Can someone be pro-life and still eat meat?

reply to post by LittleByLittle


It's all about compassion my friend - soul or no soul

How is it that the humans have one and the critters don't?

How is it OK to mistreat things without a soul if having a soul is suppose to mean you're better?

What is a soul for - anyhow?

:-)

Aleister
Nope, not in my opinion. If someone claims the label "Pro-life" and they still eat meat, there is a massive disconnect there imnho.

Being "pro-life" is a personal choice. Some believe it is cast down from on-high, but IMHO, it is a personal choice.

Being a carnivore, is what we are. We have canine teeth meant for ripping meat off of the bone. We also have molars and other back teeth which are designed to masticate the food before swallowing.

We have EVOLVED (or, some might say, were DESIGNED) to become what we are.

So, again, IMHO, the equation of someone being "pro-life" not being a person that can also eat meat...well, it's an opinion. Not a truth.

I can believe in God, UFO's, Twerking, DOG is my co-pilot, etc.....and yet, I can still eat meat.

Tasty...tasty...meat....MMMMMM......

reply to post by Aleister


Hi OP, i too think this is apples and oranges and a question of semantics, im always glad to see a poster here who can see both sides of an issue and not hold a hard stance and expect everyone else too live up to that standard as well.

That being said, i eat meat, hunt, am an atheist, and pro-choice. I eat meat and hunt because it is what my biology is made to do. I love veggies too, but i eat real meat without guilt because i understand that life feeds on life and a diverse diet is beneficial to me. I hunt because i do not want my species to lose this skill and i believe that it gives me a greater appreciation for the value of all life.

I am an atheist so i dont care that the bible claims that god gives us dominion over the earth and all the plants and animals on it, the same way a lion does not care who gives it dominion over the gazelles and antelopes it eats. I dont eat lions because i would like for them to be around for a long time. Cattle, chickens, pigs, deer, rabbits, and ducks arent really at any risk of disapearing anytime soon.

I am pro-choice because i do not think anyone should be able to force a decision about another persons body or life. I believe a person (women) should have the choice whether they are ready for such a responsibility as taking care of a child, or if they even want to bring a child to term and ultimately go tthrough the process of child birth. I do believe that there should be term limits for abortion,( probably within the first few months) but i am happy to leave that decision up to the doctors and or the persons involved. Now all that being said i would never condone a child of mine to be aborted, but ultimately i would understand that it is not really my body or my choice.

Now.... All THAT being said, i do not want these discussions to go away either. I understand that there are many sides to these (and most other) issues. My own side being very open minded, may not be the most moral or beneficial to the world, but it is my point of view. Only with open minded discussion can we all progress and come to understand the underlying points that will shape the laws and social norms that we will come to live by. I see that the many points of view from all societies are necessary, and they are all important.

reply to post by Aleister


So mister or misses Vegan, by your own logic how do you justify eating living plants, sometimes while they are still alive. How do those sprouts taste? Clover, broccoli or brussel seeds that have just been germinated for your consumption. How is that different than eating live stock grown for consumption. A life is a life, and whether it is a living plant or animal, they lived, grown for consumption and became food, to nourish another life. Killing unborn children because their life is an inconveniences to you is why your friend and others like her have devoted their lives to protesting the murder of innocent children.
I'm surprised by your arrogance, vegans eat all sorts of live foods, and now you want to sit there on your high horse sipping Kombucha and proclaim your superiority.

Have fun with your Pro-Choice diet, while you nourish the hate and contempt for those around you.

Woodcarver
reply to post by Aleister

 

I am pro-choice because i do not think anyone should be able to force a decision about another persons body or life. I believe a person (women) should have the choice whether they are ready for such a responsibility as taking care of a child, or if they even want to bring a child to term and ultimately go tthrough the process of child birth. I do believe that there should be term limits for abortion,( probably within the first few months) but i am happy to leave that decision up to the doctors and or the persons involved. Now all that being said i would never condone a child of mine to be aborted, but ultimately i would understand that it is not really my body or my choice.

I like how you contradict yourself, you don't want to have to "force a decision" but want to impose "term limits"? Have your cake and eat it to huh? I will always Choose Life.

Also maybe it's only semantics again, you're over looking the decision to conceive, men and women alike have that decision. If they are not "ready for such a responsibility as taking care of a child" then they should not conceive one.

Aleister
Nope, not in my opinion. If someone claims the label "Pro-life" and they still eat meat, there is a massive disconnect there imnho.

Well if you don't eat something living, what will you eat? Granite? Think of the thousands of grasses murdered just to make a single slice of bread! Even bacteria is living and every glass of water you drink contains bacteria .... you murderer you

LOL the OP is like when hipsters try to out hipster each other.

ROFLMAO.

Well, not that anyone would put any weight on my opinion...
For me I would definitely say that I am "Pro Life". Although I do believe in God, my stance has nothing at all to do with religion. I do not believe in any religion. I think that churches have corrupted faith as a means to control and get rich. I am also a carnivore. I do not support abortion, the death penalty, wars or anything else that takes a human life. I wish that the beef/chicken/fish/etc industries were more humane and I would fully support some kind of prosecution for those who are cruel to animals. I know it could be argued that killing an animal for their meat is cruel, but I honestly have no answer for that. I can only describe what my own felings/beliefs are.

Having said that, I will not stand in the way of another person's beliefs/practices/freedom of expression/etc. Since I do believe in an afterlife (one where "hell" doesn't exist), I see aborted human life as somewhat "lucky" souls who get to skip the mortal human part of their existance. They don't have to experience pain, loss, suffering, idiotic dogma... they just skip to the...whatever's next.

So for me, I would not want someone violating my right to believe and practice what I believe (within the confines of the law of course) and as such - I will not get in the way of anothers rights either. My own daughter and son in law couldn't be more different than me in their beliefs. I think they are wrong and they think I am wrong - but we still love each other and respect each other's choices. There may be some good natured ribbing each other, but all in love and support of each other. As it should be worldwide.

reply to post by Aleister


Following your logic, one can't be pro-life and walk down the street... you know, just in case they step on a small bug and kill it. Someone can't be pro-life and brush their teeth... because of all the bacteria that is killed. Pro-life is an overwhelmingly "religious" (I hate that word) position rooted in Biblical teaching. Certainly an atheist or agnostic could be pro-life, but the foundation of the pro-life movement is Biblical. Having said that, God makes it clear in Genesis that Man has dominion over animals, and He also makes it clear that man can eat meat.

reply to post by OptimusSubprime

God makes it clear in Genesis that Man has dominion over animals

Depends on what version you read.

Obviously we have the ability to "control" (breed, kill, nurture) animals - but that does NOT make us "better". Animals are sentient creatures, here with a job to do, just as we are. Perhaps animals are not 'consciously proactive' (but I think they are) - however, they are part of what makes up the world. It does NOT mean we have immunity to the consequences of 'destroying' them, exploiting them, mistreating them, and throwing them away as 'mere bodies'.

Do you not have a relationship with an animal?? (Aside from a human being?) Animals have personalities - UNIQUE personalities. They have thoughts, emotions, reactions, and relevance to us, inasmuch as WE are an animal specie.

I believe the message is that we are STEWARDS, not 'dominators'. That's just rubbish. Sorry, friend.

Genesis is metaphorical. So - you're a literalist then...right?


le sigh

WeRpeons
reply to post by Aleister

 

Some people may label your thoughts on "pro-life" as being ridiculous, but in my opinion, you're absolutely right! There are a lot of pro-lifers who are also pro-war and pro-death penalty. Pro-Life means exactly that - you're against killing life no matter if it's human or animal. The word "Pro=Life" has evolved into a narrow meaning for most anti-abortionists as only for the rights of an unborn human fetus. They seem to ignore the basic word and what it really signifies. Don't animals who also show emotion and feel pain have a right to life? Do "so called enemies", soldiers, and people who commit crimes also have a right to life?

Thank you, that's what I was trying to say but less elegantly than you. If someone calls themselves "Pro-life" then they should include all life. The bard, Robert Anton Wilson, said one person in a thousand knows that insects are people. So when we are surrounded by all these lifeforms, the very least we can do is not eat them or, if we do, not claim the label "Pro-life". That's a name that has to be earned.

Other on the thread talk about wanting to go vege but love the taste of meat. I was there with you! It took me five years of attending classes and talking with two people who were ardent vegans to finally give up my precious meat, and I thought I'd never enjoy food again. Ha! From then on it turned out that every meal is a feast. Apparently our taste buds "heal" after giving up meat, and our bodies take on their natural functioning again.

Almost all meat is bland, very bland. The taste that you experience is from the seasonings mixed in with the meat at the manufacturers. I never met a hamburger I didn't like (until someone made me one with eggs, horrible), so I know where meateaters are coming from. You think you won't like food again. It's just the opposite.

I try to practice what I am preachy about, in terms of saving insects in the house, not stepping on ants, etc. I don't eat carrots because they are the whole plant and not just a seed, a root seed, or a stalk (I do love steamed broccoli, which I hope isn't the whole plant). Thanks for all the good posts on this thread, and I agree with most of the points of view, even the ones calling me names (if I can't take the heat don't cook lentils and rice in the kitchen). Yet the OP asks the simple question of pro-lifers calling themselves pro-life and still eating animals, and for me that's a stretch to reconcile.

reply to post by Aleister


I agree with you Aleister. The answer is a resounding NO. Also I run into similar situations like you when people say they love animals, yet still eat them. It is morally wrong to murder and eat animals, and it can be argued it is just as morally wrong to eat plants. However what people don't get its the lesser of the two evils for a human to live off of a plant based diet because eating animals is akin to cannibalism.

Secondly,most people here are failing to realize humans would be more accurately classified as omnivores rather than carnivores, and even that is a stretch. I don't know why I see a few people here calling humans carnivores. Anyways A plant based diet (non GMO,pesticides,etc) is more effective and efficient for human survival. It is healthier to live off a plant based diet vs a meat

eating/mixed/western etc diet. Eating meat is like getting second or third hand nutrients. Also I don't want to hear the BS evolution argument, it can't be proven and you can get the same amount or more plus better quality protein/nutrients from plant based vs meat. Also to the people who think you can just give thanks, it doesn't matter if you give thanks for it or not. If someone murdered and ate your loved one but gave thanks, would it be ok?

I find it strange how people think just because other animals eat meat or would eat you its ok, its not. So basically by their logic just because others commit crimes, rape, kill, etc it would be ok and free game for them to do it too. The problem is this world is corrupt and most people have been indoctrinated/brainwashed from birth to think eating meat is normal, so its hard for them to escape the programming.

Here is some food for thought for all the meat eaters. If your honest with your self you only like meat when its cooked and or seasoned, and you know you wouldn't eat it raw as in just take a bite out of a chicken, cow, etc but you could eat a orange or apple (or any other fruit or vegetable of your choice) and it would taste good, and be good for you.

The fact is animal meat and dairy is bad for humans it makes you acidic, cancerous, and gives/causes a plethora of diseases. A plant based diet has been proven to heal and properly nourish the body. Also if anyones interested I think the Documentary "Forks Over Knives" covers the topic perfectly regarding the science side of plant based vs meat. For me its a moral choice first and then the health benefits are a added bonus. So in closing its hypocritical or foolish for one to say they are "Pro Life" and then not mind taking life.


Ps I have not been on/logged in ATS in months, but I felt like I had to give my two cents on this one. "Every time i try to get out they pull me back in" lol Ok back to lurking, Peace

OptimusSubprime
reply to post by Aleister

 

Following your logic, one can't be pro-life and walk down the street... you know, just in case they step on a small bug and kill it. Someone can't be pro-life and brush their teeth... because of all the bacteria that is killed. Pro-life is an overwhelmingly "religious" (I hate that word) position rooted in Biblical teaching. Certainly an atheist or agnostic could be pro-life, but the foundation of the pro-life movement is Biblical. Having said that, God makes it clear in Genesis that Man has dominion over animals, and He also makes it clear that man can eat meat.

No, God in genesis says to eat seeds and fruit, and only then talks about the dominion. By dominion I would think it means to protect them and their habitats (try that logic with a forester or a land developer). And only much later do other writers in the bible go on and on with the eating of corpses and how to do it and which ones to avoid. God had his say in Genesis 1:29.

As for killing bacteria and all, some things are unavoidable. The Jains try to avoid killing as much as they can. But purposely eating the bodies of dead animals is avoidable, just by not lifting them up to your mouth.

reply to post by Aleister


All right, so you agree with me that both are worthy of consideration, but the human is more important.

Animals should be treated with respect, but they are not equal to humans nor do they experience the world exactly like humans, either. We also need to not make the mistake of anthropomorphizing them (giving them human feelings and attributes they do not have). What would be cruel to a human simply isn't for an animal. A lot of people do major damage to their dogs and their relationships to their dogs because they make this mistake.

It's not enough to say, "I wouldn't like this; it would be intolerable to me, so why would it be good for an animal?" All that's really good for is provoking a knee-jerk emotional response that, while well-meaning, may be misguided. You need to understand the animal itself and how it is meant to be before you make any conclusions of that nature.

reply to post by ketsuko


For sure, good post. Even between humans it's impossible (except on a psychic level) to know what's it's like to be the other sex. There was that very interesting news a few weeks ago, and then the threads here, about how male and female human brains are hard wired so differently that it's almost like we are different species.

And I started vegetarianism in almost middle-age, so I had decades of loving meat, loving it so much that I was eating six sloppy-joes at a time. Killing myself softly with cows (dying) song. I'd be dead long ago if I hadn't stopped eating meat, and I owe that to the two people whom I hung out with for years when they lived near me who taught classes on veganism. Without me showing up at those classes I would have kept eating so much meat (I know, moderation, ha!, moderation be darned!) that my fork would have done me in.

HumanitiesLastHope
reply to post by Aleister

 

...Secondly,most people here are failing to realize humans would be more accurately classified as omnivores rather than carnivores, and even that is a stretch. I don't know why I see a few people here calling humans carnivores. Anyways A plant based diet (non GMO,pesticides,etc) is more effective and efficient for human survival. It is healthier to live off a plant based diet vs a meat....

You argue that a vegan diet is more effective and efficient, neither are true, whether you believe in evolution, creationism or stand indifferent as an atheist it is beside the fact that the human species developed a competitive advantage from eating protein and calorie rich meat. An omnivore diet for humanity created opportunities for us that other species didn't have. Humans could spend less time foraging for food to satisfy their dietary needs and thus were afforded more time for other activities. Agriculture and animal husbandry developed and humans no longer had to follow their food as nomads and became more sedentary. Human civilization blossomed with this competitive advantage these technological improvements, culture, arts, mathematics, science all borne of this diet.

While I'm not going to impose my beliefs on others and require them to do as I do, I am open to share my beliefs and discuss them with who ever I wish. If you like to eat meat then good for you, if you don't then good for you too, more for me. If you believe that it is healthier to live off a plant based diet then more power to you, but you are overlooking our history that has afforded you the opportunity to eat a vegetarian diet with out consuming all your time foraging to meet your dietary needs.

Just like the bumper-sticker says "thank a teacher if you can read this." Thank an omnivore for giving you the opportunity you have to read, write, openly discuss your opinion, work in a specialized field and eat a specialized diet.

Plants are life, did you fail biology?

You Vegans and weekend Vegetarians amuse me. Your argument has holes, It is selective arguing. You are chosing to select what is life and what is not but the truth is, lettuce lives, vegetables are alive until they are ripped out from their roots. Science has proven that plants scream when you kill them, remember that when you bite into a nice crispy piece of lettuce.

Everytime you eat a seed or bean you are eating a fully developed plant embryo, if you put it in the ground (womb) it would grow so you are essentially depriving it of its life.

As the second poster stated the best thing you and everyone else can do is be thankful for the nourishment that life gives you. Do not take for granted what you eat be thanful for it instead.

I see nothing wrong with the way your friend thinks.

reply to post by ManBehindTheMask


I don't think it's ridiculous at all and the OP has a very good point. Life is life.

Aleister
reply to post by ketsuko

 

And I started vegetarianism in almost middle-age, so I had decades of loving meat, loving it so much that I was eating six sloppy-joes at a time. Killing myself softly with cows (dying) song. I'd be dead long ago if I hadn't stopped eating meat, and I owe that to the two people whom I hung out with for years when they lived near me who taught classes on veganism. Without me showing up at those classes I would have kept eating so much meat (I know, moderation, ha!, moderation be darned!) that my fork would have done me in.

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Yikes! Sloppy Joes?

Well, you have to understand that I'm not that far off the farm. So, while I eat meat, I also respect the source. Most farmers (small farmers) respect their stock. They aren't pets, but they are their livelihood. A farmer can't afford to mistreat his livestock. We have cousins who still raise a small herd of beef cattle. My grandfather raised sheep. My best friend from college raises goats and chickens.

You don't get attached to them because when it's time for them to go, they go. They are your source of table meat. At the same time, you care for them every day and you get close enough to them that you know them well enough to recognize when they don't feel well, and you don't want them to be sick both because it's bad for if they are sick and because you don't like seeing them feel bad. And a farmer takes pride in having good, healthy stock. It's a compliment to him when his animals are happy and healthy.

The cow or the pig or the sheep doesn't think about tomorrow. All they know is today. And if today is good, then their life is good and worth living.

Spiramirabilis
reply to post by LittleByLittle

 

It's all about compassion my friend - soul or no soul

How is it that the humans have one and the critters don't?

How is it OK to mistreat things without a soul if having a soul is suppose to mean you're better?

What is a soul for - anyhow?

:-)

So eating animals is mistreatment? Would you say that lions tearing apart a gazelle is mistreatment?