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the real amerika

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posted on Feb, 1 2014 @ 07:52 PM
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amfirst1
LOL capitalism created the middleclass. People have been brainwashed to accept the failed socialism system that created the largest mass of poor people.


No - the large middle class (there was always a small 'merchant' class) came about because of Union organizing (socialism) and the New Deal policies (conservative would again call it socialism) of FDR which continued to benefit the majority until the 70s and the advent of 'trickle' down, supply side, nonsense.




posted on Feb, 1 2014 @ 08:07 PM
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slunteri
reply to post by Another_Nut
 


Capitalism is a fine system so long as its inhabitants are what economics terms 'rational actors'. Rational actors balance cost and product and ultimately purchase the best product at the lowest price. Cost is a simple factor to evaluate. Evaluating the elements of a best product is more nuanced, but some exemplary choices many American idiot exceptionalists make is big box over local, foreign over domestic, vile over virtuous.

Unfortunately, our country is filled with idiots, probably some on here bashing capitalism from their Apples. Idiots and capitalism mix like gas tanks and British Petroleum.


Those rational actors also require information. In order to act rationally they require full disclosure of information about a proposed transaction. Capitalism, as currently practised, restricts the flow of the very information required to make any rational decision otherwise known as Caveat Emptor, 'let the buyer be ware'. In fact without complete information and disclosure, the only rational act is to not participate in the transaction. We don't have that option in many of our daily transactions because they are required for survival and hence are, by definition, exploited.

You want solutions - a solution:

movetoamend.org...

Capitalism, per se, isn't the problem. It's the disparity in 'strenght', 'power', 'influence' between Capital (big business interests) and Labor (the rest of us) as demonstrated so well by the game of Monopoly.

For a brief time there was something of a balance between the two 'powers' of capitalism but the system itself is such that any move away from balance creates a reinforcing loop that allows one side to overwhelm in short order the other.

Face it - the system just 'don't work'.
edit on 1-2-2014 by FyreByrd because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 1 2014 @ 08:34 PM
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reply to post by Hoosierdaddy71
 


Before you get all Jingo on us, you should probably understand two things:

1) Disagreeing with America, her policies and her government is MORE "American" than waving a flag and shouting "love it or leave it!"

2) We do NOT practice free-market capitalism in the US, by any stretch of definition or imagination. Our capitalism is built on a crony / favor model, and is precisely designed to minimize new competition in favor of established models, money and markets which are owned and controlled by the same forces that decide who we get to vote for during an election.



posted on Feb, 1 2014 @ 08:41 PM
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reply to post by FyreByrd
 


Beautifully put.

Who sits down to play a game of Monopoly six hours in, when only one player remains he owns all the properties / utilities and money, and has to loan the bank money -- at interest -- so that the bank can issue you (the new player) a grub-stake?

A sucker.



posted on Feb, 1 2014 @ 10:12 PM
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Another_Nut
reply to post by Hoosierdaddy71
 


O i am trying but when you are poor its not easy

So i tell you what Mr moneybags

You send me the 5k i need for passports and plane tickets

And ill send you a pic from my new place

See when you are working to just make ends meet there is no discretionary spending money to do as you say

And i have been trying. Trust me
edit on pm220142807America/ChicagoSat, 01 Feb 2014 19:36:02 -0600_2u by Another_Nut because: (no reason given)



You tell me I'm wrong and ask for a handout,,,, to funny.

Ten years ago I risked everything I had to start a business. I busted my butt and it paid off. I never said it was easy or guaranteed. Sorry for your situation but I don't see how any other economic system would change that situation. Again I say, show me a better system.



posted on Feb, 1 2014 @ 10:42 PM
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reply to post by Hoosierdaddy71
 


O so naive

I don't want your money i want you to understand the situation

But you go straight to the money

Because that's what you've been taught

Never mind anything else

The point is even when workin 40+ hours a week there is no money

And now that i have lost my job and home

What am i?

Do you really not see this?

I don't take handouts

I never have

I have been basically on my own since 16

As soon as i could drive i started working

Do you really not get what i am saying?

You said you risked almost everything

Well what if you have nothing to risk?

How would you have started that company?

Really i done even know how to talk to somebody such as yourself who is so out of touch



posted on Feb, 1 2014 @ 10:58 PM
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amfirst1
LOL capitalism created the middleclass. People have been brainwashed to accept the failed socialism system that created the largest mass of poor people.


This is because both systems, the "very real" capitalism and the "very real" socialism are pretty much the same.

You know that IRONICALLY, today in the two most "communist/socialist" countries, China & Russia there live the most billionaires?
We have many poor here and many poor there. You don't see the illusion?

The principle is the same: A small minority of people in power (industry/politics)...and a majority of people being exploited who are the basis that those few people come into (and are kept) in power. Both systems are interchangeable.

Also..one can hear constantly how the socialist system has "failed"...obviously as someone who witnessed the collapse of several communist countries I would agree...but then how comes that China today has all the money while we're more or less broke?

Also...do you think the socialist systems failed...and the western system did not?



posted on Feb, 1 2014 @ 11:02 PM
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reply to post by Another_Nut
 


Do you think I never had a low paying job? I started at minimum wage just like everyone else. My first full time job was $6hr.
Does that sound like I was living in luxury? Don't tell me i don't know what it's like to scrape by week to week because I surely do. My wife worked at a fabric store for a long time and she was not being overpaid. She got a job as a bank teller and has worked her way up to manager. She knows that it's not easy. I can tell you from experience that hard work and making good choices in your life do pay off in the long run.



posted on Feb, 1 2014 @ 11:05 PM
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Yreply to post by Hoosierdaddy71
 


Out of touch

I will waste no more posts on you

Good day



posted on Feb, 2 2014 @ 01:47 AM
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Hoosierdaddy71
reply to post by Another_Nut
 


Do you think I never had a low paying job? I started at minimum wage just like everyone else. My first full time job was $6hr.
Does that sound like I was living in luxury? Don't tell me i don't know what it's like to scrape by week to week because I surely do. My wife worked at a fabric store for a long time and she was not being overpaid. She got a job as a bank teller and has worked her way up to manager. She knows that it's not easy. I can tell you from experience that hard work and making good choices in your life do pay off in the long run.


Honey, I hate to tell you this, but it's not all about you.

Your hard work paid off. Good for you. As others have said many don't have the talent, or temperment, or freedom to risk it all for a dream. Many more do and fail.

You may be very skilled but you were also lucky. And I do hope it pays off for you in the long run.



posted on Feb, 2 2014 @ 06:06 AM
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reply to post by NoRulesAllowed
 


Socialism and Communism do not equate together.... they are separate systems.

I hate to say this, but, if we practiced Communism the way Marx envisioned it, true Communism, we would all be fine, no-one would want, no-one would need, and no-one would go without.. However, once the human element is introduced into the system, you know the old adage, Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely...

Communism unlike Socialism , doesn't allow for any private ownership of business or real property (Personal property is another thing) It provides equally for all peoples regardless of their ability to work or not work and provides all basics without cost to the person. In theory it was supposed to be the workers paradise, in practice, well we saw what happened to the Soviet Union.

China is a strange one, people don't realize the REASON China suddenly has all this money to burn, one reason, in 1998 the UK handed back control of Hong Kong to China, and while Hong Kong is considered an SAR (Special Autonomous Region) under China's One Country, Two System's rule, you bet your bippy that a lot of that capital is flowing to the motherland....



posted on Feb, 2 2014 @ 10:54 AM
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reply to post by vkey08
 




Communism unlike Socialism , doesn't allow for any private ownership of business or real property (Personal property is another thing) It provides equally for all peoples regardless of their ability to work or not work and provides all basics without cost to the person. In theory it was supposed to be the workers paradise, in practice, well we saw what happened to the Soviet Union.


Explain the property tax. It doesnt allow for real property ownership, it guaruntees buy to rent and everyone has access to it. Isnt that communism?



posted on Feb, 2 2014 @ 11:05 AM
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Nephalim
reply to post by vkey08
 




Communism unlike Socialism , doesn't allow for any private ownership of business or real property (Personal property is another thing) It provides equally for all peoples regardless of their ability to work or not work and provides all basics without cost to the person. In theory it was supposed to be the workers paradise, in practice, well we saw what happened to the Soviet Union.


Explain the property tax. It doesnt allow for real property ownership, it guaruntees buy to rent and everyone has access to it. Isnt that communism?


I guess you don't understand the Property Taxes in the US that well then.. Property taxes are levied so as to provide necessary services, like fire, police, schools, et al. Towns cannot function without some sort of income coming in, and if you left it to the population they wouldn't pay anything towards these services, so it's really a fee to have the town provide them. You still own your property but the town (or city) you live in taxes that ownership based upon it's market value.. Not unlike a sales tax....

So no that is not communism, it's a town collecting money to keep essential services rolling.

The whole notion that we can't own our property comes form some 1970's Sovvie Cit ramblings of someone that misread how the statutes are written..
edit on 222014 by vkey08 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 2 2014 @ 11:12 AM
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reply to post by vkey08
 


Ok, lets define communism.
meriam webster
a way of organizing a society in which the government owns the things that are used to make and transport products (such as land, oil, factories, ships, etc.) and there is no privately owned property

If I am taxing my citizens property. I am taking from them first of all, what is not mine to take without directly taking the property. (I take currency in its place) and I am then GIVING that currency (from a source that does not generate income) to someone else who does not have it.
When a person does not pay this tax, what happens?



posted on Feb, 2 2014 @ 11:17 AM
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Nephalim
reply to post by vkey08
 


Ok, lets define communism.
meriam webster
a way of organizing a society in which the government owns the things that are used to make and transport products (such as land, oil, factories, ships, etc.) and there is no privately owned property

If I am taxing my citizens property. I am taking from them first of all, what is not mine to take without directly taking the property. (I take currency in its place) and I am then GIVING that currency (from a source that does not generate income) to someone else who does not have it.
When a person does not pay this tax, what happens?


You still are not understanding the difference between a tax and non ownership. By your logic, anything you get in the store should not be taxed either... as it doesn't belong to them, taxes are separate from Political systems.. They are, unfortunately the way towns and cities (and the states and Federal Govt) make money and pay their employees.

And yes you can have your property seized for non payment of taxes, but then you agree to that when you move anywhere, so no it still is not communism.. it's Taxes.. and failure to pay them comes with a penalty, it doesn't mean you don't own it, it just means that as a condition of owning it, you must comply and adhere to the laws of the municipality and state you live in.

Or would you rather not ot have fire protection, police protection, ems, schools, et al?



posted on Feb, 2 2014 @ 11:30 AM
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vkey08

Nephalim
reply to post by vkey08
 


Ok, lets define communism.
meriam webster
a way of organizing a society in which the government owns the things that are used to make and transport products (such as land, oil, factories, ships, etc.) and there is no privately owned property

If I am taxing my citizens property. I am taking from them first of all, what is not mine to take without directly taking the property. (I take currency in its place) and I am then GIVING that currency (from a source that does not generate income) to someone else who does not have it.
When a person does not pay this tax, what happens?


You still are not understanding the difference between a tax and non ownership. By your logic, anything you get in the store should not be taxed either... as it doesn't belong to them, taxes are separate from Political systems.. They are, unfortunately the way towns and cities (and the states and Federal Govt) make money and pay their employees.

And yes you can have your property seized for non payment of taxes, but then you agree to that when you move anywhere, so no it still is not communism.. it's Taxes.. and failure to pay them comes with a penalty, it doesn't mean you don't own it, it just means that as a condition of owning it, you must comply and adhere to the laws of the municipality and state you live in.

Or would you rather not ot have fire protection, police protection, ems, schools, et al?


LOL you work for a city somewhere dont you.
This is not my logic. This is the way it is.

You cannot ever own property if you keep paying for it. No matter the justification. Taxes are not separate from political systems. They are a direct result of political systems.

You cannot have your property siezed by GOVERNMENT for non payment of taxes if so, This proves the point. That is communism. Government now owns property and took it in attempt to provide for a service provided by government. See the loop.

Tell me, what do you think about human farming? Which is to say, citizens used as resource by government or even societies?



posted on Feb, 2 2014 @ 11:56 AM
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Apparently I've upset someone; wasnt my intention. My apologies Mr.s Vicky
No harm meant and thank you for sharing your information.

The point I ultimately come to is America has never actually had something of its own creation. It has taken from everyone else, from every corner of the earth as its own and used it as its own. I do not think we as a nation have our own political system, let alone a fair system of law or even taxation as of yet.
These systems are not of our making. They (systems) even as a culmination of systems, belong to history, not actual freedom. She is however, a work in progress.
edit on 2-2-2014 by Nephalim because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 2 2014 @ 12:00 PM
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Nephalim

You cannot ever own property if you keep paying for it. No matter the justification. Taxes are not separate from political systems. They are a direct result of political systems.

You cannot have your property siezed by GOVERNMENT for non payment of taxes if so, This proves the point. That is communism. Government now owns property and took it in attempt to provide for a service provided by government. See the loop.

Tell me, what do you think about human farming? Which is to say, citizens used as resource by government or even societies?


Property taxes are indeed communist. Property is regularly seized and resold because of tax liens. I understand that a reasonable property tax helps pay for things we have come to depend on, like the Fire Department. However I think there is a better way than force those who 'own' their land to essentially pay rent to the government for the land that they 'own.' It would be one thing if a reasonable amount of property tax was levied but that is not the case.

For an example, my parents land is taxed at around $10k a year. If they wanted to rent out their house for $1200 a month(about a fair market value) the majority of the rent they collect would go straight to property taxes. That is unreasonable in my opinion. $833 a month for property taxes is unreasonable! Home ownership in the US is a complete rip-off in most areas.

Humans are a commodity, there are some far out conspiracy theories that go on to say that we are trading like stocks. Here is a little youtube video that sheds some light on this theory: (skip to about the 3:00 mark if you do not want to watch the entire thing)

Your birth certificate is a security on the stock exchange! (~4:00-4:15)









edit on 2-2-2014 by jrod because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 2 2014 @ 12:00 PM
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Hoosierdaddy71

Another_Nut
reply to post by Hoosierdaddy71
 


O i am trying but when you are poor its not easy

So i tell you what Mr moneybags

You send me the 5k i need for passports and plane tickets

And ill send you a pic from my new place

See when you are working to just make ends meet there is no discretionary spending money to do as you say

And i have been trying. Trust me
edit on pm220142807America/ChicagoSat, 01 Feb 2014 19:36:02 -0600_2u by Another_Nut because: (no reason given)



You tell me I'm wrong and ask for a handout,,,, to funny.

Ten years ago I risked everything I had to start a business. I busted my butt and it paid off. I never said it was easy or guaranteed. Sorry for your situation but I don't see how any other economic system would change that situation. Again I say, show me a better system.


Well, you come to the real heart of the matter, didn't you. Most of the people complaining do not know what real hard work is, and are unwilling to work 2 or 3 jobs to save their money, and start a business. They don't know what real hard work is, and don't even try to educate themselves, and improve their lot. They just want something to whine about, and call anyone who calls them out, "Mr. Moneybags", or "Richie Rich".

They are just sad, jealous people, who don't want to put any effort into changing their own lives. They want everyone else to change theirs, so they don't have to do the work.



posted on Feb, 2 2014 @ 12:08 PM
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reply to post by jrod
 


That stock market crap is just more Sovvie nonsense, it has zero basis in real fact... sorry.....



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