Deciphering the Pagan Stones

reply to post by Logarock

i didn't miss it I don't see it as germain to the conversation
i tried to help you but you refuse fine

you insult me because you can't really match up here
fine

I have what I wanted to learn from this thread what you think is immaterial to that understanding

Logarock

Danbones


so I suspect that there is an actual animal at the heart of the myth. the horse eels in your pic are no more real then the feathered serpant...
that salamanders are sacred in some cultures is a given, and they look like feathered serpants like the lungfish does...
but that only satisfies part of the requirements for being the origin of the myth

I mention the african lung fish because they are the same size as the ones pictured carved to scale

First off these carvings are not carved to scale in any fashion. For Pete sake you got people riding horses. Do you think maybe they are small faire horses with small faire riders then?

And there is an actual animal at the heart of the myth.....a seahorse.

right people ride them all the time
take a look back
LOL
except for the lat comers the romans every pic on page i9 where the scale is made quite often has a forked fish tail
seahorses don't have fins on thier tails they curl up to nothing unlike the tails in the art posted here

reply to post by Danbones


Hay we are derailing this thread. We need to stick to deciphering this esoteric symbols and icons on these stones. You think its a salamander that's fine with me at this point. I hope you wont mind that I am going to stick to my course on this.

reply to post by Logarock


salamander???

Alulim was the first king of Eridu, and the first king of Sumer, according to the mythological antediluvian section of the Sumerian King List. Enki, the god of Eridu, is said to have brought civilization to Sumer at this point, or just shortly before.

The Sumerian King List has the following entry for Alulim:

"After the kingship descended from heaven, the kingship was in Eridug (Eridu). In Eridug, Alulim became king; he ruled for 28,800 years."[1]
In a chart of antediluvian generations in Babylonian and Biblical traditions, Professor William Wolfgang Hallo associates Alulim with the composite half-man, half-fish counselor or culture hero (Apkallu) Uanna-Adapa (Oannes), and suggests an equivalence between Alulim and Enosh in the Sethite genealogy given in Genesis chapter 5. Hallo notes that Alulim's name means "Stag".
Shea, however, suggests that Alulim may be the same man as the biblical Adam.[3]

en.wikipedia.org...
yet another sumerian correlation



half man half fish mene's predecessor
half man half bull mene's / mino's son
names

that is a quadrant /pointer and protracter ; one quarter of a celtic cross
its used to measure the moon against the astrological symbols
this is to do the difficult calculations re longditude and time, latitude being easy peasy with a celtic cross

looks like the wheel is mounted on the cross, not made as a solid part of it al a Creighton Miller

reply to post by Logarock

Because her devotees practiced such magic wherever three paths joined, Hecate became known to the Romans as Trivia ( tri "three," and via "roads").

That's interesting because that's still custom here! If you want to get rid of a wart, you just rub it with something, wrap that up and leave the parcel where three roads meet. A Goddess is always more convincing to me, because it's more fitting to stories that have survived, like the Cailleach.

The thing that doesn't sit quite right about Waddell's translation (shrine to Bel) is that we have only his word for it. Although he seems to have been a brilliant scholar, he also seems to have an underlying agenda, to me at least (to prove himself right).
Two stones were found at Newton House, and unfortunately only one has been photographed for the database.

This is the first:


It looks typical, and easily recognisable as Pictish. The second has been recorded as having script and a mirror design, so it is fairly easy to imagine. But the only picture of it that I can find is the one Waddell drew. I'm sure you've already come across it:



That's clearly a crescent and V rod and a double disc and Z rod. So why would Strathclyde University make that mistake? They have categorised everything else under the most distinctive symbol, so why would they confuse those and claim that's a mirror?
They probably wouldn't, and so unless someone can convince me otherwise, I would have to conclude that Waddell is the one who made a mistake. Which means I can't trust his translation either.

I'm going to look into it a bit more.

ETA: The Royal Commission for Ancient and Historical Monuments (Scotland) have recorded them both in accordance with the database.

reply to post by beansidhe


I believe its in in the link I posted last page that the Romans placed idols of Hetate at both the walls facing north apparently as part of a psyop mind game on the Picts. If this is so it demonstrates the Roman understanding of what this goddess meant to the northern Picts.

reply to post by Logarock


She meant a lot, I'm convinced she is our Cailleach, the winter face of the Goddess who shaped the earth, the destroyer Goddess and the destroyer of men. In Spring, her summer 'face' is revealed, as Bride, bringer of life and fertility, and who was 'christianised' as St. Brigit. It makes a lot more sense to me, than Bel.

I can't remember where I read it, but they suggested that the Caledonii took their name from her, and so Caledonia (Scotland) is Cailleach's land.

The Roman's crappy psy-op clearly didn't work, but nice try!

reply to post by beansidhe


that z line and arrow has the same ends as a typical wire wind vane pointer
could just as well represent draco the constilation that contained the northstar 5000 years ago
and the z arrow is also attributed to the prototype of zeus...and thor..who have been linked to the kings of sumer...

none of these modern experts even know about the actuall use of the cross so how can they translate symbols pertaining to it?
just like now
since christianity stole the symbol they can't give it back with having thier whole world disintergrate

hell most people still think the britons of the day were celts and troy is in greece


so they are trapped in thier own inertia

Also waddel isn't impeached by the cross like the other so called expertas are

re
the tuning fork
here is why I doubt it
www.abovetopsecret.com...
scroll down to Astyanax's post

Picts
Content
‘Picti’ may be related to a Latin word that means ‘to paint’. The Romans first write about the Picti in AD 297. In AD 368 a Roman historian named Ammianus Marcellinus noted that:

...the Picts, divided into two tribes called Dicalydones and Verturiones… are roving at large and causing great devastation.
Many historians have said that the Picts were the ‘painted people’; that they may have decorated and tattooed their faces and bodies with dyes. The Irish called the Picts the ‘Cruithne’. The Romans used ‘Picts’ as a general term that covered many separate tribes.

Some historians now believe that the Romans may have simply misheard the name ‘Pecht’ or ‘Pect’. In Old Norse the Picts were called the Péttir, Péttar or Peti. Old English names included Pehtas and Peohtas.

The Picts are renowned for their silverwork and for their many intriguing sculptured symbol stones.

Scottish placenames starting with ‘Pit’ - for example Pitlochry, Pittenweem and Pitsligo - retain a fragment of the language of the Picts that was borrowed by later peoples. ‘Pit’ is thought to mean a ‘share’ or piece of land.

www.educationscotland.gov.uk...

there is that measuring thing again...

Here her role as initiator is revealed, as she remains the constant throughout the triple cycle of life/ death/ rebirth.

oddly similar to kali ma...the maiden the mother and the crone ...

Once the Cailleach was known as a triple goddess, her sisters/ other sides are the Cailleach Bolus and the Cailleach Corca Duibhne. In some tales the Cailleach Bheare is the wife of the sun god Lugh, but she is said to outlive many husbands, whilst remaining youthful herself, and mothering many children. Here we see an example of the earth goddess’s fecundity enduring whilst her lover rises and falls throughout the solar year. The Cailleach’s great age signifies her position as keeper of the mysteries, and as gateway to the infinite. She serves as midwife for the dying year as tenderly as she holds the seeds of the new, warm and safe in her lap beneath the earth, whilst her cauldron bubbles, hinting of the new life that will eventually come, after the long sleep that is the winter.

Neolithic burial mounds, often considered entrances to the underworld, were known as ‘Cerridwens courts’. Several stone ‘cauldrons’ containing human bones have been found in burial mounds in Ireland, and are likely to signify that this belief stretches as far back as 3000 BCE

www.danuforest.co.uk...
and she shows up when the aryans showed up from where kali ma is the same goddess and when draco was the north star

This person appears to have done their homework on Hecate

Only a few deities are well documented in literature and Hecate is one of the many who are largely absent, especially before the fourth century. Also....one has to bear in mind that there is only so much factual information out there from paintings, plates, the Hymns, etc., regarding the Goddess Hecate and the rest of the written material is merely speculation and should be taken as such. For instance, the mention that Hecate had many children. There is only one factual evidence in which Hecate may have had one child, Skylla, and it was not from Hermes but from Porkys. I have read some sources state that Hecate had many children and some with Hermes which is mere speculation with no evidence. In fact, the only association Hecate has with Hermes are their roles as chthonic Deities and/or guardians of the common people. For those reasons above, I am careful in what I believe to be information on Hecate or any other Deity for that matter and I tend to take more to heart on what scholars have to write than anything else.. Anyone can write a book but the difference is between whether it is factual or mere speculation on the author's part.

Hecate is an ancient Goddess from an earlier pre-Greek strata of myth. The Greeks found Her difficult to fit into their scheme of Gods. Some came to see Her as a daughter of the Titans, Perses and Asteria and thus cousin to Artemis. Others saw Her as an even more primal Goddess, making Her a daughter of Erebus and Nyx. What is so confusing here is if Hecate was seen as a daughter of minor parents such as Perses and Asteria, why would Zeus "give" Her so much power and ruler of Earth, Heaven and the Underworld, and He favored Her above all.

It has been speculated by one author that Hecate was not a Moon Goddess before the Roman period. He says that torches alone does not make Her a Moon Goddess. However, Hecate’s grandmother is Phoebe, the Moon. Hecate’s father, Peres, is an old Sun-God, and when there is a Sun God, there is always mention of a Moon Goddess, and so Hecate’s ancestry therefore reflects her heritage as an ancient Moon Goddess. Plus a few passages of Sophokles evokes a very clear picture of Hecate that Her torches seem to pair her specifically with Helios, the Sun God. Aristophanes speaks of Hecate’s torches showing the way at night: ("and you, oh daughter of Zeus, holding up two flaming torches...show the way...so that I may search for the thief"). (Many believe that Hecate is not the daughter of Zeus as Hecate is Pre-Greek. Also there is a picture of Hecate holding the Sun God Zeus when he was a small child.)

In the Pre-Olympian Deities, in tales concerning the beginning of things, three great Goddesses play the part of Mother of the World: the Sea-Goddess Tethys, the Goddess Night ( whom Zeus stood in sacred awe of) and Mother Earth. They constitute a trinity. All through mythology, one comes across three Goddesses. What is more, they do not merely form accidental groups of three–usually a group of three sisters–but actually are real trinities, sometimes almost forming a single Threefold Goddess. It might be because in earlier times, the calendar year was by the Moon. The lunar month was divided into three parts, and our moon had three aspects: as the waxing, the full and waning sign of a divine presence in the sky.

www.hecatescauldron.org...'s%20History%20&%20Origins.htm

there is your three and your moon and your lightening bolt

re the term Pit from above
pit cairn

The lands of Pitcairn lie in the Parish of Leslie in Fife, and are reputed to be one of the oldest of the ancient Kingdom

www.electricscotland.com...


silver mining ...tin mining ..iron ..gold..
land claims

surveyed with that cross and marked by boundry stones
dates are marked by symbols as are the astrological directions of the boundry lines themselves and certified by the authority of the RULER of the day


the nordic goths or gods used the smaller peoples to do thier mining for them
they had halfnhalf offspring while in the colonies
this leads to the battle of troy which happened in the river cam area where the evidence proves
( even shliemann said he was wrong about troy)
this half man half goth/god stuff is quite clearly deliniated in the story of troy

well here we have the myths co-inciding again

WADDELL CORRECT
the greeks and their hippocamps wrong

re
the tuning fork
here is why I doubt it
www.abovetopsecret.com...
scroll down to Astyanax's post

reply to post by Danbones


I doubt they would have had ways to measure sonic frequencies, but experimentation would have given them a sound that was desirable for ceremonies etc. I suppose I meant could you use a tuning fork to produce a sound, but I've checked that out, and it seems you can!

Personally, I subscribe to McHardy's view that the word Pict is a misheard appropriation of the Orkney term 'pecht', just meaning 'ancestors', and so all of the clans - the Venicones, the Caledonii, the Attacotti etc etc would have been included - the Romans (who may or may not all have been in Scotland at the time of writing, remember) have just used the term as an insult, a slander on the people who lived north of the Forth/Clyde and whom they could never defeat.

I like Miller's discovery of the Celtic cross, I think he's on to something! Particularly as I believe that the V rods are a compass.

So, that leaves us with the rest of the symbols on page 1 of the thread. If the beastie is the kelpie, and the stones themselves are based on punkinworks' Kudurrus, the tuning forks are just...tuning forks, and the V-rods are compasses (my interpretation!), and the Z-rods may signify battle- we still have a way to go to figure out the rest!

If we can narrow down the field to find the main influence in their artwork, the meanings should then be comparative with that culture.

Like the mirror symbol - if we're thinking of Druids, then scrying might be appropriate; if it's to represent a queen, then it might show beauty; if there is Minoan influence, it would probably be depicting a lunar connection, perhaps Diana.

There is no doubt now, in my mind, that trying to understand Pictish art involves a lot of interwoven cultures and traditions, whilst remaining elusively, well, Pictish.

This thread is extremely special, because every time I veer off on a tangent, someone else joins in to remind me to focus on the stones, and specifics of them. So your input about Miller is extremely helpful, because it challenges the notion that the crosses signify Christianity, and so it could change our thoughts about their date, and with that who they might be referring to.

For example, on the Aberlemno stone, it has previously been explained as showing Daniel in the den - I would argue that it almost certainly doesn't, instead it shows Carthimandua, being ripped apart by beasts.

I suppose that's why we're going slowly and labouring points, because they are so complicated with so many details. Ramcheck noticed the balls on the stones for example, which could easily take a thread of it's own to investigate (not suggesting you do Ramcheck, just giving an example!).

I want to think about Miller a bit more, but I need to get back to the beaks!

agreed
the symbols have been echoed
but I sail and live in the wild and have been on the water all my life
NEVER have I seen or heard of a z shaped compass needle

The Antikythera mechanism (/ˌæntɨkɨˈθɪərə/ ANT-i-ki-THEER-ə or /ˌæntɨˈkɪθərə/ ANT-i-KITH-ə-rə) is an ancient analog computer[1][2][3][4] designed to predict astronomical positions and eclipses. It was recovered in 1900–1901 from the Antikythera wreck, a shipwreck off the Greek island of Antikythera.[5] Although the computer's construction has been attributed to the Greeks and dated to the early 1st century BC, its significance and complexity were not understood until a century after its recovery, in the 1970s, when it was analyzed with modern X-ray technology. Technological artifacts approaching its complexity and workmanship did not appear again until the 14th century, when mechanical astronomical clocks began to be built in Western Europe.[6]

Professor Michael Edmunds of Cardiff University, who led a 2006 study of the mechanism, said:[7][8]

This device is just extraordinary, the only thing of its kind. The design is beautiful, the astronomy is exactly right. The way the mechanics are designed just makes your jaw drop. Whoever has done this has done it extremely carefully ... in terms of historic and scarcity value, I have to regard this mechanism as being more valuable than the Mona Lisa.

—30 November 2006

there was alot more going on back then then some of these so called experts have a clue about


all this stupid ancient people and thier dumb gods thing is a big load of ...stuff

think about it
the evidence of TROY being in Britian really shows just how much BS has been promulgated and accepted by the average rank and file and for so long too...look what it does for all that talk of Paris and Achilese being half gods ( goths) and half men

again Waddel's work matches that, the roman and the greek et al do not

reply to post by Danbones

The hippocamp was pre greek came form Phoenician influence. Hippocamp simply greek developed form. The Etruscans used it and they are said to be from Troy. So don't get hung up on the word.

beansidhe
reply to post by Logarock

 

She meant a lot, I'm convinced she is our Cailleach, the winter face of the Goddess who shaped the earth, the destroyer Goddess and the destroyer of men. In Spring, her summer 'face' is revealed, as Bride, bringer of life and fertility, and who was 'christianised' as St. Brigit. It makes a lot more sense to me, than Bel.

I can't remember where I read it, but they suggested that the Caledonii took their name from her, and so Caledonia (Scotland) is Cailleach's land.

The Roman's crappy psy-op clearly didn't work, but nice try!

Keep in mind that it could have been a title.

Danbones
reply to post by Logarock

 

i didn't miss it I don't see it as germain to the conversation
i tried to help you but you refuse fine

you insult me because you can't really match up here
fine

I have what I wanted to learn from this thread what you think is immaterial to that understanding

Dude stop this nonsense right now. You are taking advantage of the OPs good nature. I for one like to keep the flow of the tread. If you think you have it figured out then move along.