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How will you get yourself into heaven? On your own merit or via a scapegoat?

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posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 12:54 PM
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If I get into heaven it will only be because God wants me there AND I accepted the invitation.




posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 12:56 PM
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jmdewey60
reply to post by Greatest I am
 

"Jesus died to judge the sinful and satanic world system"

Pfft. He created it by your beliefs so he would have to find it perfect.
I don't know what "beliefs" you may be referring to.

Scriptures do say that all of God's works are perfect so they either stay that way or God made them defective.

Your choice.
I think that the universe at large is "defective".
That may not be the best term for it.
"Not perfect" may be better if you want to use the terminology of biblical times.
"Perfect" would mean that it had reached maturity where all of its goals had been met.
I see the universe itself as being in a relatively early state where things are not quite all the way it should be yet.

Either way, for God to punish us for being the way he created us would be unjust and we would reject his unjust judgement.
Life may seem like a punishment to a lot of people.
Yesterday I was having a conversation with a man in a wheelchair. I had no idea why he was but he ended up telling me, not in too much detail but that he was a finish carpenter working on a scaffold and had fallen off.
Was his being mostly paralyzed from the waist, down, a punishment?
It was just one of the possibilities when taking a substantial fall, which would include death.
We live in a cause and effect material world and I believe that at some point we elected to participate in such a world and things can and will happen.

We are the supreme beings here. Not an absentee God.
Ultimately we are responsible for our own fates, in a long term, group sort of way, but God has added things into the mix to help out with that.
edit on 4-2-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)


You give an absentee God credit for what men do.

See where God is.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Where does your God make his abode?

Gnostic Christianity is the wave of the future. You are a worthy candidate and should check it out. It is a thinking man's religion. Idol worshiping sheep are not allowed.

Regards
DL



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 01:03 PM
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mysterioustranger
reply to post by Greatest I am
 

A scapegoat is someone you "blame" for something. IF they get you into HEAVEN....you'd THANK THEM!


Would you teach your child, let's say at school, to use another child as a scapegoat?

If not, as most moral adult answer, --- why would you think God would teach you such a vile and immoral practice and expect you to use it?

Who deserves punishment? The innocent or the guilty?

Regards
DL



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 01:07 PM
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jheated5
Simple I plan to sacrifice myself for the life of another... There's my free pass to heaven right there, have you seen the movie "this is the end"?


Good. You follow the right Jesus who said pick up your cross and follow me.

You are not a normal Christian. Good for you.

What kind of Christian are you and why are you not a Gnostic Christian. You seem to thing a cut above the average sheep and that is what Gnostic Christians are.

Regards
DL



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 01:14 PM
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FreeWillAnomaly
reply to post by Greatest I am
 



There are no good people. They don't exist. There are righteous people, but even they were evil once. This world is fallen and Satan is the god of this world, according to God.

Well, there was that one guy a long time ago - but they nailed him to the cross. That was God's Son. So far, there has been a total of 1 person who never sinned.

If all humans were not evil, God's Son would have never been tortured to death.

Since all humans are evil, God sent his Son to be tortured by us so that we would have a chance at redemption.

That doesn't mean we are redeemed of our own merit, nor by scapegoating. We can not blame Satan for our fall, because we chose to disobey God when we still had full knowledge of the choice and free will. So there is no scapegoat. We are to blame. Well, actually, our descendants are to blame originally, but we have all chosen to sin after that.

I understand the premise of this thread and it is void of logic given the context of the situation. Seems like you just don't like the situation you are in. I can't blame you for that, I don't like it either. But I am not going to create a SCAPEGOAT and blame God for my situation, and neither will I blame Satan. I am the one who sinned, and repeatedly at that.

Another thing - YOU do not define morals. YOU do not define good and evil. Truth is not relative. To believe as such is to believe you are a god, and if you believe that - God help you.


I am and he does.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.


As to Jesus not sinning. That is a lie.

Hebrews 5:8
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Regards
DL



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 01:19 PM
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FlyersFan
If I get into heaven it will only be because God wants me there AND I accepted the invitation.



Where does your God hang out? Anywhere like where Jesus said he did?

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Regards
DL



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 01:30 PM
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Greatest I am

jmdewey60

I think that Jesus was against such a thing and was happy enough to have a meeting hall where believers could gather and praise god with prayer and song and readings from good books on the holy life that we should be following..


+ 1

When two are gathered --- anywhere ---in my name I am there.

Regards
DL


Exactly. That's Church.

People always tell me I don't go to Church.

I tell them I go to Church all the time!



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 01:32 PM
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Greatest I am

FlyersFan
If I get into heaven it will only be because God wants me there AND I accepted the invitation.



Where does your God hang out? Anywhere like where Jesus said he did?

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Regards
DL


Yes, the Spirit of God is in us. The Kingdom is sown in us when we answer the call.

He said the Kingdom is all around us, we just can't see it.

To be in Heaven is to be with God.

But that does not make you God, if that is your line of thought. Satan has been tricking people into thinking that for a very long time.

Also remember that Heaven is a place. There are multiple usages of the phrase.

To say that Jesus sinned is terribly false. Jesus was perfect and blameless. I can get plenty of Scripture to show you that.

You are playing a dangerous game.
edit on 5-2-2014 by FreeWillAnomaly because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 01:39 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 


In worshiping yourself as God and saying that Jesus sinned, you are engaging in Idol worship and denying Jesus is God's only Son.



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 01:41 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 

Where does your God make his abode?
I think that God exists in this universe, like we exist in this universe, meaning an integral part of it, and not like somehow standing outside of it and just looking into it.
I understand "universe" as what the name implies, everything.



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 01:47 PM
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reply to post by FreeWillAnomaly
 

Before I respond to all of that, I have to ask if you believe the Word of God to be the Bible.

I do know these things to be true, but first I need to know if you believe the Word. Please don't make the translation/interpretation argument, because the Word is interpreted by God (God said this in the Bible - that the Bible is of no human interpretation and you learn things precept on precept line upon line). Humans can not interpret the Bible (although many have tried). Yes, translated by humans, but we can get to that in a minute if you want. Do you believe the Bible is the Word of God?
Do you think so?
Or do you think that there are certain men going about lecturing on their interpretation of the Bible and them somehow having more authority than what I see the Bible clearly saying?
Interpreting the Bible is not making up a whole theological system that only uses certain words from the Bible, as if that lends it credibility, meanwhile using those same words in a way the the original writers never intended.

. . . precept on precept line upon line . . .
OK, this little quote has nothing to do with creating theological systems.
This was talking about what we would call today, stacking the courts.
For an example there was an overwhelming outcry over the attempt of W. Bush appointing his personal lawyer to the Supreme Court.
If he had been king, rather than an elected official, no one could have complained without the fear of possibly loosing their heads.
The words of the prophet that the quote is taken from is an admonishment to kings not to do that because it brings injustice on the land because a true and fair judge has to learn this skill over a long period of time, line upon line.

. . . the Bible is of no human interpretation . . .
This is a misquote, if you are saying that the Bible actually says that.
edit on 5-2-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 02:00 PM
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FreeWillAnomaly

Greatest I am

jmdewey60

I think that Jesus was against such a thing and was happy enough to have a meeting hall where believers could gather and praise god with prayer and song and readings from good books on the holy life that we should be following..


+ 1

When two are gathered --- anywhere ---in my name I am there.

Regards
DL


Exactly. That's Church.

People always tell me I don't go to Church.

I tell them I go to Church all the time!


I hear you and have been there.
I am rather fundamental in my beliefs now.
Never thought I would say that when I had no belief and before my apotheosis.

Regards
DL



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 02:02 PM
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Greatest I am
Where does your God hang out?

anywhere he wants to.



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 02:04 PM
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FreeWillAnomaly

Greatest I am

FlyersFan
If I get into heaven it will only be because God wants me there AND I accepted the invitation.



Where does your God hang out? Anywhere like where Jesus said he did?

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Regards
DL


Yes, the Spirit of God is in us. The Kingdom is sown in us when we answer the call.

He said the Kingdom is all around us, we just can't see it.

To be in Heaven is to be with God.

But that does not make you God, if that is your line of thought. Satan has been tricking people into thinking that for a very long time.

Also remember that Heaven is a place. There are multiple usages of the phrase.

To say that Jesus sinned is terribly false. Jesus was perfect and blameless. I can get plenty of Scripture to show you that.

You are playing a dangerous game.
edit on 5-2-2014 by FreeWillAnomaly because: (no reason given)


Jesus had to purify himself as we all do as all are born in sin according to the myth.

Hebrews 5:8
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;


Was Jesus not a man and are all men not born with original sin?

If Jesus was just a God then his death is meaningless as God cannot die.

If Jesus had anything of man in him then he must have had original sin. Right?

Strange that Jesus said that the kingdom of God was within us. What makes you think he would lie to us?

Regards
DL
edit on 5-2-2014 by Greatest I am because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 02:10 PM
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FreeWillAnomaly
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


In worshiping yourself as God and saying that Jesus sinned, you are engaging in Idol worship and denying Jesus is God's only Son.


God can beget as many Sons as he wants.

Right?

And who said anything about my worshiping myself?

I am not an idol worshiper like you are.

You named your God, I di not name the one I found.

Regards
DL
edit on 5-2-2014 by Greatest I am because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 02:12 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 


You have fallen for an ancient deception. If you want to know the truth, seek it. I can't help you. At this point we are going in circles.

If you believe you are God, and you worship who you believe to be God, you are your own god and therefore engaged in idol worship.

I know all about gnosticism. This stuff is not new. You have free will to seek the truth. I can tell you with certainty that you haven't found it.
edit on 5-2-2014 by FreeWillAnomaly because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 02:14 PM
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jmdewey60
reply to post by Greatest I am
 

Where does your God make his abode?
I think that God exists in this universe, like we exist in this universe, meaning an integral part of it, and not like somehow standing outside of it and just looking into it.
I understand "universe" as what the name implies, everything.


So this part of scriptures you do not believe?

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Too bad for you my friend. All your seeking will be in vain I fear if you do not go within.

Regards
DL



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 02:15 PM
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FlyersFan

Greatest I am
Where does your God hang out?

anywhere he wants to.


Then you have yet to find him. A shame that.

Regards
DL



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 02:19 PM
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FreeWillAnomaly
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


You have fallen for an ancient deception. If you want to know the truth, seek it. I can't help you. At this point we are going in circles.

If you believe you are God, and you worship who you believe to be God, you are your own god and therefore engaged in idol worship.

I know all about gnosticism. This stuff is not new. You have free will to seek the truth. I can tell you with certainty that you haven't found it.
edit on 5-2-2014 by FreeWillAnomaly because: (no reason given)


If you have found God and no longer seek God, then you are the idol worshiper and I see that you did not deny that fact.

I do have a free will to seek but you do not. No idol worshiper can seek. You must settle for the genocidal son murdering prick that you think is God.

Regards
DL



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 02:19 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 

. . . yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
My understanding would be that Jesus demonstrated his obedience, rather than something like that at an earlier point obedience was not one of his characteristics.
edit on 5-2-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



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