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tomoe723
If Evolution doesn't claim or expound on this yet, then does it implicitly assume this for its mechanics to hold true?
Ghost147
Nope! it wouldn't be very good science if we made assumptions like that. As I showed before, however, it doesn't necessarily matter how life began, in order for evolution to exist.
However, it would require that whenever life did begin (or at least to our earliest fossil records), it was extremely primitive, as all of our earliest fossil records show such primitive life.edit on 3/2/14 by Ghost147 because: (no reason given)
tomoe723
tomoe723
If Evolution doesn't claim or expound on this yet, then does it implicitly assume this for its mechanics to hold true?
Ghost147
Nope! it wouldn't be very good science if we made assumptions like that. As I showed before, however, it doesn't necessarily matter how life began, in order for evolution to exist.
However, it would require that whenever life did begin (or at least to our earliest fossil records), it was extremely primitive, as all of our earliest fossil records show such primitive life.edit on 3/2/14 by Ghost147 because: (no reason given)
I was under the impression that for evolution to take place, especially the branching out to different species, one has to assume that they all originated somewhere common--maybe the mother/father of all living things? the precursor to all life? Isn't that an implicit assumption for evolution's mechanics to hold true?
Ghost147
Not entirely. For all we know, there could have been many different initial beginnings of life, perhaps even all at the same time. The 'beginning' that lead to what we see today simply was the one that survived. However, this all still involves Abiogenesis, directly. It doesn't necessarily matter how many primitive organic materials formed, or even how. Evolution is only in effect, and only describes, what happens once life is already in existence. That is the most important difference.
They do directly occur immediately after the other, which is where the confusion tends to come in play. A very understandable misconception.
tomoe723
Ghost147
Not entirely. For all we know, there could have been many different initial beginnings of life, perhaps even all at the same time. The 'beginning' that lead to what we see today simply was the one that survived. However, this all still involves Abiogenesis, directly. It doesn't necessarily matter how many primitive organic materials formed, or even how. Evolution is only in effect, and only describes, what happens once life is already in existence. That is the most important difference.
They do directly occur immediately after the other, which is where the confusion tends to come in play. A very understandable misconception.
Then how is this different to the ideas that the Genesis story provide? Essentially, God created every creature probably all at the same time, and after the great deluge, only a handful survived. I don't take the bible literally, but the ideas are essentially still there.
Does Evolution claim that all living things came from one tiny organism which evolved over hundreds of millennia and separated into different varying creatures?
If Evolution doesn't claim or expound on this yet, then does it implicitly assume this for its mechanics to hold true?
Then how is this different to the ideas that the Genesis story provide? Essentially, God created every creature probably all at the same time, and after the great deluge, only a handful survived. I don't take the bible literally, but the ideas are essentially still there.
iterationzero
reply to post by tomoe723
Then how is this different to the ideas that the Genesis story provide? Essentially, God created every creature probably all at the same time, and after the great deluge, only a handful survived. I don't take the bible literally, but the ideas are essentially still there.
Modern evolutionary synthesis includes a vast amount of evidence for common descent and the existence of the last universal common ancestor (LUCA) -- the most recent organism from which all life on Earth descended. One could argue that a deity simply created that organism, but all of the evidence suggests that there was a LUCA and that not that all creatures became present on Earth at the same time and some happened to perish in a global flood.*
The phylogenetic diagrams for those two cases would look very different. The diagram for the case made by modern evolutionary synthesis would look like the one on this page -- tracing common ancestors back to the LUCA. The diagram for the case made by Biblical literalists would resemble a forest of phylogenetic trees, with each tree representing a "kind" and diversity only occurring within that tree, basically turning creationism into a subset of evolution -- God created the "kinds", and they have evolved from there. The latter case ignores genetic evidence, morphological evidence, geographic distribution, and observations about natural and artificial selection which strongly suggest that there was a LUCA.
* Ignoring the fact that there is no evidence of a global flood.
tomoe723
reply to post by Ghost147
...The only thing that left me stumbling was the abiogenesis part. Current medical/bio-genetic studies still rely on the model organisms for experimentation and assume that if certain cures for a disease or cancer works for mice, it should also work for humans. But come the human testing, it ultimately fails.
tomoe723
reply to post by Ghost147
This part led me to question deeply about evolution as a whole, and wondered if the premise was wrong. If the premise was found to be a mistake, will it be a domino effect tumbling down the rest of evolutionary mechanics? Or does evolution behave like a modular system where each aspect can stand on its own independent of the others' substance, only taking into consideration the end output like how a true modular system works.
tomoe723
I'm sorry but I don't buy into phylogenetic diagrams. The way these diagrams are constructed is all based on theory, the mathematical construction may be sound but it's still based on the assumption that there are correlations to patterns within the genetic codes.
Ghost147
First off, I don't. Secondly, there is no such thing as an "atheist doctrine" or a "humanist Manifesto". Lastly when did I ever suggest even a remote relation to what you just said in any of my previous posts?
SECOND: Promises of immortal salvation or fear of eternal damnation are both illusory and harmful. They distract humans from present concerns, from self-actualization, and from rectifying social injustices. Modern science discredits such historic concepts as the "ghost in the machine" and the "separable soul." Rather, science affirms that the human species is an emergence from natural evolutionary forces. As far as we know, the total personality is a function of the biological organism transacting in a social and cultural context. There is no credible evidence that life survives the death of the body. We continue to exist in our progeny and in the way that our lives have influenced others in our culture.
Ghost147
Actually, most people who accept the Theory of Evolution are also religious people. The existence of Evolution does not disprove a god or anything supernatural. However, it does go against very specific religious ideologies, such as anything that would believe in a young Earth.
Who is to say that a god or anything supernatural wasn't influencing Evolution the entire time? It could very well be possible, despite being speculative.
So, as you can see, that is not my position.
Ghost147
Considering Evolution has nothing to do with how life came into existence, any test you are referring to in that manner, doesn't actually apply to what evolution really is. So, a test like that failing, would have nothing to do with the functions we see in evolution.
“There is a theory which states that many living animals can be observed over the course of time to undergo changes so that new species are formed. This can be called the ‘Special Theory of Evolution’ and can be demonstrated in certain cases by experiments. On the other hand there is the theory that all the living forms in the world have arisen from a single source which itself came from an inorganic form. This theory can be called the ‘General Theory of Evolution’ and the evidence that supports it is not sufficiently strong to allow us to consider it as anything more than a working hypothesis. It is not clear whether the changes that bring about speciation are of the same nature as those that brought about the development of new phyla. The answer will be found in future experimental work and not by the dogmatic assertions that the General Theory of Evolution must be correct because there is nothing else that will satisfactorily take its place.” - Kerkut, G.A
Ghost147
The big bang theory has nothing to do with how the universe was triggered into existence, and doesn't actually disallow a god being the trigger for it. By the way.
Also, what the heck does that have to do with anything anyway? The topic is not on the creation of the universe, or the creation of Life. The topic is solely based on the naturally occuring phenomena of Evolution, which Only pertains to the process of variation through reproduction when life already exists. That is it.
Why do you continue to go back to these topics after it has already been explained multiple times that it has no actual relation? (this is an actual question that I would like you to answer, I'm extremely confused on the matter)
Ghost147You have never seen this, and will never see this, because Evolution never claims this. Speciation doesn't mean "turn one thing into a completely different thing". It is a slow process that eventually leads into further and further distancing between the original ancestor and its branching, evolving, latter species.
Ghost147
I'm afraid that statement isn't very accurate. Mice are used in experiments and research for many reasons. They are inexpensive, breed quickly, have short life spans, are relatively docile, adapt to new environments quickly, are small and inexpensive to keep, and - most importantly - have a similar genetic code to humans. Of course, this is not an identical match; however, this does make their use for experimentation extremely valuable. Another interesting fact is that many laboratories are using genetically altered mice that have inserted genes that would effect a human being, that previously weren't in mice at all. The mice used for research are also purebred to have almost identical DNA from other members within that breed, which allows for more controlled experiments.
Mice and rats are used for 95% of all animal-based research because of all these qualities. If the outcome of these tests "ultimately fail" - as you've stated - wouldn't we want to fix that kind of issue? 95% of all the multiple billions of dollars being put into tests that never seem to show any positive verifications?
We use mice for many reasons, the biggest reason is because it is in fact very accurate.
Of course, if you could verify your claim, I would be happy to see the statistics!
Ghost147
There actually isn't any mathematics involved in Taxonomic Classification. Also, if it is a "Scientific Theory", then the word theory isn't what you're implying. A Scientific Theory is backed up by facts through observation; not to exclude the continuous confirmation of those explanations within those observations.
Theory, in general, is quite different. Where a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural and subject to experimentation, would describe that form of "Theory"; the one you implied.
An honest misconception.
The Phylogenetic diagrams are quite sound, I assure you. You must remember, also, that they are separate time scales. You could make a phylogenetic diagram based on animals that are currently alive, and their direct genetic backgrounds (parents, grandparents, great grandparents). In fact, your own personal family tree would be a Phylogenetic Diagram.
The only difference is that these ones implement a larger time-scale. It surely isn't a proposed explanation without experimentation. There is much more than simply looking at looking at bones or DNA that leads to this extended form of Taxonomy.edit on 4/2/14 by Ghost147 because: (no reason given)
Science is still a form of religion as it requires faith. Faith that scientific method has been applied appropriately and correctly, and faith in the teachings and findings of others.
My definition with regards to the domain of this conversation was stated in the second line. I never said science was religiously faithful,
Actually, you did. When you state that "Science is still a form of religion as it requires faith." it implies that you are saying that Science is a religion because it requires religious faith. If all it takes is non-religious faith to make a religion, then everything would be considered religious. Of course, we all know that this is not the case. It takes religious faith to make something religious (among other things). Clearly, with this new quote above, you do not believe this. In which case, it would mean that science is, in fact, not religious.
Looks to me you will have to be (3. Extremely scrupulous or conscientious: religious devotion to duty.) and (1. Adhering firmly and devotedly, as to a person, cause, or idea; loyal. 5. Consistent with truth or actuality) In order to follow the scientific method? Im not disagreeing with what u say, just how far do we need to waffle?
No, that is not how things work. I could say the same thing about breathing. I have to be devoted to consciously open my lungs and take in oxygen. I have to be devoted to the cause and idea that I need to do this action in order to live, and adhere firmly to that action. This does not make the action of breathing a religion. Once again, what you are presenting is a form of misunderstanding. You do indeed need to follow the rules in order for a hypothesis to be considered valid. Just as you need to keep under the speed limit to be considered driving legally. These actions both require to be followed if you are to respectfully conduct a scientific experiment, or to drive legally. This "devotion" is not a religious one. Nor is the "Duty". Nor is adhering firmly to those instated rules. Once again, you're misinterpreting the definitions.
Yes and I more or less state that in the following paragraph concluding with: Of course I take faith in other peoples work because it seems to fit with my own meagre observations.
I understand that you do so out of non-religious faith. I was simply explaining how you yourself could conduct those experiments yourself, there for making it faithless entirely.
So no, I'm not claiming to be more intelligent than anyone else here. It has become evident that I am more knowledgeable about this particular subject. Thus a fact that I know more about this subject. Not a fact that I am more intelligent.
If you were to look at my previous posts, it has already been verified. I have clearly demonstrated a strong grasp of the information pertaining to Evolution, the Theory of Evolution, and the Scientific Method. You can verify this further for yourself, by examining the content within my posts and searching for the information from any scientific book or source that has also been proven as reputable.
I have faith that when I turn my door handle, the door will open. In this sense, nearly everything requires an implication of faith.