The Fire of God's Wrath and Judgment (Old Tes.) and The Water of God's Love and Mercy (New Tes.)

The Old Testament, is about God giving rules to the world. If they are not obeyed, the person who disobeyed is judged and the consequence is death. God revealed himself to Moses as "The Burning Bush". In Ezekiel, there was a vision of The Presence and Glory of God appearing as an Amber Flame (Ezekiel 1:26). Fire is also associated with Hell, punishment from God. God is called a Consuming Fire (Deuteronomy 4:24), a God of Justice (Isaiah 30:18), and Vengeance is his (Deuteronomy 32:35).


The New Testament, is about God washing away sins. The Holy Spirit is called "The Living Water" giving eternal life (John 4:14 ). The Holy Spirit gives salvation not through 'righteousness' but through forgiveness/mercy (Titus 3:5). Forgive other and God will forgive you (Matthew 6:14). Treat others in the way you would like to be treated, this sums up The Law of God and everything The Prophets taught. This is The Narrow Path that allows you to enter The Kingdom of Heaven (Matthew 7:12-13).

Which path do you take?

The Judgment path of The Fire of Judgment where you feel like you are doing the right thing seeking out revenge and the violence and war gets bigger and bigger?

or...

The Love and Mercy path of The Living Water where you forgive others and life becomes easier with less drama?

reply to post by arpgme


Living water all the way bro!

Some might say it's the weak person's response, scared response but it makes one stronger because to contain anger, not react to it actually takes more strength than just letting loose. And there are many learning steps along the way after. So all in all it's the only way to go.

reply to post by arpgme


You're entirely correct! The human mind originally used it's primal instincts but the test is to fight that and forgive; that's the biggest test and battle of all! IMHO.

The natural first instinct for when someone wrongs you is to fight or seek revenge, that is, to judge or make judgement; that's the easiest pathway to follow; the harder is to stop, collect oneself and forgive.

When you're annoyed at someone for whatever reason,that deep anger or hate that manifests in the chest area (for me at least) like heartburn or reflux only hurts you and not the person you're seeking revenge against. The anger or hate consumes the hater, not the hated. It is imperative to not let your focus be on fear, anger or hate but be on love, forgiveness and openness.

I actually wrote a blog post a week or so ago entitled Happiness, Health, Love and Wealth where I discuss my ideas on this and how it has helped me.

I'm seeking the truth at present and while I have never been baptised or joined any religion, I am finding truth, more and more these days, with Christianity. By the way, I used to be totally against the idea of religion and God back in my day as a scientist but then life happened and my eyes opened up to new possibilities.

Anyway, I'm starting to slide a bit OT so back to my reply; I do indeed agree with you that love and forgiveness is the choice and try to not judge others; it's hard and I still find myself doing it but that's the battle I fight.

ETA: Mods, if you don't want my link here just let me know and I'll remove it and perhaps create a new thread with the content of the post.


ETA: Removed link to my blog as I'm sure it violates Ts & Cs so instead I will create new post here with the content later.

In some seminaries the distinction between the Old testament and the new is explained by the phrase,

"The New Testament, in which God was in a much better mood."

Jesus is said to baptize with fire though.

Matthew 3
"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

This is John the Baptist speaking. If you want the water, follow John.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

John 4:14
"But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

John 7:38
"Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water."

reply to post by arpgme


So there seems to be a contradiction here. Either he baptized with water or fire, it can't be both.



I always found this painting of John the Baptist by Da Vinci pretty interesting, especially his hand gestures. Maybe Da Vinci was telling us something about John? He is kind of an enigma within the bible.

And as for John 7:38, you have to wonder why Jesus is depicted with the Sacred Heart which has flames coming from it if everyone who believes in him will have rivers of water flow from their heart.

The old testament represents the law, represents justice according to God
Kill and be killed, sin and face the consequences of your actions.
The ultimate cost of sin is destruction and there is no alternative.
Its the natural balance of the broken world due to Adams sin.
The law must be adjudicated and destruction is the penalty of sin

Jesus is revealed in the NT and he steps into the sinners place and accepts our judgement and punishment if we acknowledge Him
The law still stands, Christians dont face the full burden of the law as they should be in Jesus, with the dwelling Spirit inside.
Yes the OT law is valid and will be used to judge the world

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

3NL1GHT3N3D1
I always found this painting of John the Baptist by Da Vinci pretty interesting, especially his hand gestures. Maybe Da Vinci was telling us something about John? He is kind of an enigma within the bible.

Very interesting. I found another picture of him and his finger is pointing upward. There is a ribbon in his hand which says "Ecce Agnvs Dei" which means "Behold The Lamb Of God". This is a reference to Jesus. He is pointing upward as a prophecy of Jesus.

you have to wonder why Jesus is depicted with the Sacred Heart which has flames coming from it if everyone who believes in him will have rivers of water flow from their heart.

Because that's the way the painted him. He also looks like a European in most paintings, and most likely, that isn't true either.

reply to post by borntowatch



I think you missed the point.

reply to post by arpgme


Well, water puts out fire. John baptized with water and Jesus with fire, that points toward John being "greater" than Jesus.

Luke 7
28 I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

Even Jesus was born from a woman, so it seems as though even Jesus believes John is greater than himself.

And for another picture:



Again Da Vinci and his hand gestures. These are at odds with the other painting, he is pointing away from himself and to the ground as opposed to at himself and to the sky.

This painting is also called "Bacchus: formerly St. John the Baptist". If you look at some of the attributes of Bacchus, a.k.a. Dionysus, you will see some parallels between him and Jesus. A few examples are that Bacchus died and rose from the dead just like Jesus, was the god of wine whereas Jesus turned water into wine, and both have something similar to the Eucharist as part of their rituals.

So John the Baptist was repainted to be Bacchus who shares attributes with Jesus. I see something there personally, especially with the hand gestures.

You also see Mary Magdalene carrying a skull in depictions of her, Mary was supposedly Jesus' wife and John got his head cut off. So maybe Mary is holding Johns head and that is pointing toward something?

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Very interesting that John is pointing away from himself and pointing to the ground, while in the other one, he was pointing to the sky. It's like a hidden message saying "don't be deceived".

It's strange that they say Jesus will baptize by fire because he speaks about The Holy Spirit being like water, washing away sins, being "The Water of Life". We have to remember, that not everything in the bible is 100% accurate.

For example, Judas committing suicide by hanging himself in The Gospels, but in Acts, he committed suicide by jumping off of the cliff. We have to look for the hidden wisdom. Jesus spoke in metaphors so that only those who are 'seeking' the kingdom of heaven will find it.

But for everyone who wants to go to heaven, he left this very important message, that for some reason doesn't get quoted that often:

Matthew 7:12-13
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

People try to redefine the "narrow gate" to mean going to "Church" or accepting Jesus as a "God", when Jesus clearly says here that The Narrow Path is Compassion (treating others as you'd want to be treated).

Some people want to believe there was and still is a Jesus. What has he ever done for you. me or anyone

No Jesus is as ficticous and unempowering as Image of Jesus in the picture above.

reply to post by arpgme


Exactly! If everyone followed his message, specifically the golden rule, heaven would be on Earth. There would be no war because everyone would love each other, there would be peace on Earth. We are the key to heaven, only we are taught to believe otherwise.

My take on the hand gestures is that in the first picture he is saying "I am God" while in the second he is saying "Other is Satan", which when you look at the fire and water symbolism, it seems to point toward John being the living waters, not Jesus.

I actually have a thread on this theory HERE if you care to look at it. I don't want to put this thread any more off-topic than it is.

ETA: I just realized our avatars are similar, having running water. Nice.

borntowatch
The old testament represents the law, represents justice according to God
Kill and be killed, sin and face the consequences of your actions.
The ultimate cost of sin is destruction and there is no alternative.
Its the natural balance of the broken world due to Adams sin.
The law must be adjudicated and destruction is the penalty of sin

Jesus is revealed in the NT and he steps into the sinners place and accepts our judgement and punishment if we acknowledge Him
The law still stands, Christians dont face the full burden of the law as they should be in Jesus, with the dwelling Spirit inside.
Yes the OT law is valid and will be used to judge the world

Yes, and all Christians will still be called to account before God for our transgressions/sins, the same Old Testament God. The thing that will save us is that we will have been forgiven through the Grace dispensed by Christ and our faith in Him.

That's why Christians still seek to live the best lives they can because being called on the carpet before God isn't likely to be a comfortable experience for even the best of us.

The difference between us and others is that we have salvation where others must stand on strength of their ability to hold to the Law alone.

"Judge not lest you be judge, for by the measure you mete out, it will be measured to you."

I take this as the best advice you can give a person. We all know the futility of trying to completely stop judging others. Instead, we should focus on judging ourselves by the measure of righteousness that Jesus laid bare, that is, to treat others as you would want to be treated. If you are aware of your own ability to either succeed or fail at treating others this way, then you are still committing judgment, but it is righteous judgment, because it is not judged by the standards of men but by those of God.