Deciphering the Pagan Stones

a reply to: muzzleflash

Flash, just for the record I always read your posts as you have participated in a good number of threads I have visited over the years. You are an important member to a good many. One of a handful of longstanding members that still post on a regular basis. Your always appreciated like seeing an old friend in a crowd.

Found some interesting reading here, re. links between Welsh, Gaelic and Hebrew, Celts, Scythians, Galacians, Thracians and even Spartacus, who has been brought up a number of times in this tread. It just draws upon many coincidences and somewhat obvious but little known language similarities. Just the musings of a blogger you might say, alas I found some of it interesting.

Click Here

a reply to: Ramcheck

I am fairly confident that due to the prevalence of waterways for travel and trade historically, that the Danube and the Rhine are a very reasonable possible route to consider. Also keep in mind that one can travel across Europe in only a few years by ancient standards.

Thanks for the link I appreciate it.

a reply to: Ramcheck

I like Chiefio. That's an excellent blog and he's doing his homework. That haplogroups show commonalities with Thrace is compelling stuff too. Also his language studies of the Hebrew/Welsh/Gaelic link and verb structure.

We're finding these connections, he's finding them, countless others are 'finding' them - why do we keep dismissing it as myth? That's a rhetorical question, but you know, what's going on? The alternative is the other written sources whereby the Picts et al were backward savages who possibly had furniture (I read that in a research paper - we know they knew how to make a chair because there's one carved on a stone. That's true - can you believe that?).
That map you put up is interesting - the 'appointed' place and the 'stone cut without hands' - Jacob's pillow (stone of destiny, maybe?)
We have reason to think the Druids either learned from or were descended from the Israelite priests Log spoke about. What else did they teach, I wonder? I'll try to find out.

a reply to: beansidhe


Here is a vid that contains some of the problems with the study of the Celtic migration and origins. Its the habit of some to isolate one tribe or two. Here the narrator calls the "nortic strain that fathered" migration having fused into the Celto/English. The problem with this view is that it doesn't consider the huge efforts of migration and expansion by the other tribes elsewhere. The history of Britain and Ireland are overshadowed in history when in fact the high King of Britan and Ireland sat in power at Donegal with holdings in Scandinavia. Quite the sea people before the Vikings really.

a reply to: beansidhe

There are a number of good blogs out there trying to cover this. That we were able to find the same ends in general just shows how obvious it may be to anyone that looks into it well. A study of the Celts will eventually brush up against the "lost tribes of Israle" idea. Some chaff at this but there is plenty of good evidence for this.

If we go back to the Hebrew histories that are preserved we find some points of their national identity. According to their prophets they were to be scattered among the nations as a "battle ax" bringing down kingdoms, becoming a great people of many nations and kings. The northern tribes known as Israle proper and carried the birthright. Ephraim was the leading tribe. More later. Apparently the whole lot were call the Cameri-sp- by the locals down in Assyria. Apparently were the Welsh get their name Cymry or Cymri.

a reply to: Logarock

A good video, nonetheless.
I like the idea that wave after wave of people came, over time each one bringing the same, but modified stories and fashions of the era. It makes life more complicated, but it seems more realistic. I know what you mean, focusing on one or two tribes misses the whole picture.

I've been reading a blog too, that Shiloh suggested earlier - Last of the druids.
The author is leaning towards astrological meanings for most of the symbols, which I'm not convinced of for all of them, but he comes up with a pretty interesting theory about the comb symbol:

In Welsh mythology, the story of Culhwch and Olwen features a golden comb; it is one of the objects demanded by Ysbaddaden the Giant and is eventually retrieved from behind the ears of the Boar King , the Twrch Trwyth. If this particular character has celestial origins, as suggested, then it is possible that the comb, and also the razor and scissors for that matter, are also connected to objects in the night sky, or at the very least seen as items linked to the otherworld.

However, one idea that seems to have been overlooked more recently, may well help shed further light on the presence of combs on Pictish stones and was published in the New York Times in September 1888:

THE MYSTERY OF THE COMB – It would be curious to know what mystic meaning our forefathers attached to so simple an act as combing the hair. Yet we learn from old church history that the hair of the priest or Bishop was thus combed several times during divine service by one of the inferior clergy. The comb is mentioned as one of the essentials for use during a high mass when sung by a Bishop, and both in English and foreign cathedrals they were reckoned among the costly possessions of the church. Some were made of ivory. Some were carved, others gemmed with precious stones. Among the combs specially known to history are those of St. Neot, St. Dunstan, and Malachias. That of St. Thomas the Martyr of Canterbury is still to be seen in the Church of the Sepulchre at Thetford, and that of St. Cuthbert at Durham Cathedral.

Mermaids are still depicted as combing their hair, it seems to have a special significance to them. And from Orkneyjar a story of a king who combed his hair:

In the legend of the Belted Knights of Stove, there is one element that seems strangely out of place.

The section that relates to the incognito king combing his hair by a stone brings little to the narrative and instead appears to be a later addition.

Could it have been a later "insertion" to conveniently explain the origin of the name of a well-known local landmark? I wonder whether the Sandwick stone's epithet had anything to do with the fabled visit of King James V of Scotland.

Instead, could the stone have been associated with a "king" long before the alleged events of the 16th century?

The Belted Knights of Stove legend is made up of two, seemingly separate, strands of folklore. The main tale relates how John Kirkness came to be made a knight, while the other casually throws in the fact that there was a "King's stone" in Sandwick at the time.

Hair combing could be seen as an act of purification, of a way of preparing oneself to speak with the otherworld, and hence the practise (possibly) carried over into the church as a way of purifying oneself before speaking with God.

a reply to: Logarock

If we go back to the Hebrew histories that are preserved we find some points of their national identity. According to their prophets they were to be scattered among the nations as a "battle ax" bringing down kingdoms, becoming a great people of many nations and kings. The northern tribes known as Israle proper and carried the birthright. Ephraim was the leading tribe. More later. Apparently the whole lot were call the Cameri-sp- by the locals down in Assyria. Apparently were the Welsh get their name Cymry or Cymri.

Cameri -Kumri -Cimmeri these are names that crop up consistently. I still favour the serpent on our stones to represent Dan rather than a constellation, I have to say. If there's one thing you could say about the Celts, it would certainly be that they scattered themselves among nations.

Cimmerians

The Cimmerians or Kimmerians (Greek: Κιμμέριοι, Kimmerioi) were an ancient Indo-European people living north of the Caucasus and the Sea of Azov as early as 1300 BC[1] until they were driven southward by the Scythians into Anatolia during the 8th century BC. Linguistically they are usually regarded as Iranian, or possibly Thracian with an Iranian ruling class.


Later Cimmerian remnant groups may have spread as far as to the Nordic Countries and the Rhine River. An example is the Cimbri tribe, considered to be a Germanic tribe hailing from the Himmerland (Old Danish Himber sysæl) region in northern Denmark.[13]

The etymology of Cymro "Welshman" (plural: Cymry), connected to the Cimmerians by 17th century Celticists, is now accepted by Celtic linguists as being derived from a Brythonic word *kom-brogos,[14][15][16][17] meaning "compatriots", (i.e. fellow-Brythons as opposed to the Anglo-Saxons).

So not everyone agrees, but since there is no definitive evidence either way - we can't go back in time to find out for sure who's right - then one theory IMO is as good as another.

a reply to: beansidhe

Brittish Israelite people use the Saxon(Scythian) lineage to Saaca or Sakya coming from Isaac, being Y-Saac

Pan babylonian people use the Saxon lineage to Saaca coming from Sakyamuni tribe. That is who produced the Buddha, and also Raama. (Hislop's Two Babylons, or Faber's Origins of Pagan Idolatry). They trace this family to the family of Nimrod.

I used to think that these were mutually exclusive. But now not so much. I think they are connected, and are the same.

Abram is Ab-Ram. Ab is Father, Ram is Raama. Father of Raama, who is Isaac or Y-Saac.

The connections between the druids, the Indians and the Hebrews are very strong I think.

a reply to: zardust

The author from Last of the Druids (link above in reply to Logarock) is keen on a Vedic connection, and I've read other writers note the similarities between Gaelic and Indian songs.

It certainly offers one explanation as to why the druids appeared to be practising an Abrahamic religion - they were! Alan Wilson is another researcher who links the cymry and the Kumri. That's an interesting thought you have about Abraham/Raama - I've not come across that one.

a reply to: beansidhe

I've never come across it either. I'm premiering it here and now on your thread I've checked the links between the words, and it is the same word in Sanscrit and Hebrew. The place Raamah has a lot of interesting connections.

a reply to: zardust

Aaah, nice one. This is the place to premiere Israelite firsts, so best place for it I say.
I was thinking there I'd missed yet another well known chunk of biblical knowledge (it's my forte).

Seriously though, the last of the druids site might interest you, he makes some intelligent observations about the similarities between the Vedic and (in his opinion) Pictish astrological systems

a reply to: Ramcheck

Oh no, wait. I'm misinterpreting things here. Not the Stone of Destiny, something else. I'm not sure why this was on your map, really. It's a passage from Daniel (2:45):

Just as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God has made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and its interpretation sure.

The writer here explains this as "The stone cut out without hands, represented the kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ, which should be set up in the kingdoms of the world, upon the ruins of Satan's kingdom in them. This was the Stone which the builders refused, because it was not cut out by their hands, but it is become the head stone of the corner."

Biblehub

Whether or not that's a reasonable translation I cannot say. Who drew the map you showed? Were they Scottish?

originally posted by: Logarock
a reply to: beansidhe

The northern tribes known as Israle proper and carried the birthright. Ephraim was the leading tribe. More later. Apparently the whole lot were call the Cameri-sp- by the locals down in Assyria. Apparently were the Welsh get their name Cymry or Cymri.

The word Cymri has been known for a long time to have come from the Brythonic word combrogi, which means Fellow Countrymen. It was used to identify the people of the south and the Yr Hen Ogledd or people of the Old North, ie Scotland, but not the Cornish or Irish who came to these islands later. It signified they were of the same people.

a reply to: beansidhe

I wasn't certain where that map came from, it wasn't on that blog I was just looking at it around the same time as reading the blog and thought it was a nice tie-in with the blog post. However I have tracked it down again and find that it comes from this American site, pertaining to migrations of the house of Israel.

American Wisdom Series

a reply to: beansidhe

The throne of King David (Coronation throne in Westminster abbey) as you know did or does house the Stone of Destiny.

originally posted by: beansidhe


So not everyone agrees, but since there is no definitive evidence either way - we can't go back in time to find out for sure who's right - then one theory IMO is as good as another.

This isn't good. Doesn't sound like you. Sounds like one of those pat canned deals! Naturally everyone is not going to agree. One theory is never as good as another except at a dead end. We all have to believe that or there is no need to go on.

originally posted by: urbanghost

originally posted by: Logarock
a reply to: beansidhe

The northern tribes known as Israle proper and carried the birthright. Ephraim was the leading tribe. More later. Apparently the whole lot were call the Cameri-sp- by the locals down in Assyria. Apparently were the Welsh get their name Cymry or Cymri.

The word Cymri has been known for a long time to have come from the Brythonic word combrogi, which means Fellow Countrymen. It was used to identify the people of the south and the Yr Hen Ogledd or people of the Old North, ie Scotland, but not the Cornish or Irish who came to these islands later. It signified they were of the same people.

Yea the Welsh still say or ask on occasion if one is a comrade. That word although recorded in Syrian doesn't have to be a Syrian word but could be a use of what the people called themselves. All those Israelitish tribes had been herded together after the fall of Northern Israle. They were all of the same family yet with strong tribal identifications so may have took on a word for countrymen as a whole.

Here is a Syrian record of the King of Israle Jehu, son of Omri, submitting to Shalmaneser III of Assyria (858-824 BC). Omri is pronounced Huu-mri. Just as a note look how close Cymri/Huumri are. Hum and Cum/ ri and ri. Close enough to be considered a cognate at a glance anyway. And the Hen and the Huun though some hole the pronunciation Hu-um-ri.



Above we see the Syrian winged disk front and center.


We find the Syrain style winged disk showing up on the Pict Stones at least once.



The disk represented here is a direct link to Syria. I challenge anyone to find the Syrian style disk outside of the Syrian/Babylonian area save for right here in Scotland.

originally posted by: urbanghost

The word Cymri has been known for a long time to have come from the Brythonic word combrogi, which means Fellow Countrymen. It was used to identify the people of the south and the Yr Hen Ogledd or people of the Old North, ie Scotland, but not the Cornish or Irish who came to these islands later. It signified they were of the same people.

Brythyonic languages (insular Celtic) have the same root (proto-indo European) as Scythian, Iranian, Yiddish -all the Indo European languages. What we're wondering here is what's behind the obvious?
There are undoubtedly links to other cultures on these stones, whilst being uniquely and stoically Pictish. The Cymry seem to have a big part to play in this, as it would seem that the Picts would be their allies in times of war, and that Arthur I was able to pull together back-up from Pictland.

a reply to: Ramcheck

Wow, that's a kind of in-your-face-site, is it not (might explain my hook nose though, lol!)?

These beliefs, these 'myths' people carry are so important to us, because they are prevalent and because they mean something to the people who passed them on to their children. You know, I was reading last night again, more from Ralston McLeod (who was and still might be a professor of Celtic studies at Glasgow Uni) about how the Vatican have documents pertaining to the Virgin Mary's bones being buried under a Welsh church in Anglesey.
It's a long story, but basically there used to be pilgrimages there by early saints. One priest tried to investigate and took it to the Vatican and they were enraged by him. He was in disgrace and put out the church, but he vowed that he had read enough to be certain. The Vatican had recently announced that the ascension of Mary was real -she'd gone up to heaven, so there were no bones, so they were just infuriated by this fellow who was showing them up.
He lost his job, his dignity, his reputation because the facts he read were not in agreement with the Vatican's opinion.

I'm going back to read more of that blog you linked