'I am, and there is none besides me.' " Isaiah 47:10

Fell on deaf ears here. You quote bible scripture, I will quote "Dick and Jane; Their Adventures With Spot" or "Alice In Wonderland".

FreeWillAnomolyAnyways, if you don't believe in salvation through knowledge, and you have no belief system - sorry, you are not a gnostic. Gnosticism is a belief system (with a definition).

.

Again, what do I need salvation from exactly. I despise belief systems and big organized religions. Gnosticism is a state of mind; or AWARENESS. You should know this as you picked your name, FreeWill is associated with 'conscious awareness'. If you are an anomoly to that precept, so be it.

FreeWillAnomaly
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Well, it is an amazing experience to be called out of the world to be sure. Things you did not understand before about the world become clear to you. But as for taking pride in it?

I wouldn't recommend it. It depends on how you say pride, though.I agree that a lot of the pride you see in many Christians is sin. Many who claim to be Christians do not even follow Jesus, for that matter. If it is the kind that makes you feel conceited - that is very bad. There is an acceptable form of spiritual pride, but that is not it.

If you read the book of Job, it would appear that this was the last folly of one of the few righteous men to have walked the earth. God said he wanted to still his pride so he handed him over to Satan.

It's a great book, and one of the oldest in existence. If I remember right, it is almost as old as the Dead Sea Scrolls.

edit on 5-2-2014 by FreeWillAnomaly because: (no reason given)

Job is good book to read for sure but it does not show Job with pride. In fact God called him perfect. Satan then says that without all the good stuff God had given him, it was no wonder that Job never cursed God. God wanted to prove Satan wrong and that was the bet.

I like that book because it shows God in his true light. That being that he is not immune to Satan and is in fact a sinner. Job 3;2 has God complaining that Satan moved him to destroy (people) without cause. He shows that Satan controlled/moved him. It also shows how Christians have corrupted their morals by then forgiving God his sin while they would condemn a man for doing exactly what God did.

This eloquent clip shows that concept well.

www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL

FreeWillAnomaly
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Gnosticism is an ancient deception and is full of idol worshipers. There are many gnostics who worship themselves, and many who worship spiritual entities that are not God.

But, it is your choice to choose that path. If it is what you choose, it is what you choose. Be warned, there is no salvation through knowledge though. Only by faith.

edit on 5-2-2014 by FreeWillAnomaly because: (no reason given)

Lazy Christians say that but Jesus himself says that we would know you by your works. Listen to Paul and ignore James and Jesus though.
Paul is more important to you than Jesus.

As to Gnostics idol worshiping. Only a fool would say such a thing as we recognize the godliness of all men so if we are idol worshipers, we idol worship all of God's souls.

Gnostic Christians are perpetual seekers so you clearly do not know what you are talking about or just lying to discredit me.

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am


perpetual seekers? seems a bit lusty