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Deciphering the Pagan Stones

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posted on Nov, 12 2014 @ 04:16 PM
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a reply to: Wifibrains

Saturn was big news to the Romans, who celebrated Saturnalia at the winter solstice:




The Neoplatonic philosopher Porphyry took an allegorical view of the Saturnalia. He saw the festival's theme of liberation and dissolution as representing the "freeing of souls into immortality"—an interpretation that Mithraists may also have followed, since they included many slaves and freedmen.[85] According to Porphyry, the Saturnalia occurred near the winter solstice because the sun enters Capricorn, the astrological house of Saturn, at that time.[86] In the Saturnalia of Macrobius, the proximity of the Saturnalia to the winter solstice leads to an exposition of solar monotheism,[87] the belief that the Sun (see Sol Invictus) ultimately encompasses all divinities as one.


That seems very Pictish, the day when the sun is reborn and the promise of Spring. It is reminiscent of Cerridwen and her cauldron, the Dagda and his cauldron where life is reborn and rejuvenated. Could the Dagda have personified Saturn?
I like this Saturn line of thinking, it seems to fit...




posted on Nov, 12 2014 @ 04:28 PM
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a reply to: beansidhe

Ugh forgive this hard polytheist from stepping in.

I am never sure why people persist in equating every deity with every other similar deity? Especially some of the ones from the Germanic and (in this case) Celtic cultures.

An Dagda was a title (just like An Morrigan is). The "good god". He was good at things (rather than well behaved, and he's certainly not that
)

But yes An Dagda is a very similar deity to Saturn of the Romans. Its not surprising given that the Celtic languages and Latin were closely related. They are Indo-European after all. But similar is not the same. An Dagda is very similar to Odin on many levels. Mind you Lug of the Irish, Llew of the cymri, and Lugus of the Gauls are all quite similar too, except also quite different.

Sorry its just an axe to grind I have. Honestly I doubt my pre-Christian Gaels thought of An Dagda as "oh that's Saturn personified". They tended to see deities as separate beings, hence hard polytheists.

/rant



posted on Nov, 12 2014 @ 05:05 PM
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a reply to: Noinden

Hello Noinden, no forgiveness required!

I'm thinking about the planet Saturn and it's position in the sky, and I was wondering if the Picts would have seen Saturn? Is it visible, or important, does it mark anything? You'll have to excuse me, I like a tangent and I just assume everyone can read my mind.


And I remembered the Romans liked Saturnalia and then read that Porphyry had made an astrological connection and so..yes, ok Saturn could be seen in the sky and was known about in the right time period. I doubt the Picts would have compared the Dagda to the Roman's Saturn, I agree with you entirely, but I wondered if they thought of the planet as the Dagda? I like the idea that Lugh was a comet personified and we've seen earlier how the constellation Scorpio became the Kelpie, how Bootes could be Hu Gadarn and so on.

So in following a similar theme, could the planet Saturn have had any meaning? The cauldron of regeneration/rebirth is, as you know, a prominent theme and we were thinking about his symbol in particular (triple disc in the centre):



It's a good axe, keep grinding it! Apologies for the confusion.



posted on Nov, 12 2014 @ 05:12 PM
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a reply to: beansidhe

Ahh ok.... that's the problem with Saturn the deity and Saturn the ball of gas in the outer solar system


I'm not a big fan of equating deities with celestial bodies either
Mind you its because there is little evidence surviving for my gods (The Tuatha de Dannan) and other Indo-European cultures.

Also the Picts likely did not follow An Dagda, they were not a Gaelic speaking tribe...well ok they probably were not. Sure its a quick hop across the water to Eire, but beyond a few obvious cognates (Lug and Llew in particular) they did not share similar deities. This again could be lost lore however. When the Gaels (The Scottie raider who formed Dál Riata they were already Christianised). I'm not completely discounting it, I just think its going to be a similar deity not An Dagda.

He's got his own little "astrological" thing going on as he lived under the mound at New Grange
His son was a smart arse too.

I also feel a lot of those stones are "pre Celtic" in age and cosmology.
edit on 12-11-2014 by Noinden because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 12 2014 @ 05:34 PM
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a reply to: Noinden

You've just hit the nail on the head with 'lost lore', and that's my bugbear! We have no stories of the Dagda here in Scotland, but there must have been an equivalent. The Cailleach is close maybe, but no cauldron. The Dagda was an awful lot more fun, too! We've very few stories of the Picts left -if any - so all we can do is look to our neighbours and compare notes.

And yes agreed again, I also think that many of the symbols are pre-Celtic. There's an enormous gap in time but...



is so, so similar to...



that it's hard not to come that conclusion.



posted on Nov, 12 2014 @ 05:53 PM
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a reply to: beansidhe

Again its the problem of the peoples above the wall in the Big Island. The picts were PROBABLY Celtic, though the surviving language fragments are full of non Indo-European bits. Its a hard one.

The Cailleach is very similar to the washer woman at the ford aspect of An Morrigan, and I'd not cross either of them (and I'm an adherent of An Morrigan) but also not that similar in other ways.

Its the whole problem with equating deties people run into. Lugh and Llew are similar, Lugus is more like Odin than the younger two (yet Odin was probably not an influence at the time given where the Germanic tribes were). Ogma and Ogamus (Eire and Gaul) are very similar, though again the Gaulish one is older (like Lugus compared to Lug and Llew)

Its frustrating with the Picts, as they were obviously a powerful people. But of all the peoples of the Islands ... they got forgotten the most.



posted on Nov, 12 2014 @ 06:56 PM
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originally posted by: beansidhe
a reply to: Wifibrains

You should, dowse and see where you end up!


The site is marked by the ‘Minster Triangle’, the triangle is formed by three ancient healing wells. Excavations of the wells found artifacts that proved the wells...


That's interesting, the wells formed a triangle. It reminds me of this:



I don't know why, but this stone seems to suggest that the triple disc is cutting the crescent (moon?) in three.



Been look at this again. Just something about it. Just gots to be something.

Anyway.....we have talked about equinox and solstice. Do you remember a poster some time back said he thought it was the solstice , I said equinox and we both had good reason. So looking at both positions something seemed incomplete with both explanations or suggestions.

So I will cut to it.

The "triangle" lines come into to the earth on the QUARTER DAYS between Solstice and Equinox......those being Beltane and Samhain. Both these points are marked by the Gibbous Moon and the Balsamil Moon which are both represented in the shape presented in the Pict stone. Although in one case it is seen as quarter moon shining and in the other quarter moon darkened.

Gibbous and Balsamil moons


The point the two lines hit represent the quarter 1/4 of earth but it wouldn't look as fancy and may have been two much work to put one on the other side of the earth glyph. So its sort of abbreviated but points to the quarter point.

So I am suggesting that the larger round circle is the earth. The smaller circles represent the Solstice and the Equinox. The lines hitting the face of the earth represents the Beltane and Samhain 1/4 days which were most important. This theory by the way encapsulates all three of the general theories and observations on this here thread concerning the question about this design.

As a disclaimer.....these points in time are a geometric fact and are not in my case an observation made out of any sort of accommodation to or sympathy with the pagan aspects attached to these days. The observation of days in relationship to the moon were in fact given to the Israelites as feast days and such but these foolish people attached the ways of the wicked Canaanites to these preceding's such as Beltane and Samhain. For witch crime among others they were cast out of the land to wonder the face of the earth.

And wow, ok ect now we have had a bit of a sermonette by Logarock enjoy your deciphering! And to the department in Scotland that is said to have the responsibility of deciphering these stones......get your head out of your ass and don't make me get up off the couch again.
edit on 12-11-2014 by Logarock because: n



posted on Nov, 12 2014 @ 07:38 PM
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a reply to: Noinden


Yes and wow. We could draw here from the Celts of North Western Spain/North Portugal even though Latin has worked its disastrous effects on the Galician. LOL

Scot/Galicia Connection....Mutual History with Ireland/Scotland/Galicia

Hell its not that far away.

Comparison of old Scotish and Galician Dance




posted on Nov, 12 2014 @ 07:47 PM
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a reply to: Logarock

Yeah well given the shared ancestry of those groups (both being speakers of a Celtic language ...)



posted on Nov, 12 2014 @ 08:36 PM
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a reply to: Noinden

Yeah I didnt mean to imply that it was a mystery or anything. I brought that up because this Lugh person figures in there.



posted on Nov, 12 2014 @ 08:43 PM
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a reply to: Logarock

Lug person? .... Yah Lug one of the Irish Tuatha de Dannan (divine beings), though for Galatians (given their Gaulish origins) it would have likely been via Lugus.



posted on Nov, 12 2014 @ 09:12 PM
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a reply to: Noinden

Yea right. Also spelled Lugh some places. Lugus yea. Depending on how its pronounced could be Lew. Its a big job chasing these words around. Take Galicia. They say Gali-th-ia but spell it Galicia. Like what the hecks a C for anyway.



posted on Nov, 12 2014 @ 10:15 PM
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a reply to: Logarock

Lug is old Irish Lugh is modern Irish. Just as it was Ogma and Ogam are Oghma and Ogham today
Not that this is an area I am a subject matter expert in or anything


You are putting English rules on a language that is related but not the same.

Take the Irish for hello Dia dhuit (DEE-a GHWIT) dh is ghw, it also means "may god bless you".

English is from the Germanic branch of the Indo-European lanaguages (and a bloody mongrel) while Irish is one of the Celtic branch, and they separated a while back


If you really want to mess with your language perceptions go looking into Proto Indo-European, its all reconstructed, but the word for host, guest and ghost (which was once meaning stranger) all derive from a single word *ghosti (the * means its reconstructed) it also a term that speaks to the responsibility of the guest and the host behaving (and we use it that way in a modern neopagan relgion I am part of to speak of the relationship with Deity and follower).



posted on Nov, 12 2014 @ 10:35 PM
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a reply to: Noinden


Yea I have done that. Entomology is a gas. And you should know that while as in the case you pointed out these things are very interesting in their ancient meanings but word transfer out from original and don't often carry the connotations.

But you did shed some light in the Welsh word for hotel....Gwesty. Yea ask someone for a transliteration of a word and see what you get.

How much of the meaning here really translates into English? How much of the old meaning really has in bearing for a usable translation? To the Welsh or English translation. For all intents and purposes all I need to know it that its a hotel if I am traveling. And all language has in some case many meanings for a word depending on context. Many. A fuller understanding here is just useless.




posted on Nov, 13 2014 @ 01:10 PM
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a reply to: Logarock

When you go between languages you can loose a lot in translation. However language in the same language family are more likely to be able to find equivalents than from completely foreign ones. There area however words that are "not easily translated". Then again there was the time when German had the massive compound words that described exactly what it was .... those were bad days to be learning German (and being graded on the spelling of the words
or so my German teacher told me).


I'm not sure I touched much in Cymric (Welsh), but I am guessing it was the Irish pronunciation thing?
edit on 13-11-2014 by Noinden because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 13 2014 @ 02:12 PM
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Take a look at this drawing....



At just befor and after the 9 and 3 0clock marks. You can see saturn is in its triple disc formation, a "v" points towards what could be the moon or earth, some sort of equinox, celestial marker involving saturn?



posted on Nov, 13 2014 @ 03:20 PM
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a reply to: Wifibrains

I like it Wifi!!
Where's that from?



posted on Nov, 13 2014 @ 03:23 PM
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posted on Nov, 13 2014 @ 03:38 PM
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originally posted by: Wifibrains
a reply to: Gordi The Drummer

Here.

galileo.rice.edu...


Cool Stuff! That Triple disc depiction of Saturn is near Identical to the images we've seen on the stones?

So, from the linked article... Saturn was associated with the metal Lead? Lead mining maybe???
...and Time?? and the Grim Reaper?? Death???

The plot thickens!



posted on Nov, 13 2014 @ 06:34 PM
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originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: Logarock




I'm not sure I touched much in Cymric (Welsh), but I am guessing it was the Irish pronunciation thing?



Well you were talking about "ghosti" .......the Welsh word for Hotel is Gwesty. Sure looks and sounds like a cognate, indo.




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