I believe that the "Born Again" (read Neo-Calvinist) Christian movement has undertaken a conspiracy against empirical thought in an effort to legitimize themselves to mainstream Americans.

People such as the editors at www.worldnetdaily.com imply that America's founding fathers were inline with the views of their own right-wing religious ideals, even though their ministries are a product of the late 20th century. They use a selective figurative interpretation of the Untied States Constitution and the founders writings to accomplish this.

This type of consipracy is nothing new though, many religious movements have used it to legitimize themselves as they emerged. One of the more famous examples was the Priory Of Scion who planted falsified doccuments in French and Italian libraries in an effort to pass themselves off as a pre-enlightenment society.

Speaking of selective interpretation, Dr. Hovins www.drdino.com a Christian Scientist, uses a strong combination of selective science, emotional appeal and an almost Nazi-esque type of retoric to push his ideas regarding evolution, public education, and fundamentalist Christianity.

In one lecture he stated very forcefully that there has never been an example of a benifical mutation (which is a blatant lie) and then went on less than five minutes later to point out that he believes in microevolution and the mutations therein. The audience didn't even blink because of the way he put forward his "evidence" which mostly consisted of his recounts of debates that have never been recorded with bumbling evolutionists.

He also has put forward the idea that the HIV virus was created at the University of Albera.

Finally, there are homophobic groups, such as The American Family Association www.afa.net , The Traditional Values Coalition and The Liberty Council, all state that heterosexual monogamous marriage has been the foundation of every civilization. This uses an issue that is inflamitory to many Americans, in order to propogate another attack against empirical thoughts. It is factually false that heterosexual monogamous marriage has been basis for civilization, Greek and Roman cultures contained much homosexual relations, most of it within government sanction. It was not until the rise of Christianity (which survived only because it was the state-religion of Rome in the late empire) that things such as non-monogamous sexual relations and homosexuality became outlawed in every region.

It is through falsehoods such as these, that the "Born Again" movement is trying to carve out its niche within America, using pre-VaticanII teachings and selective fact they have begun to permiate the American culture's more conservative elements.

Well, tell me what you think everyone! Just please, back up what you say.

Blessed Be
~Astral (The Pissed Off Pagan)

"No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says: He is always convinced that it says what he means."
-George Bernard Shaw
That says all what's needed.


And it's always same because mankind never learns from history, as long as most of people use their heads only as stand for hat it's sure that there will be always more preechers saying why they're "chosen by god" and should be let to lead others.

you must be careful in your judgement.

much of what you have posted is true, but you then went off on a rant about past civilisations that were mostly homosexual. please prove this and then explain adequetly why those nations/empires were totally destroyed soon after behaviour such as homosexuality became mainstream.

what your posting about most of American Chrsitianity, or the "American Jesus" or the "American Gospel" is correct, it isnt the real gospel, research enough online and you will find modern Christianity is in total apostacy, BUT this was predicted to happen by the very bible itself.

conclusion: bible is still the truth and man is still wrong!

sad conclusion: one of the foundations of the teaching of Jesus is that you must be born again. this happens every day on this earth, people are getting saved all the time, the problem is that the very idea of being born again is being dogged and misrepresented by false christianty, it seems the most important thing (being born again after receiving salvation) is now at stake. Because once the idea of being born again is given a bad name then Christianity will be harder to preach. Again its apostacy, the real truth is that people dont want to be born again and dont want Gods grace they want to live their lives as their own Gods. What modern apostate Christianity is doing is allowing people to "THINK" they are right with God but are in fact as far from him as South is from North.


Soon as the bible says even the pagans will think their foolish.

Originally posted by The Astral City
I believe that the "Born Again" (read Neo-Calvinist) Christian movement has undertaken a conspiracy against empirical thought in an effort to legitimize themselves to mainstream Americans.

There are a lot of 'Born Again' peeps who aren't rooted in Calvinism and Neo-Calvinism. Also, Christians don't care about legitimizing themselves in a society. Lots of historical examples of that. Why would a Christian be so attached to 70 or so years on earth when thinking about eternity?

Originally posted by The Astral City
People such as the editors at www.worldnetdaily.com imply that America's founding fathers were inline with the views of their own right-wing religious ideals, even though their ministries are a product of the late 20th century. They use a selective figurative interpretation of the Untied States Constitution and the founders writings to accomplish this.

Uhm...the founding fathers were in fact Christian and the doctrines thereof were based on Christianity.

Originally posted by The Astral City
This type of consipracy is nothing new though

It may be a shocker to some, but there's no conspiracy involved with fact.

Originally posted by The Astral City
Speaking of selective interpretation, Dr. Hovins www.drdino.com a Christian Scientist, uses a strong combination of selective science, emotional appeal and an almost Nazi-esque type of retoric to push his ideas regarding evolution, public education, and fundamentalist Christianity.

Please don't use the division of Christian Science interchangably with Christianity. Either you have issue with Christian Science or you have an issue with Born Again Christians, pick one.

Originally posted by The Astral City
In one lecture he stated very forcefully that there has never been an example of a benifical mutation (which is a blatant lie) and then went on less than five minutes later to point out that he believes in microevolution and the mutations therein. The audience didn't even blink because of the way he put forward his "evidence" which mostly consisted of his recounts of debates that have never been recorded with bumbling evolutionists.

Everyone here can get the read of a lifetime on the thread titled 'Creationist Confusion'. It's a real duel! Check it out.

Originally posted by The Astral City
He also has put forward the idea that the HIV virus was created at the University of Albera.

Again, Christian Science not Christianity.

Originally posted by The Astral City
Finally, there are homophobic groups, such as The American Family Association www.afa.net , The Traditional Values Coalition and The Liberty Council, all state that heterosexual monogamous marriage has been the foundation of every civilization. This uses an issue that is inflamitory to many Americans, in order to propogate another attack against empirical thoughts. It is factually false that heterosexual monogamous marriage has been basis for civilization, Greek and Roman cultures contained much homosexual relations, most of it within government sanction. It was not until the rise of Christianity (which survived only because it was the state-religion of Rome in the late empire) that things such as non-monogamous sexual relations and homosexuality became outlawed in every region.

There are groups on both sides. Check out one church: Presbyterian. There's the PCA which says it's not okay and the PCUSA which suggests it is okay. This is a clearly divided issue and should be represented as such.

Originally posted by The Astral City
It is through falsehoods such as these, that the "Born Again" movement is trying to carve out its niche within America, using pre-VaticanII teachings and selective fact they have begun to permiate the American culture's more conservative elements.

Born Again does not mean Conservative. You can be born again and Liberal, Independant, Green Party, Republican, etc...

Originally posted by The Astral City
Well, tell me what you think everyone! Just please, back up what you say.

You too.

Originally posted by The Astral City
Blessed Be

You too.

Originally posted by The Astral City
~Astral (The Pissed Off Pagan)

I think there are too many very distinctly different things you're pissed off about - Christian Science, conformism, the government, sexual discrimination, Republicans, etc. Maybe dividing up into bite size pieces and making less generalizations could help. Sorry if the stereotypical issues in Christianity makes you upset but this is how Christians are often represented, not how they truly are. Usually the ones you hear from are the ones who are angry, loud and not a good represenation of how everyone truly feels (in other words, a small percentage).

By the way since you have a Cliffhanger comic as an avatar, did you get a chance to look through Battle Chasers? Only made it to issue 9 or so, but started as a bang-up series I thought.


[edit on 23-11-2004 by saint4God]

Astral , like i posted earlier even the bible mentions people who put forward that they are christians but are not....and it even mentions that even the "pagans" or nonbelievers see their folly and call them fools as you have done. read the bible its in there.

apostate faith , be it ancient Israel or modern Christainity is seen in Gods eyes just as bad as non believers or whoremongers, they all end up dead and neither get eternal life. The bible even says that in the end God delivers Israel and saves Israel NOT for their own sake but for the sake of HIS NAME. For Gods OWN NAME he saves them. purely because they put it around falsely about him and soiled his name to the heathen nations. So God will "PERFORM" his salvation to them, and then afterwards deal with the heathen, of which you are one arent you??

Micah: 15 And I will execute vengeance in anger and fury upon the heathen, such as they have not heard.

The apostacy is happening right now, thats why there are so many cults out there that are now being accepted as a "church" and also why so many doctrines that were known to be pure cultish 20 or 30 yrs ago are now mainstream in many Christian Churchs and accepted.Thats because this generation will opening accept lies , because this is the generation of the apostacy, the same as in Sodom and the same as in Noahs day.

BUT..... God is also putting his eternal kingdom together now, one which will never end. Read Daniel its in there! So amongst the many "false" christians in all the churchs are the real heirs to the kingdom of God which is being put together now, its being built right now.

Originally posted by The Astral City
They use a selective figurative interpretation of the Untied States Constitution and the founders writings to accomplish this.

Well heck, some of these fundies think that becuase the declaration of independence says 'in teh year of our lord yada yada yada' that that means they too were christian conservatives.

the Priory Of Scion who planted falsified doccuments in French and Italian libraries in an effort to pass themselves off as a pre-enlightenment society.

Waitaminute, since when did this group exist outside of that one document anyway?

Speaking of selective interpretation, Dr. Hovins www.drdino.com
Kent Hovind however is /not/ a Doctor of anything. He received his 'phd' from a diploma mill called 'Patriot University'. They don't keep copies of his 'thesis' and he's only once, that I am aware of, given a copy of it to anyone. A real school is going to keep copies in the libraries. A phd thesis is important. Patriot University is not nationally accredited, which any actual school is. Furthermore, the one known copy of his degree is, well, absolutely laughable.


In one lecture he stated very forcefully that there has never been an example of a benifical mutation (which is a blatant lie)
He also doesn't understand why the sun 'burns' if there is no oxygen in outer space, and yet says he was a science teacher for a number of years. He also claims to be a tax exempt ministry, but hasn't filed for tax exempt status and still doesn't pay his taxes.

It is factually false that heterosexual monogamous marriage has been basis for civilization, Greek and Roman cultures contained much homosexual relations, most of it within government sanction.

Thisis a debateable topic, but certainly monogamy is not particularly important to civilization in general. To put it most strongly, the Spartan City State, a civilization if there ever was one, was rampantly homosexual, with strong censures against non participation. It too had male female marriages. Anyway, to sugest that marriage is relvant to the formation of civilization is absrud on its face.

The non-sensical movement in the US today is compared to a similar non-sensical, abstractist, dada-ist movement in pre-war weimar germany in "The Ominous Parrallels". An interesting read.

tstf
please prove this and then explain adequetly why those nations/empires were totally destroyed soon after behaviour such as homosexuality became mainstream.

Incorrect. The Roman Empire didn't fall because of homosexuality, there is a better case to be made that christianity resulted in its downfall. And irregardless of why the Spartan City State lost its dominance, it obviously had nothing to do with homosexuality, which was practiced throughout greece. To be certain, some city-state treated it differently than others. Anyway, there has never been a society that fell apart because of homosexuality.

saint4god
There are a lot of 'Born Again' peeps who aren't rooted in Calvinism and Neo-Calvinism

I have to agree, the born agains, in particular being associated with baptists, are not calvinists, which can really only mean predetermination. Bapstists and modern fundamentalists are 'evangelicals' more than anything else, which is not something a predeterminist would bother with. Also, technically, the "Fundamentalists', from what I have heard, were a particular group that was known for publishing short tracts about 'important' aspects of their relgion, the tracts were called the fundaments, or something like that. Obviously however teh term has been applied to a wider group nowadays.

Uhm...the founding fathers were in fact Christian and the doctrines thereof were based on Christianity.

Most were actually Deists, and irregardless they were nothing like bornagains, fundamentalists, what have you.

Please don't use the division of Christian Science interchangably with Christianity

I am not so certian hovind is a 'christian scientist' anyway.

A lot of good info on your last post. Also learned something new:

Originally posted by Nygdan
...from what I have heard, were a particular group that was known for publishing short tracts about 'important' aspects of their relgion, the tracts were called the fundaments, or something like that. Obviously however teh term has been applied to a wider group nowadays.

Thanks!