A new study about guns and gun deaths: Backs up what many have been saying all along

lonegurkha
reply to post by Antigod

 

Since we should learn from the mistakes of history, the next time someone talks in favor of gun control, find out which group of citizens they wish to have exterminated.

Since you are clearly anti gun I really need to ask the question. Which group of people do you want exterminated?

Idiots who think allowing my moron neighbours access to guns is a good idea. Just kidding.

I come from one of the few families that owned handguns in the eighties, know many current gun owners. I have some perspective on this one.

I agree with the guy who says constant surviellance is the answer. I'd loved to have actual footage of when they shot Mark Duggan. Would have saved a lot of grief all round.

reply to post by Antigod


that figure (whether true or not) is based on an already assumed injury.

whens the last time you saw a knife jam or misfire?

google glass? cell phone?

have you ever seen one of these?

do you know how easy they are to create, let alone purchase? the parts are readily available at radioshack. its surprisingly SIMPLE technology.

good luck with your communications devices. they are far more vulnerable and far less reliable than simple weaponry.

Antigod
reply to post by lonegurkha

 

Here's a good reminder of what gun control is all about.Paul Harvey

Something to think about

While the middle east had guns coming out of the wazoo and had to put up with vicious regimes that murdered dissidents for decades. Guns do not equate to civil liberty or personal safety.

Communication systems are the key to the populace being empowered and safe from dictators. Keeping the army engaged with the civillian population is also key. As is freedom of speech and a fuctioning free media. A large empowered middle class is also crucial, which is why you see civil rights in East Asia become better as their middle classes increase.

Guns do squat. In the UK we watch the level of gun crime and then the way your authorites treat your population and shake our heads in disbelief.

UK has about 22,151 stabbing incidents a year from what I have seen and that is with a population of what 64 million? America has 310 million or 4.8 times as many people.. 4.8 X 22,151 = 1,063,248... Maybe my Brit X-pat friends make a point, no ?

Yep in the U.K. the Bad guys have just changed to knives and machetes... Plenty of news reports and videos showing innocent people being stabbed and killed for absolutely no reason... @1:13... Keep that criminal gene pool going and let's see what happens to the U.K. in another 10 to 20 years... I am surrounded by Brits who are X-pats that have left the U.K.; crime is the number #1 reason they say they left.. Guess it depends on where you live in the Queen's kingdom....?
Your countries statistics are no doubt different with regards to crime and weapons used... The Op report was on permit holders or armed citizens in the U.S.
Also we in the states have a serious problem with Narco bands (Cartels) that are well armed and financed...


Nov. 2013 on crime rates in the U.K. But look what happened to a old guy who opened his door @ 5:15..

This seems to come up quite regularly and probably if there was a way to condense the lord knows how many threads it would be in a sticky somewhere

In an armed civilization such as the USA where the default state is for ownership then its pretty obvious that not owning one will put you at a disadvantage in any balance of power situation where as in other countries like the UK where gun ownership has never really been a major part of life and the slow tightening of firearm laws since the end of WW1 has meant that owning a gun has not been a 'normal' state for Brit's even though its very easy to get a shotgun license etc finding somewhere to go legally to use it has been a problem as you don't want to be caught for trespass with a gun

The real thing that in any society is that there is balance, if the public,police and criminals all have guns then things are in balance and society will operate reasonably normally just the same as here in the UK where none of the 3 have guns by default so balance is restored and its messing with that balance that causes trouble.

Sure, they can have my gun...one bullet at a time.

-Peace-

reply to post by 727Sky

Two factors in the prevalence of knife crimes: Stealth & Silence. You get neither when a handgun is employed.

reply to post by Antigod

Keeping the army engaged with the civillian population is also key.

In the United States there should be no dichotomy between the military and civilians. They should not be separate things.

If you are born in the US, it is your responsibility to join a local militia to learn the skills necessary to defend yourself, your liberty, your family, and your community.

reply to post by Antigod


I didn't realize that you are from the UK when I responded.

The United States is a republic, it is the citizens responsibility to provide for their own safety, and the safety of the union.

We've lost our culture, and we are suffering because of it.

This is not what some predicted eh?

Wouldn't be the first time.

www.wnd.com...

In March 1982, 25 years ago, the small town of Kennesaw – responding to a handgun ban in Morton Grove, Ill. – unanimously passed an ordinance requiring each head of household to own and maintain a gun. Since then, despite dire predictions of “Wild West” showdowns and increased violence and accidents, not a single resident has been involved in a fatal shooting – as a victim, attacker or defender.



The crime rate initially plummeted for several years after the passage of the ordinance, with the 2005 per capita crime rate actually significantly lower than it was in 1981, the year before passage of the law.

Prior to enactment of the law, Kennesaw had a population of just 5,242 but a crime rate significantly higher (4,332 per 100,000) than the national average (3,899 per 100,000). The latest statistics available – for the year 2005 – show the rate at 2,027 per 100,000. Meanwhile, the population has skyrocketed to 28,189.
By comparison, the population of Morton Grove, the first city in Illinois to adopt a gun ban for anyone other than police officers, has actually dropped slightly and stands at 22,202, according to 2005 statistics. More significantly, perhaps, the city’s crime rate increased by 15.7 percent immediately after the gun ban, even though the overall crime rate in Cook County rose only 3 percent. Today, by comparison, the township’s crime rate stands at 2,268 per 100,000.

This was not what some predicted.


Read more at www.wnd.com...

Snarl
reply to post by 727Sky

 

Two factors in the prevalence of knife crimes: Stealth & Silence. You get neither when a handgun is employed.

Oh, I dunno.
A Ruger MK II .22LR with low velocity ammunition and a high-end silencer would likely not be recognized by the untrained ear until it was too late...
That said, IMO you can't beat a compound crossbow for silent dispatch at a distance.

-Peace-

TBH I am sick of hearing from our UK cousins how they figure we should live.
They got their asses handed to them in 1776, and their puny attempt to rule the entire world is defunct.
Violent crime is rife in the UK and assaults are numerous as anywhere.....
Their cops carry submachine guns at the airports and they have flying squads of armed police.
The whole freakin country is covered with TV cameras and they are one of the most spied upon nations.
Why cant they fix their own problems before ranting to us about their gun Theories which do not fit the situation here.
The uk is a nation that is packed with people.
We have near limitless spaces and the police are far from showing up in time to do aught but bag n tag the bodies....
Truth be known its our OWN business!

stirling
TBH I am sick of hearing from our UK cousins how they figure we should live.
They got their asses handed to them in 1776, and their puny attempt to rule the entire world is defunct.
Violent crime is rife in the UK and assaults are numerous as anywhere.....
Their cops carry submachine guns at the airports and they have flying squads of armed police.
The whole freakin country is covered with TV cameras and they are one of the most spied upon nations.
Why cant they fix their own problems before ranting to us about their gun Theories which do not fit the situation here.
The uk is a nation that is packed with people.
We have near limitless spaces and the police are far from showing up in time to do aught but bag n tag the bodies....
Truth be known its our OWN business!

Sigh, how dare we point out our homicide rate is about 1/4 of yours and that the difference is made up by your gun deaths.

Yes we do have a few armed police, rarely seen unless you're in a black gang area with guns. And most of us are fine with the surviellance, The reason we have a high crime rate is ludicrously soft sentencing which lets criminals outo reoffend thanks to wet judges. And we count violent crimes a little differently, quite minor things show up as assaults on our stats.

Yes our army lost in whenever, sad how that makes you feel big today. Maybe the vietnamese should have a laugh at your expense now huh?

reply to post by 727Sky


America has about 4 times more homicides on a per capita basis, not overall. Your population commits 4x more homicides per 100,000 than the UK.

Ergo, more theoretically more criminal UK population with no access to guns kills fewer than the less criminal USA population with guns, so we can deduce:

Knives less dangerous.

UK has 330 ish knife deaths a year. Population about 64 million. So about 1/194,000 chance

USA has 2000 ish gun deaths a year, pop about 313 million. About 1/156,000 chance

No a lot of difference really.

UK has about 62 gun deaths a year (about 1/million chance)
USA has about 11,000 gun deaths a year (1/28,000 chance)

Your excess homicides are gun deaths.

The overall crime rate in the USA is falling because your population is aging, most crimes are committed by the 15-25 year old male group as this group makes up a smaller portion so your crime rate will fall. It's not caused by rising gun ownership

reply to post by Antigod


That is some weird thinking and I'll explain why. England has one of the lower homicide rates in the world, per capita, but then, SO does the United States. 4x's is a little disingenuous unless we have the scale to work from in putting that with some context.

The UK is 1.2 and the US is 4.7. That's a whopper of a difference, if it were a sliding 10 point scale or something. It's not though...and the US ranks on the lower (better) end of middle from nations with FAR greater firearms control than we have, if that's the factor to be looking at... Among those with more killing than we experience here?

The Ukraine at 5.2
British Virgin Islands at 8.4 (8x's the overall UK!)
Russia at 10.2
Bermuda at a scary 12.3
North Korea at 15.2
Kenya at 20.1
Tanzania at 24.5 (GASP!)
South Africa at 31.8
and taking the top at a very busy 91.6 is Honduras. A rough place by those figures and 90 or so times more dangerous than the UK...

Per capita numbers are useful, but only in context..in my view.

Source: Wikipedia Listing of UNODC Data charts

reply to post by Antigod


So you compare your caste society all stuck in an area the size of texas to a country of mostly people from EVERYWHERE and say that about blades?
Good,by God I actually prefer blades,one good poke and its over no muss no fuss. Yeak I grew up with guns and Of course the cav but knives are better.

We are the gun people. We WLL KEEP them, thank you soooo much for your concern.


Just let me know when you figure out how to disarm ALLLLLL the bad guys and I won't need guns any more.

Wrabbit2000
reply to post by Antigod

 

That is some weird thinking and I'll explain why. England has one of the lower homicide rates in the world, per capita, but then, SO does the United States. 4x's is a little disingenuous unless we have the scale to work from in putting that with some context.

The UK is 1.2 and the US is 4.7. That's a whopper of a difference, if it were a sliding 10 point scale or something. It's not though...and the US ranks on the lower (better) end of middle from nations with FAR greater firearms control than we have, if that's the factor to be looking at... Among those with more killing than we experience here?

The Ukraine at 5.2
British Virgin Islands at 8.4 (8x's the overall UK!)
Russia at 10.2
Bermuda at a scary 12.3
North Korea at 15.2
Kenya at 20.1
Tanzania at 24.5 (GASP!)
South Africa at 31.8
and taking the top at a very busy 91.6 is Honduras. A rough place by those figures and 90 or so times more dangerous than the UK...

Per capita numbers are useful, but only in context..in my view.

Source: Wikipedia Listing of UNODC Data charts

Which is why I posted the actual numbers.

Can't compare the murder rates from the richer nations to the poorer fairly. You need to compare rich developed nations to rich developed nations with similar ethnic make up (yes, race does make a difference to crime rates) and funtioning law and order.

America really sucks when compared on a like to like with Europe for homicides. You've got the highest homicide rate of a developed nation, and available guns are what cause the difference.

cavtrooper7
reply to post by Antigod

 

So you compare your caste society all stuck in an area the size of texas to a country of mostly people from EVERYWHERE and say that about blades?
Good,by God I actually prefer blades,one good poke and its over no muss no fuss. Yeak I grew up with guns and Of course the cav but knives are better.

We are the gun people. We WLL KEEP them, thank you soooo much for your concern.


Just let me know when you figure out how to disarm ALLLLLL the bad guys and I won't need guns any more.

Wow, you've got a testosterone problem.

We don't have a caste society, we have social mobility. We also have just about the most cosmopolitan urban population on the planet. Maybe sixty years ago that your statement have been accurate. I suggest you send off for a passport and come to London. Half the residents are from other countries/ethnicities.

I've posted the stats for the deaths, it's obvious the excess homicides are from your handgun ownership.

Note I say 'handgun' I don't object to long rifles and shotguns as they are pretty useless for street crime and hard to conceal. I'd suggest you ban handguns and swap over to long guns. Perfect to defend the home, not great for holding up liquor stores.

It's an open forum, get over the fact the people are entitled to disagree with you and provide data that contradicts what you want to beleive.

Wrabbit2000
I believe which society we're talking about is important, and I'd assume the OP is talking about the US. For instance, if adding concealed handguns to England or Italy or Japan? I think there would be disaster on a stick. They are societies totally and absolutely unaccustomed to widespread private ownership of firearms, let alone carry in public.

Well there are plenty of gun clubs, I don't know much about them though. While people in the UK are in the main unaccustomed to arms, the whole philosophy of carrying arms is anathema to people here, and the government response is appropriate, as the vast majority of officers are unarmed, and those that are have constant training, and are closely monitored, and even with all that errors occur.
Northern Ireland's officers are armed, but it's not a response to the civil population, it's because there is a clear danger of terrorism, where the police themselves are the targets.

I agree that stats can be misleading, the devil could quote scriptures to suit himself, and stats are so often used in that way.
I don't think that there are any easy solutions about the use of guns in the US though, while I do think it is problematic, and there is always this peculiar perchant of making every problem into two way political agenda, or about making the case as if in a court of law. It's never like that, and people need to deal with it.
I see regular IMO, abuses in the use of guns in the US just by looking at the telly or the 'net, the militia/army whoever in Boston driving up residential streets pointing their heavy weapons at people houses in the aftermath of the bombings WTF was that about? testing their urban warfare skills? you don't point guns at people in that way, so even the regular owning of weapons is no clue as to how they are used, certificate or none.

reply to post by Antigod


You can't compare any of the nations in absolute terms the way you're attempting to. Per Capita homicide rates are symptoms as much as problems in their own right and a myriad of causes to that for one place vs. another. Are you any safer in the ghettos of London than you are in the South side of Chicago? I seriously doubt it and take it from people I know living there to give a local's perspective. How many urban ghetto areas for any race, exist to count? The US has 50 states and several times the population with MANY more urban areas to have many more ghetto or very low income/high crime areas. So in sheer High Crime area vs. High Crime area ...the US is starting with 2 strikes out for a comparison.

Now on the other hand, get outside the Murder capitals of this nation like Chicago, Detroit, St Louis and others ...and you can walk down the street day or night with no serious problems in far more places than you cannot do so. In my entire time trucking across the lower 48 states, I only feared for my safety in overnight street parking a couple times... NYC, Birmingham, Alabama and Hialeah, Florida top the list ...with very few other examples.

The image of the United States as some wild, free for all crime fest is B.S. and ignorant...fueled by a wild media that feeds off the motto "If it bleeds, it leads" and they live it, daily. Keep that in mind while looking at coverage of events and places you can't personally experience to know by direct observation. We DO have high crime, oh very much so...but it's by NO stretch of the imagination, what the Media or some here make it out to be as a factor of daily life.