POLITICS: School Orders Boy to Cover Tee Shirt

geez, i think you're a machine, muaddib(is that from 'dune'? are you 'the messiah'?). you're in the army for crissakes. how much MORE machine-like could you possibly be? you volunteered to be a mere cog in a great machine. you are a machine. face it and weep.
i see your posts. you refuse to look at any evidence that detracts from the mainstream line. you refuse to acknowledge facts that don't support your worldview, and you rely on rhetoric to make your 'argument'.

real communism HAS never been tried. communism as the world has seen it, has just been more of the same, ...top-down pyramid control structures. you should have bitten the bias the lotus created, and listened to what the man was saying.

Originally posted by billybob
geez, i think you're a machine, muaddib(is that from 'dune'? are you 'the messiah'?). you're in the army for crissakes. how much MORE machine-like could you possibly be? you volunteered to be a mere cog in a great machine. you are a machine. face it and weep.
i see your posts. you refuse to look at any evidence that detracts from the mainstream line. you refuse to acknowledge facts that don't support your worldview, and you rely on rhetoric to make your 'argument'.

real communism HAS never been tried. communism as the world has seen it, has just been more of the same, ...top-down pyramid control structures. you should have bitten the bias the lotus created, and listened to what the man was saying.

First of i was in the Navy...was.....

Second, I have spent time at the brig for disobeying an order, so i don't "fall into your attemps of categorizing"....and no, i won't go into any specifics...

Third, I am no messiah..... keep your personal insults out of this conversation...

Fourth... "Real communism" has been tried, but it spawns what most of us know about communist countries nowadays.... so that excuse that commies keep giving is bs.... It is the same excuse some other people whose ideology have done the worse crimes in history try to accomplish...that all people accept these ideologies once more....

Communism as you read in papers is dellusional......
The communist countries around the world is exactly what happens when all the power is given to the government "to supposedly share among the citizens......"

It is the same as some cults who say you will be given enlightement if you give them all your possessions....


---edited to correct errors---

[edit on 23-11-2004 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib
If he was wearing a pro Bush shirt at school he would be either sent home or told to do the same.... Just like at the voting polls or churches etc, you can't wear "clothing or any other item with slogans of any political side...." The propaganda in that shirt is teaching hatred, and it surely would have started some kind of fight sooner or later. I never in my life wore any t-shirts with political slogans while i was going to school, not even in college and I can't remember any other kids wearing any other slogans either.... and we were not and did not become "machines"....

You're kidding, right?

My kid has been politically 'aware' since learning about the 'checks and balances' and US system of democracy in Grade 5 or 6. ...Granted, school kids don't have the same "us and them" mentality that so-called "adults" do.

...But following the US elections of 2000 and 2004 with all the news coverage and in-your-face TV ads, they are all VERY aware of parties and political "personalities." Maybe they don't really know the difference between a political and enetertainment personality, but they know Bush has power. ...and very many are afraid of him and what he's doing to this country, despite efforts within the school system to suppress awareness.

FYI - standard educational wisdom cautions parents and teachers NOT to teach children to 'avoid conflict' but rather, to help children learn how to deal with it, negotiate and move forward.



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it is not a suppression of awareness soficrow.... Is avoiding conflicts within the school system, so that kids "learn" what needs to be taught in school. School teaches about US history, but it has never, and it should never be a place for teaching the ideologies of any political parties.
This is something that has to be kept separate from what is taught in school....when ideologies are not separate, and are taught as part of our children's education, you have "an indoctrination towards a political bias in the school system."

Those people who have lived under dictatorships know that this is exactly what is being indoctrinated into children in those countries...the political bias of one party. Neither the Republican/Democrat or any other "political bias" should be taught or talked about in the school system.

---edited for errors and to clarify comments---

[edit on 23-11-2004 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib
it is not a suppression of awareness soficrow.... Is avoiding conflicts within the school system, so that kids "learn" what needs to be taught in school. School teaches about US history, but it has never, and it should never be a place for teaching the ideologies of any political parties.

...The suppression that I'm talking about is the critical awareness of the gap between what people say, and what they do. ie., republicans saying they're against taxation, yet running up an $8+ trillion dollar debt (that can only be paid with taxes)... Or questions about the voting process and the possibility of election fraud... ie., Can it happen in America or only in other countries? Is democracy something you can take for granted, or is it an ongoing responsibility?

All this stuff and more is all over TV and the Internet - kids know. And they do talk about it. The question is, will they be allowed to think and express their opinions, and to learn and grow by doing so - or not? Are they allowed to question (and learn), or are they forced to shut up and just memorize disjointed "facts"? [IMHO - the first mode educates managers, the second creates grunts.]

I disagree - Re., teaching political ideologies. I don't think it is even possible to teach history without teaching political ideology. But it is possible to teach the basics of the ideologies without taking any stand - and let kids critique, debate and discuss, based on their own learning level and abilities.

Re: avoiding conflict. Disagreement and conflict are a part of life - any educational system that tries to deny this is doomed to failure. How can kids possibly hope to function in the real world if the only way they've been taught to deal with conflict and disagreement is to ignore the situation? ...Silence doesn't work - denial simply breeds frustration and eventually explodes (ie., "going postal," or the Columbine incident)

...A good education provides the opportunity to investigate a variety of options and develop a range of problem-solving and social skills, consciously and with intellectual awareness. ...Any school that purports to "avoid conflict" is simply abdicating responsibility - leaving bullies free to make their mark on the playground and leaving everyone to flounder. Kids who are not educated to develop conflict-resolving skills are totally unprepared to work and associate with different-thinking "strangers." ...It's an awful handicap in any profession.



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Originally posted by jmilici

Originally posted by groingrinder
I saw a kid wearing a shirt that said. "JESUS IS A C*U*N*T" Should that shirt be allowed in school too??

[edit on 11-22-2004 by groingrinder]

Read my post will ya! There is profanity in that shirt so not it should not be allowed. Also thier is supposed to be a separation of church and state in anything funded by the government. Well jesus falls under church and public school falls under state. Again I am for the constitution. That means everything.

I am so sorry. I did not know that JESUS was profanity.

The fact is soficrof that people can't really talk about politics, without showing their bias towards their own political affiliations....

How many socialist professors, or liberals do you think would really tell all the facts about their ideologies? or give details of the dark times these ideologies have brought in the past?... They will simply downplay any form of government that does not adhere to their "ideal form of govenrment..."

It would be the same as telling a Christian to teach children about the way of life of Buddhism.... or telling a Buddhist to teach children about Islam....

These people most likely will put emphasis on their own "ideologies/religions...." sooner or later. It is a fact of life.



[edit on 24-11-2004 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib
The fact is soficrof that people can't really talk about politics, without showing their bias towards their own political affiliations....
These people most likely will put emphasis on their own "ideologies/religions...." sooner or later. It is a fact of life.
[edit on 24-11-2004 by Muaddib]

what DO you teach them, if your trying to completely hide the fact that politics is a constant war of ideas?

the purpose of school is not to restrict knowledge(unless you just want to brainwash students, then restricting information is good).
the purpose of school is to represent ALL views. it is up to each individual to reach his own conclusions. this is how you cultivate a growing knowledge base, as opposed to the orwellian decay you are advocating.

i'm sorry you projected that i was insulting you. i was just curious.

HERE'S an insult. you said this, " School teaches about US history, but it has never, and it should never be a place for teaching the ideologies of any political parties."

There is a difference between teaching and indoctrination... Making schools a political battleground will certainly make education become indoctrination. When you start to brainwash people, you start with the young.... Children can learn a lot of things without being indoctrinated into a political system.

Originally posted by Muaddib
There is a difference between teaching and indoctrination... Making schools a political battleground will certainly make education become indoctrination. When you start to brainwash people, you start with the young.... Children can learn a lot of things without being indoctrinated into a political system.

thank you. you've made my point. i wish you understood what you are saying.

only this part doesn't make sense...."Making schools a political battleground will certainly make education become indoctrination." there is no conflict in indoctrination. indocrination is achieved by constant repetition. when you have a 'dialogue', you are able to put a thesis against an antithesis, and can achieve a synthesis, which is a compromise agreeable to both the thesis and antithesis. this process allows greater understanding of the whole.
nobody is advocating that schools become a 'battleground'. we are advocating that ideas should be free to roam the hallowed halls of acedemia.
the only political system kids will be indoctrinated into is DEMOCRACY. i wouldn't be surprised if you think that's a bad thing.

edited, because i can't discuss education seriously with the phrase 'this part is doesn't make sense', or the word 'becomae'.



[edit on 24-11-2004 by billybob]

maudib

It would be the same as telling a Christian to teach children about the way of life of Buddhism

Yes, it would be - and many Christians do this. Some teach their children, others wait until the kids reach college and study theology or comparative religions. FYI - any person who graduates from a respected college to become a Christian preacher or leader does not do so without having learned about all the other religions in the world.

These people most likely will put emphasis on their own "ideologies/religions...." sooner or later. It is a fact of life.

I agree but unlike you, it's the influence of corporatism in the schools that I resent. :: ....Kidding aside, most teachers do honestly try to be balanced. Even so, their personal bias probably does show through - so we can only trust that democracy will work and a balance will be achieved - over time if not in a particular class. ...Kids are told how the government works and also what the parties are, with a bit of history. This is not bad. It is only when kids are given restricted, one-sided information and prevented from discussing things openly that you have censorship - which is the key to tyranny and totalitarianism.

Making schools a political battleground will certainly make education become indoctrination.

Talking about different things does not make a battleground. ...It is only when people have NOT learned to deal with difference that they are threatened and react with hostility. I think most kids naturally try to be "fair" - they have a strong sense of justice and work hard to protect that for everyone. It is only later that this changes.

Indoctrination is when people are NOT allowed choices, or to talk openly about different things or to learn about them, or to argue their own point of view. ...What you are saying is indoctrination is actually the opposite - and what you are presenting as the way to avoid indoctrination is an exact description of the process of indoctrination.

When you start to brainwash people, you start with the young....

This is true - and you brainwash children (and adults) by censoring the information that's available to them, and preventing them from learning about different ways of looking at, thinking about and responding to different things.

The only way to avoid brainwashing - in the schools and elsewhere - is to provide kids with a taste of ALL the information, teach them to research, analyze, think critically and act responsibly, and then let them free to do it.


.edit - said with when I meant without. oops.

[edit on 26-11-2004 by soficrow]

The kid was 13 years old, and IMO, he was just practicing hero worship for his older brother, who had loaned him the shirt.

"I think they violated my rights because I wore the shirt to express my opinion, that we shouldn't have gone to war," Truszkowski said.

However, the shirt doesn't specifically protest the war. It slanders the president: 'The Real Terrorist Is In The White House'
This violates the school dress code:

Student apparel that is distracting, hinders the educational process or "advertises, glorifies or symbolizes any illegal substances, contains derogatory phrases, profanity or glorifies violence or criminal behavior" is not permitted to be worn, according to the Appoquinimink School District dress code.

Several students protested the shirt:

While the dress code does not specifically address clothing with a political message, the shirt is clearly inappropriate, said Lillian Miles, Appoquinimink district spokeswoman. She said several students have complained about the shirt.

"At this point, the shirt has now become a distraction," she said.

So are we supposed to ignore these students' right to pursue an education free of distraction?

Maybe the students should not be allowed to wear anything that a teacher would not be allowed to wear. If a teacher wore this shirt, reprisals would be swift.

I know that many of us like to think that our teens and tweens are so very precocious and aware and able to assimilate and process complex information at a very early age because, well, they are special. But that is very rarely the case. Most likely and most often, they are merely reflecting the biases of their parents. To say that children should be given all the information and then be left to form independent, mature opinions is naive and almost reckless. There is such a thing as age appropriateness. Sex and the possibility of pregnancy is an example of this.

I am reminded of a thread several months ago around a student who had drawn a picture of Bush's head on a pike, and all the discussion around that issue. There were parents who thought that the picture showed the boy's precociousness and astute political awareness. There were those who thought the boy was troubled. This thread has certain similarities to that thread.

Yes, school is for learning many things. But it is for the adults to place limits on what is appropriate in school. When the kids reach the age of majority, then they can make their own decisions. Until then, they must follow our rules.

The kid's mother should have investigated whether this type of activity could be accomodated in another way, if she felt so strongly about it. Maybe an extra-curricular discussion club would work.

Originally posted by jsobecky

So are we supposed to ignore these students' right to pursue an education free of distraction?

IMHO - the current focus on expensive designer clothes (and status) is MUCH more of a distraction.

Maybe an extra-curricular discussion club would work.

Excellent suggestion, IMHO.


.

If the government is afraid of a T-shirt, why shouldn't we be afraid of the government?

Originally posted by billybob

thank you. you've made my point. i wish you understood what you are saying.

only this part doesn't make sense...."Making schools a political battleground will certainly make education become indoctrination." there is no conflict in indoctrination. indocrination is achieved by constant repetition. when you have a 'dialogue', you are able to put a thesis against an antithesis, and can achieve a synthesis, which is a compromise agreeable to both the thesis and antithesis. this process allows greater understanding of the whole.
nobody is advocating that schools become a 'battleground'. we are advocating that ideas should be free to roam the hallowed halls of acedemia.
the only political system kids will be indoctrinated into is DEMOCRACY. i wouldn't be surprised if you think that's a bad thing.

edited, because i can't discuss education seriously with the phrase 'this part is doesn't make sense', or the word 'becomae'.

I made your point?..... i probably understood better than you thank you....

First, i did not say that democracy shouldn't be "taught" in school... i think it was clear, as i have said before, that the ideologies of the different political parties should not be part of education, and since teachers are going to have a bias "towards their own political parties then it will become indoctrination....." That's what I meant.... if you were following my discussion you will see i said this...

I know what indoctrination means...no need for you to explain it to me... i went through 8 years of indoctrination in a communist country as a child.....

As for what you said in your last sentence....i don't know what the heck you are talking about... Let me quote it again...

edited, because i can't discuss education seriously with the phrase 'this part is doesn't make sense', or the word 'becomae'.

You can't discuss education seriously with a phrase "you" wrote?...... then my advice is for "you" not to write such phrase.....

The word "becomae"...... did i say that anywhere?.....

I am taking that you are laughing at youself, since you were the only one who said any of the above..... Oh well, they say it's good to laugh about yourself once in a while....

[edit on 26-11-2004 by Muaddib]

that's right! i WAS laughing at myself. i reread my post and found those typos, so i fixed them.
there is nothing funnier to me than finding fault with myself. i love making fun of me.

Originally posted by soficrow
Yes, it would be - and many Christians do this. Some teach their children, others wait until the kids reach college and study theology or comparative religions. FYI - any person who graduates from a respected college to become a Christian preacher or leader does not do so without having learned about all the other religions in the world.

Soficrow, just like they teach in almost any other religion, there is only one true religion. Most people say their religion is the only and true one. That first.

Second, when a person goes to college to become a preacher, it is already in their minds what they want to be, they were taught since children about their religion, so even if they learn about other religions it is certain they will not change their minds, they were already taught which religion is the true one.

IMO, people can choose whatever religion they want to follow, but you can't deny that people are indoctrinated into religions since they are children. Some people fight this indoctrinations, others like and agree with what they are taught, still it is indoctrination.

Originally posted by soficrow
I agree but unlike you, it's the influence of corporatism in the schools that I resent. :

: ....Kidding aside, most teachers do honestly try to be balanced. Even so, their personal bias probably does show through - so we can only trust that democracy will work and a balance will be achieved - over time if not in a particular class. ...Kids are told how the government works and also what the parties are, with a bit of history. This is not bad. It is only when kids are given restricted, one-sided information and prevented from discussing things openly that you have censorship - which is the key to tyranny and totalitarianism.

Perhaps i have forgotten some of what I learned in high school, but I don't remember that they taugh us about the ideologies of the political parties....we were just taught about the form of government we have and the early history of our government, without any bias.

Originally posted by soficrow
Talking about different things does not make a battleground. ...It is only when people have NOT learned to deal with difference that they are threatened and react with hostility. I think most kids naturally try to be "fair" - they have a strong sense of justice and work hard to protect that for everyone. It is only later that this changes.

Soficrow, first of all...nowadays people barely talk....if you put together people from two different political parties, you will see them yelling and screaming at each other.... and whether or not you want to agree with it, the side that always yells the most and looks for some form of violence when things don't go their way, are those that do not agree with the political party that is presently in the white house. I can't remember the animosity that is happening now or in 2000 happening when Clinton won...

For what i have seen, most Republicans do not over-react if the opposition wins...and yes i am a Republican and you are obviously going to say I have a bias towards this party and thus my response...but then if i am wrong, show me when Republicans made so much of a big deal when Clinton won...twice....as what is happening now, and what happened in 2000...

Originally posted by soficrow
Indoctrination is when people are NOT allowed choices, or to talk openly about different things or to learn about them, or to argue their own point of view. ...What you are saying is indoctrination is actually the opposite - and what you are presenting as the way to avoid indoctrination is an exact description of the process of indoctrination.

Soficrow...you have to present better evidence to validate your argument that "what i am presenting is an exact description of the process of indoctrination".......

The above is "your point of view" which i assure you is totally wrong...

Now let me try to explain, again, "my point of view...."

First, you want "children" to be taught about the ideologies of political parties.... This will create at least two main separate groups between kids...now do tell me...mostly....how friendly are the people from the two main political parties, Republican/Democrats towards each other?.... how friendly are the people from the other political parties towards the two main political parties?......

Knowing the dissent between "adults" that have different political parties, and knowing that in many cases this dissent leads to heated arguments and in many instances violence.... do tell me how this will not make schools "a battleground for political affiliations"......? and do tell me how violence is going to be avoided when "children" are involved in heated political arguments.....

How is violence these days in schools?....is it more or less the same as it was a decade or two ago?.... Now add to the present violence in schools....the violence that will surely spring from discussing political affiliations in schools....

Now...appart from the above...as i have stated before, teachers normally already have a political bias, and this bias will show in their teaching. "Children" will mostly not see this bias, but will certaily agree with their teacher's reasoning, unless their parents teach them otherwise. This bias that teachers have, will be an indoctrination for children towards one political party.

Originally posted by soficrow
This is true - and you brainwash children (and adults) by censoring the information that's available to them, and preventing them from learning about different ways of looking at, thinking about and responding to different things.

The only way to avoid brainwashing - in the schools and elsewhere - is to provide kids with a taste of ALL the information, teach them to research, analyze, think critically and act responsibly, and then let them free to do it.

No, you indoctrinate and brainwash children by puting a bias on their minds since childhood. Puting a bias towards a form of government, puting a bias towards a political party, etc, etc. Children are "children" and they should grow up without any bias at all, when they are adults they will be able to make decisions "on their own".

[edit on 26-11-2004 by Muaddib]