Remember....the Victors write the history books...

redhorse

Hoosierdaddy71
The nazis tried to exterminate a race. That not evil enough for you? No nations perfect but that one was particularly nasty.

This is precisely what those individual soldiers were thinking in order to justify their actions. It is sick thinking. This is the very rot at the core of the human condition that allowed the Nazis to perpetuate their evil. It all comes down to a demonization of The Other.

Using the atrocities committed by members of a nation/people/race/whatever as an excuse to visit those same atrocities upon them in turn is wrong. Turning that brutality upon those members that are innocent, and had nothing to do with the original cruelty is the worst kind of hypocrisy.

We aspire to higher purpose, but war never fails to illustrate that we are aggressive animals. In the right circumstances, we use the flimsiest of excuses to exercise that primal aggression, and then excuse away those actions with the same circular, and school yard logic.

You stand on the edge of this nasty tendency even in times of peace, and there are so many just like you. I wouldn't want to be any where near you or anyone like you in a war. Not as your enemy certainly, but even more not as a non-combatant that might cross your path, or even standing next to you with the same uniform with the same goal.

People that think as you do are exactly why the Nazis came to power at all.

I'm glad to see there are other thinkers out there, and that I am not alone.

We love to anthropomorphize ourselves OUT of our inherent status of being animals. We are aggressive. We are cruel. Whereas we have the capacity for great care and gentleness, so do we have the same degree of capacity for heinous atrocities.

And it's our wonderful brain which allows us to concoct the very idea that we are somehow "right" in what we are doing.

Amdirbes
reply to post by zeroBelief

 

I have to agree with the whole "think" argument. Citing Sources and Spilling facts and Statistics is not your opinion. You are doing the exact opposite of what this thread asked to have done. They want to know what YOU think; Opinions, not facts.

IMO all wars are biased towards the winner, I mean, isn't that obvious? If somebody wins control, they get to choose what people say about them by threatening anyone who says otherwise.

Same thing happens between teenagers worldwide, 2 kids fight, winner is telling the truth (as far as the other kids are concerned)
If you were to try to take away from their victory they would become aggressive and confront you. Duh!?!?

There is always good and bad on both sides of any war. Always, Even if you do not share the point of view of the side you disagree with, some of their ideals may have been not so bad. If more people were open minded and accepting, I think we would be less violent as a species.

Take Civil War in America for example.
This is how my grandfather explained it to me and is MY OPINION
Obviously the whole south could not have been evil or they would not have had African American soldiers that not only fought, but fought proudly for the south. Not all slave owners beat their slaves and starved and raped them. Some treated them as family, gave them wages, and allowed them to live in their own homes on the property.
The North was most certainly not all innocent and heroic either. They claim the war was about slavery because they won, but it started long before that was an issue. The north was not fertile land and when the south pulled out of the union they were left with machines and factories but no product to use them on. The slavery argument was basically them deciding, well if they are gonna screw us we should get them first. What can we say that will get us the most soldiers? I Know! Lets use the worst of them and say all of them are like that! (All wars do just that BTW)

Once a group of people in power decides they want war, they get it, as long as the people allow. It is nothing but arrogance in most cases and IDC if you disagree with me. THAT'S KINDA THE POINT. It is opinions.

The good and bad on both sides is portrayed by the winner usually emphasizing the negative on the losing side and the positive on the winning.
Who wouldn't talk trash about someone they hated enough to slaughter?
Not going to lie, I would.

ADDED: To win, you must be a killer. I know of no killers with sparkly white pure motives. Even churches admit to being wrong in those situations.

edit on AM012751Mon, 27 Jan 2014 05:51:19 -0600bAmerica/Chicago19 by Amdirbes because: (no reason given)

Very interesting and coherent input. Thank you

Hoosierdaddy71

zeroBelief

Hoosierdaddy71
The nazis tried to exterminate a race. That not evil enough for you? No nations perfect but that one was particularly nasty.

It would seem that my request of you to think was a bit much?

All you've done is parrot what the text books have been written for us to understand of the situation.

All I tried to point out is that the pearly white version we've been given is whitewash.

This is what you said..

I think that after reading this, if you still believe how absolutely "evil" the Nazi Regime was.... Well, I wonder how closed minded you might be.

And this little gem..


I have a job, and a family. And that job is not to be an independent researcher of such things.

If you need a few dozen more of anything, I'd suggest you use Google.


You say directly that the nazis were not that "evil". I say they were and gave you links to prove my point. I also agreed that they were not the only evil in the world. Yet they were still nasty.
The only thing you have to back up your theory is something you "read" that someone else wrote and published in 1990.
Then when xuenchen asked you for more proof to back your theory you tell him to look it up yourself! We get one paper written by a disgruntled soldier as evidence and your done looking. All that you have proven is that you are to lazy to even research the facts before you post a thread. Maybe you should (think) about that awhile.

Feel free to go shack up with xuenchen...You two are obviously compatible in more than one way.

Evil is not a "thing". Evil does not "exist". It is based off of perceptions. We committed rather similar atrocities. We openly and wantonly taught the "EVIL" of the Nazis...yet...do we address what we did?

How about what we did to the American Indians?

How about any other war we've been in?

Are we really "Good" where they are "EVIL" ?



You are clinging to an ideal that you are parroting from things you've been taught and have read over and over. You seem to refuse to think things through. You seem to refuse to constantly take in new insights and ideas.

All of this leads me to the idea that you seem to feel you are "correct".


That is a poisonous place to be at, my friend.


So, give xuenchen a hug and a kiss for me.....


Ciao....

nwtrucker
reply to post by buster2010

 

Now THAT is B.S. the facts are the U.S. made 12-15 attempts to communicate the intentions to us the bomb to the Japanese via the Soviet Union. It was ignored.

No city in Japan TO THIS DAY would defy the Emperor. never mind in '45. Name the "general/s" that were against using the bomb...that saved the lives of the invasion force because Japan would not surrender.

Here is a little light reading for you. The bombs was as unnecessary as an invasion because we could have sit back and bomb them from the sea.

Was Hiroshima Necessary?

Watch you tube video ''6 million my A$$ '' ,New York Times excerpts, on the 6 Million number ,interesting !

Hoosierdaddy71
reply to post by FyreByrd

 

When you say what the us did to japan, do you mean the nukes? Because those nukes saved a million plus lives.

Really it did? whom told you that FOX News? War Fascists?

How does dropping two nuclear bombs on two civilian is actually saving million of lives again? thats quite a closed minded you got there.

reply to post by Hoosierdaddy71


No they didn't. Japan was already at its knees about to collapse. It was a show of power from the U.S., "Look what we can do!". The war wouldn't have lasted much longer. Germany had already fallen, Japan had no powerful allies and their resources were pretty much all used. They were relying heavily on suicide bombers as they had more men then bombs for planes at that point.

To the OP, of course history is written by the victors. It always has been. Want a good idea of how that rewriting of history looks like? Take a look at the smear campaigns by our politicians today. Now lets pretend that the one politician was dead and unable to defend himself. What do you think the people would think? Naturally, they'd believe the majority of the "facts" presented by the opposite politician slinging the mud.

I can only imagine what the world would say about the United States if it should ever fall. I wonder if Washington will have hundreds of monuments built for all the dead America is responsible for.

Agent_USA_Supporter
How does dropping two nuclear bombs on two civilian is actually saving million of lives again?

Very easily, they dropped them on 2 military target (do not believe the history revisionists who claim they were just civilians) and were getting ready to drop more, they would have had another one to drop about the 17/8/45

As Japan surrendered after the 2 bombs there was no need for Operation Downfall, and estimates of the allied casualities for that was up to 1 million+
Allen, Thomas B.; Polmar, Norman (1995). Code-Name Downfall. New York: Simon & Schuster. ISBN 978-0-684-80406-4.

Remember, japan could ave surrendered anytime they wanted to before the bombs were dropped.

SirMike
reply to post by zeroBelief

 

I have read some of these stories and what all the narrators leave out is the there was this little thing call the Second World War occurring the background. Agriculture was disrupted across the entire continent and refugees were pouring out of the East away from the Soviet advance. Were the food shortages across continental Europe, yes. Were there housing shortages, yes. Did these wind up killing many civilians and POW's, yes. Was this part of some master plan by Ike and Brits to exterminate the Germans, no.

Whole trains laden with food sent from Switzerland were sent back, unopened, Eisenhower's direct order to his own troops not to feed 'surrendered enemy personnel' (not the same as POW's) is documented ad nausium on Google, there has been television programs about it.
Even when in war college he was known as 'that terrible jew' (from a TV program).

Did Eisenhower know of these camps?

AthlonSavage
Did Eisenhower know of these camps?

It is all based on a anti American book
en.wikipedia.org...

The book has been extensively criticized by mainstream historians, with one stating that it "makes charges that are demonstrably absurd". Stephen Ambrose and seven other historians examined the book soon after its publication, and came to the conclusion that it was inaccurate and the product of conspiracy theory.

reply to post by Agent_USA_Supporter


Honestly, I used to think the same thing, but after seeing what the fire bombs could have accomplished instead, the sheer power of that bomb and Japan's subsequent surrender, saved millions of people. I'm not saying the they were justified in any way, I'm saying one was a lesser evil than the other.

~Tenth

reply to post by TheDualityExperience


That "evil" and "live" thing, title to s SciFi book about fifty years ago. Had a copy for years.

reply to post by dodol


That's my beef with the Holocaust too.

It happened, but it was/still is the Jews playing that card to get what they want. I have never heard of a homosexual, gypsy, disabled person, Catholic, political prisoner, Freemason, mentally ill or other persecuted peoples want to champion their rights by saying that they survived the Holocaust.

I belong to certain persecuted groups listed (mentally ill, mentally disabled, Gypsy, homosexual), but for brevity's sake I choose mentally ill.

Now let's say that I want to get hired for a job, but they pass me over for someone more mentally stable, even though I am evened out by some medication and can perform the duties to the best of my physical ability (equal to Mentally stable guy). If I start ranting, or head off to a lawyer, saying that I was discriminated against because I'm mentally ill and x number of mentally ill were killed during the Holocaust, I would be laughed out of the room...or dragged depending on the security.

But if I was Jewish, lawyers would be scrambling all over themselves to make sure that my precious rights weren't violated.

I could say the LGBT community could pull the H-card if they want to, but they choose not too because apparently it is only a privilige for the Jewish community (as well as Poles and Slavs if you want to include them)

I always wondered if the navy blockade stopped food from reaching germany, thus starving the people in extermination camps.

www.youtube.com...


It seems as though we were lied to about the actual number of Jews exterminated in the camps. This should come as no surprise to anyone that has done there research on various topics and lies. If you repeat a number long enough it tends to stick.

It's pathetic how many people forget about the Japanese camps. It's even more pathetic how many people will completely write off camp fema without doing a single shred of unbiased research.

hellobruce

AthlonSavage
Did Eisenhower know of these camps?

It is all based on a anti American book
en.wikipedia.org...

The book has been extensively criticized by mainstream historians, with one stating that it "makes charges that are demonstrably absurd". Stephen Ambrose and seven other historians examined the book soon after its publication, and came to the conclusion that it was inaccurate and the product of conspiracy theory.

Ever heard of Ezra Pound?

rickymouse
reply to post by zeroBelief

 

My dad was a POW in WW11. He was injured before being caught. He was sent to a farm to work because of his living on a farm when he grew up. The farmer kept him in the barn hidden from the guards till he recovered from his wounds and then he went back to the camp after that. The guards either did not know he was missing, which I doubt, or they knew he needed care. He was fed well and he contacted the farmer that helped him in the late sixties. They remembered him.

The people in Germany were not bad people, they may have had a very power hungry leader, but most of the people were decent folk, just like many of the people in this country were. You cannot judge all the people in a country by their leadership. Most just do what they have to do to survive. Three quarters of the people are that way in America today, just wanting to enjoy their lives. The other quarter make that extremely hard to do.

This is what The Powers That Were are hoping for the american people. Our leaders are evil, and perpetrating evil upon the world. We need to stop them , or we will be just like the German people, we will be considered culpable for the leaders crimes.

tompumped
www.youtube.com...


It seems as though we were lied to about the actual number of Jews exterminated in the camps. This should come as no surprise to anyone that has done there research on various topics and lies. If you repeat a number long enough it tends to stick.

It's pathetic how many people forget about the Japanese camps. It's even more pathetic how many people will completely write off camp fema without doing a single shred of unbiased research.

edit on 30-1-2014 by tompumped because: (no reason given)

Yes, and since "Jewish" is a religion, lets compare how many Christians were killed in WW2, vs the supposed Jewish people killed.

I believe it was something like 20 million christians killed??