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We Haven't Been Visited? Examining Arguments Against ET Visitation.

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posted on Feb, 10 2014 @ 11:04 PM
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reply to post by tanka418
 

Just sounds like you are confusing a lot off different things which is why its hard to know what you are talking about. beliefs, scientific knowledge, possibility, probability, UFO lore, real information, logic. Its kind of all jammed in there and all mixed together as if its one thing. You need to categorize that stuff and keep it separate. With a little effort, you could come off as believable.


edit on 10-2-2014 by ZetaRediculian because: (no reason given)




posted on Feb, 10 2014 @ 11:58 PM
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ZetaRediculian
reply to post by tanka418
 

Just sounds like you are confusing a lot off different things which is why its hard to know what you are talking about. beliefs, scientific knowledge, possibility, probability, UFO lore, real information, logic. Its kind of all jammed in there and all mixed together as if its one thing. You need to categorize that stuff and keep it separate. With a little effort, you could come off as believable.


edit on 10-2-2014 by ZetaRediculian because: (no reason given)


No, I'm not confusing anything. I thought you were some kind of non-mainstream Wizard or something like that. Yet you don't seem to have much grasp of metaphysics, especially where Hermes is concerned. Anyway...

You can throw out "belief", while I do "believe" things, like most anybody else, I don't base any of that "belief" on "faith".
Lots of science, especially post-grad work; physics, chemistry, mathematics, micro-biology, genetics, astronomy, and of course computer and Data sciences, and electrical engineering. But that's just formal education. Informal includes what is referred to by the Golden Dawn as a "classical education", and of course the entire curricula of the Traditional and Thelemic Golden Dawn, as well as the entire curricula of Crowley's A:. A:.

I "believe" that all things are possible, and all things have a probability; some good, most not so much. And, yes I use UFO mythology; as a starting point for finding the homes of the visiting beings (there is over whelming evidence of extraterrestrial visitation).

So...plenty of real information, and above all; Logic.

As for "categorization"...I use the system of the Golden Dawn. And will continue until something better comes along.





posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 12:06 AM
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tanka418

dragonridr
Sorry we dont know this your making whats called an assumption based on beliefs.I to would like to believe we arent the only game in town.However we dont know the odds of intelligent life starting we could have been the ultimate cosmic fluke defying odds of trillions and trillions to one. This could have happened because there's trillions of universes and our number came up we dont know. I believe intelligent life is going to be very rare it might even be rarer it happens at the same time in the same galaxy considering the number and of course time periods involved.


But we do! I'm not basing anything on what I want it to be, but rather on carefully thought out conclusions taking literally decades. Even your "trillions and trillions" to one probability is wholly insignificant compared to the number of F, G, K class stars in this universe.

The reality of where we find ourselves is that life arose simultaneously in at least two places close to each other. Around 22% of the stars in this galaxy are F, G, and K class stars, and many of those are billions of years older than Earth. And, I'm sorry, but thinking of Earth as something "special" is just as egotistical as thinking Terrestrials are the only intelligence in the Universe; simple logic demands otherwise.

For further evidence of ET you might think about the Betty and Barney Hill case. And of course the "map" that came from all that. That map is rather remarkable, and does seems to defy probability.



edit on 10-2-2014 by tanka418 because: (no reason given)


Its not egotistical come on now thats a lame argument if the only planet we know to contain life is earth then its not egotistical its a fact until more information tells us otherwise. See you said you thought about it well thats not proof we have no clue and you have no clue what it took to get us here. You can quote odss of how many suns in how many galaxies may support life. But noticed a key word there may support life. For all you know we are the biggest cosmic fluke to ever occur. Or maybe it happened billions of years ago to a long dead race in a galaxy far far away. Judging from all the searching were doing i think life is very rare in a galaxy. And we could be the only intelligent species in the milky way. And of course it could happen in other galaxies but if thats the case will never meet them or contact them in any way.Even though there could be millions in galaxies through out the universe. Sometime people forget just how big the universe is even having intelligent species in our own galaxy we would still never know or meet.

Suppose our galaxy had a thousands species intelligent enough to explore space we still probably never meet them because of the distances were talking about. Large chunks of the milky way we just will never see do to stars and interstellar medium.So even with that many species were still alone at least in our corner of the galaxy. We live in the middle of no where as it is in probably the most boring part of the galaxy. Because this is a new neighborhood the arms have only been around for about 8.8 billion years the central part has been around alot longer.



posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 01:23 AM
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reply to post by dragonridr
 


What do you supposed the probability of someone drawing a dozen or so points on a sheet of paper and having that "pattern" match a star configuration, viewed not-from Earth?

How about that pattern matching F, G, and K class stars, several with known planets, in the habitable zone?

Are these facts meaningless? What if; a couple of these stars had rumors, and "fair / so-so" evidence of actual habitants (and of course plenty of BS)?

definition of "fair / so-so": high probability, medium to low-medium confidence interval.

In my opinion; the failure to acknowledge the logic that Terrestrial Humans are not the only intelligent specs is purely egotistical. To presume that the Earth is in any way special is the same. Logic and reason demand that Terrestrial Humans not be alone in the cosmos, and that there are necessarily others...filling a wide spectrum of life forms.



posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 01:37 AM
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reply to post by tanka418
 



No, I'm not confusing anything. I thought you were some kind of non-mainstream Wizard or something like that. Yet you don't seem to have much grasp of metaphysics, especially where Hermes is concerned. Anyway...

Yes, anyway. you sound even more confused. When we were role playing, I was a wizard and you were a magical alien wolfman from space trying to prove you had alien dna. Playing make believe and dress-up is fun but remember...its not real. Its like talking to someone who forgot their safe word.

I use the system of the Golden Dawn

paying a prostitute to pee on you doesn't make you sound any better.
edit on 11-2-2014 by ZetaRediculian because: you went full retard. never go full retard



Are these facts meaningless?

Things are not facts because you say they are. People that have delusions also have facts that help support their beliefs. If you want to believe in the Betty Hill star map, that's one thing but to include that as a "fact" of your carefully researched scientific data is a bit of stretch if not deliberately deceptive.
edit on 11-2-2014 by ZetaRediculian because: Rainman, autistic sure. not retarded



posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 01:43 AM
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tanka418
reply to post by dragonridr
 


What do you supposed the probability of someone drawing a dozen or so points on a sheet of paper and having that "pattern" match a star configuration, viewed not-from Earth?


Easy when you have an entire galaxy to match it with.


How about that pattern matching F, G, and K class stars, several with known planets, in the habitable zone?


Again shows nothing a habitable zone means it may have liquid water.No guarantee it does mars and venus are in sols habitable zone and there dead planets.



Are these facts meaningless? What if; a couple of these stars had rumors, and "fair / so-so" evidence of actual habitants (and of course plenty of BS)?

definition of "fair / so-so": high probability, medium to low-medium confidence interval.


Please dont tell me your going to say rumors has anyone been there? I heard rumors the moon was made of cheese i learned otherwise when i got older.


In my opinion; the failure to acknowledge the logic that Terrestrial Humans are not the only intelligent specs is purely egotistical. To presume that the Earth is in any way special is the same. Logic and reason demand that Terrestrial Humans not be alone in the cosmos, and that there are necessarily others...filling a wide spectrum of life forms.


Logic is not proof trust me when looking at the universe you can throw logic out the window it defies imagination the more we learn. It isnt logical it will never be either the universe itself defies logic just being here.



posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 03:04 AM
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tanka418
reply to post by dragonridr
 


What do you supposed the probability of someone drawing a dozen or so points on a sheet of paper and having that "pattern" match a star configuration, viewed not-from Earth?

How about that pattern matching F, G, and K class stars, several with known planets, in the habitable zone?

Are these facts meaningless? What if; a couple of these stars had rumors, and "fair / so-so" evidence of actual habitants (and of course plenty of BS)?

definition of "fair / so-so": high probability, medium to low-medium confidence interval.

In my opinion; the failure to acknowledge the logic that Terrestrial Humans are not the only intelligent specs is purely egotistical. To presume that the Earth is in any way special is the same. Logic and reason demand that Terrestrial Humans not be alone in the cosmos, and that there are necessarily others...filling a wide spectrum of life forms.


That depends on what logic and reason are based on. Materialistic science says life emerges spontaneously, theism says there is deliberation and that life emerges only when minds evolve it. If there is a spiritual factor involved in the process, life may be very rare in the universe.

Aliens are notorious for setting up pieces of theatre. The star map was probably such a piece, designed to fascinate people and add to the intrigue, to get people talking. The aliens themselves create lore to keep people guessing.
edit on 11-2-2014 by EnPassant because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 03:25 AM
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reply to post by EnPassant
 


Aliens are notorious for setting up pieces of theatre. The star map was probably such a piece, designed to fascinate people and add to the intrigue, to get people talking. The aliens themselves create lore to keep people guessing.


You definitely have a unique perspective and hope to hear more from you. We are pretty much in agreement except I would replace "aliens" with "human minds" in your sentence.



posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 09:22 AM
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dragonridr
Easy when you have an entire galaxy to match it with.


LOL Care to try? I have a database of something over 10000 stellar objects; how about we draw 7 - 8 random dots and "see" if that pattern can match existing (known/cataloged) stars. Actually if we limit our search to every minute of arc, and ignore the distance we can have as few as 466,560,000 places for a stellar object to be. That gives us say 8 chances in 466.5 million or a probability of 1.714677e-8 for producing a match randomly. And that is with the entire universe, not limited to just one galaxy.

The reality is that it is very difficult to match a pattern of dots to existing stars with any precision; yet that is just what happened in the Hill star map.



Again shows nothing a habitable zone means it may have liquid water. No guarantee it does Mars and Venus are in Sols habitable zone and there dead planets.


Well I wasn't talking about habitable zones, but...if you want to bring that up: Venus resides just a wee bit too close to the Sun to truly be in the habitable zone, while Mars is a Planet that is about 1/10 (0.107) the size of Earth. This is "why" Mars is lifeless now...insufficient planetary mass to sustain the magnetic field...we can all "see" the effect of that. And, while "blind" logic may indicate that water is not necessarily at any "given" place...it turns out one of the most abundant "things" in this Universe is good ole "Water"; seriously, literally, the stuff's everywhere! So I don't see any issues with Water being present where we want it.. The big issue here is whether it is liquid or not.



Please dont tell me your going to say rumors has anyone been there? I heard rumors the moon was made of cheese i learned otherwise when i got older.


Well, this is quite a bit different than a child's tale now isn't it? No I wont use rumor, but I will use the reports of the experiencers, along with a large dose of what I know to be "fact".

Its like this; someone comes to me and tells me a story. I then use what I know of the Universe to evaluate that story. Typically when talking about extraterrestrials we get "rumors" of ET being from Sirius, or the Pleiades (actually my favorites are the Pleiades, Vegans, and Arcturians). When I apply what I know of the Universe I find that Sirius is too hot, too young for advanced life at this time. The same goes for the Pleiades. Vega, while the right class of star, is far to young, and Arcturus, like Aldeberan is a dying star already in its dwarf stage (almost gone).

Zeta 2 Reticuli is a "G" class star around 4.5 - 6+ billion years old. It has a circumstellar debris disk, though, no known planets at this time. However these "rumors" have a species of intelligent, space-faring "people" living there...From all indication that is highly probable. Another part of the map; Tau Ceti has two planets within its HZ, and again rumors of life.

Betty and Barney received what appears to be a somewhat exaggerated map of Reticulan space. This thing reminds me of some marketing crap found right here on Earth (you know; like when a trucking company or Cell provider proudly displays their delivery coverage).

And; "has anyone been there?" Really depends on you definition of "been there". Terrestrial Humans have developed technologies that allow them to sense stuff at great distance...sometime over distances of many light years. So, has anyone been there? Yes, sort of. Though they didn't see ET not his planet...sensors aren't quite that good. But, they are good enough to find stars and sometimes planets that could potentially support ET's life. By the way; we have very solid proof that class "G" stars can support life as it is known on Earth.




Logic is not proof trust me when looking at the universe you can throw logic out the window it defies imagination the more we learn. It isnt logical it will never be either the universe itself defies logic just being here.


No logic isn't proof...though frequently it is something better as it can predict reality. There is NEVER a case where logic doesn't apply, though we may not always "see" how that logic applies...logic cannot be defied, only misunderstood.



edit on 11-2-2014 by tanka418 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 09:34 AM
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EnPassant
That depends on what logic and reason are based on. Materialistic science says life emerges spontaneously, theism says there is deliberation and that life emerges only when minds evolve it. If there is a spiritual factor involved in the process, life may be very rare in the universe.

Aliens are notorious for setting up pieces of theatre. The star map was probably such a piece, designed to fascinate people and add to the intrigue, to get people talking. The aliens themselves create lore to keep people guessing.


I've always thought of logic as something that is sort of "standalone". In that it isn't based on anything other than itself. Course then again I've been a big "fan" of Boole for a long time.

Why would they use the map in this manner? The view given is from a distance around 250ly from Earth, and from the "other side" of Zeta 2 Reticuli...probability would suggest that the map should have been virtually impossible to match using Terrestrial knowledge. Seriously...one of the most complete databases of stellar objects is barely over 10,000 records. Though I will agree that its intent is to "impress" rather than truly "inform".




posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 09:37 AM
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ZetaRediculian
You definitely have a unique perspective and hope to hear more from you. We are pretty much in agreement except I would replace "aliens" with "human minds" in your sentence.


Damn you!!!


We're not supposed to agree...ever!

But...if ya want theatre...call a Terrestrial...



posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 09:47 AM
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reply to post by tanka418
 


JadeStar is pretty knowledgeable about this so you should discuss it with her.



posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 09:51 AM
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reply to post by tanka418
 



Course then again I've been a big "fan" of Boole for a long time.

its spelled "BULL"



posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 11:12 AM
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ZetaRediculian
reply to post by EnPassant
 


Aliens are notorious for setting up pieces of theatre. The star map was probably such a piece, designed to fascinate people and add to the intrigue, to get people talking. The aliens themselves create lore to keep people guessing.


You definitely have a unique perspective and hope to hear more from you. We are pretty much in agreement except I would replace "aliens" with "human minds" in your sentence.


Flying saucers in the sky are pure theater. Aliens use the language of symbolism and myth to communicate what they want us to believe. People are taken on to ufos and are given experiences that will impress them. Religious people are given religious imagery, new age people are given new age symbolism - people are shown whatever they will believe or want to believe or whatever will bring them into the aliens' power. They are flattered, impressed, made to feel important. Appeals are made to their vanity; they are 'chosen'. These beings are masters of psychological manipulation and control. The star map is just another piece of theatre to make it look like she is being shown something important...



posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 12:19 PM
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tanka418

dragonridr
Easy when you have an entire galaxy to match it with.


LOL Care to try? I have a database of something over 10000 stellar objects; how about we draw 7 - 8 random dots and "see" if that pattern can match existing (known/cataloged) stars. Actually if we limit our search to every minute of arc, and ignore the distance we can have as few as 466,560,000 places for a stellar object to be. That gives us say 8 chances in 466.5 million or a probability of 1.714677e-8 for producing a match randomly. And that is with the entire universe, not limited to just one galaxy.

The reality is that it is very difficult to match a pattern of dots to existing stars with any precision; yet that is just what happened in the Hill star map.



Again shows nothing a habitable zone means it may have liquid water. No guarantee it does Mars and Venus are in Sols habitable zone and there dead planets.


Well I wasn't talking about habitable zones, but...if you want to bring that up: Venus resides just a wee bit too close to the Sun to truly be in the habitable zone, while Mars is a Planet that is about 1/10 (0.107) the size of Earth. This is "why" Mars is lifeless now...insufficient planetary mass to sustain the magnetic field...we can all "see" the effect of that. And, while "blind" logic may indicate that water is not necessarily at any "given" place...it turns out one of the most abundant "things" in this Universe is good ole "Water"; seriously, literally, the stuff's everywhere! So I don't see any issues with Water being present where we want it.. The big issue here is whether it is liquid or not.



Please dont tell me your going to say rumors has anyone been there? I heard rumors the moon was made of cheese i learned otherwise when i got older.


Well, this is quite a bit different than a child's tale now isn't it? No I wont use rumor, but I will use the reports of the experiencers, along with a large dose of what I know to be "fact".

Its like this; someone comes to me and tells me a story. I then use what I know of the Universe to evaluate that story. Typically when talking about extraterrestrials we get "rumors" of ET being from Sirius, or the Pleiades (actually my favorites are the Pleiades, Vegans, and Arcturians). When I apply what I know of the Universe I find that Sirius is too hot, too young for advanced life at this time. The same goes for the Pleiades. Vega, while the right class of star, is far to young, and Arcturus, like Aldeberan is a dying star already in its dwarf stage (almost gone).

Zeta 2 Reticuli is a "G" class star around 4.5 - 6+ billion years old. It has a circumstellar debris disk, though, no known planets at this time. However these "rumors" have a species of intelligent, space-faring "people" living there...From all indication that is highly probable. Another part of the map; Tau Ceti has two planets within its HZ, and again rumors of life.

Betty and Barney received what appears to be a somewhat exaggerated map of Reticulan space. This thing reminds me of some marketing crap found right here on Earth (you know; like when a trucking company or Cell provider proudly displays their delivery coverage).

And; "has anyone been there?" Really depends on you definition of "been there". Terrestrial Humans have developed technologies that allow them to sense stuff at great distance...sometime over distances of many light years. So, has anyone been there? Yes, sort of. Though they didn't see ET not his planet...sensors aren't quite that good. But, they are good enough to find stars and sometimes planets that could potentially support ET's life. By the way; we have very solid proof that class "G" stars can support life as it is known on Earth.




Logic is not proof trust me when looking at the universe you can throw logic out the window it defies imagination the more we learn. It isnt logical it will never be either the universe itself defies logic just being here.


No logic isn't proof...though frequently it is something better as it can predict reality. There is NEVER a case where logic doesn't apply, though we may not always "see" how that logic applies...logic cannot be defied, only misunderstood.



edit on 11-2-2014 by tanka418 because: (no reason given)



I so knew you were going to bring up betty and barney hills map you do know it doesnt match right? see since 1969 we have made advances on our star maps. See when Marjorie Fish looked at the map she had to go on available data at the time.But since then we have changed our star maps because of mapping projects and by the way last count over 100,000 not 10,000.

First not known at the time when this map was created zeta reticuli is actually a binary system. There actually less half the age of our sun meaning there a new formation no planets have been discovered it is believed there may be whats called an acretion disk. But not a likely area to find life but back to the map. The european space agency in 1989 sent up this.

www.rssd.esa.int...

Its called Hipparcos as i said it accurately Catalogued 118,218 stars charted with the highest precision. And when we take its information and look at the star map she drew as they say houston we have a problem.See fish set up certain parameters for her search no binaries because they make life unlikely. Didnt realize she picked a binary system but any way on her map some turned out to be much further away than previously thought. Other research has looked at stars included in Fish’s research. Two, 54 and 107 Piscium, have been revealed to be variable stars, while Gliese 67 and Tau 1 Eridani are in fact close binaries. Then some stars discounted by Fish have turned out to be potential abodes for life after all, for example Epsilon Eridani is not after all a binary star. So here read this when compared to updated information 6 of her stars arent even in that area turned out to be much further away. Then there is the maps accuracy of the stars that are there well its not very accurate at all really nothing that couldnt be accomplished through chance.Since we have to give some wide leeway as to the comparison of her mapp and the actual stars.

airminded.org...

Ok having blown up the star map lets move on to betty herself did you know prior to her abduction she was a member of a UFO club? Did you know that the next day she was there telling them her story which at first her husband denied wasnt until a month later he changed his story. Now just for consistency sake most abductees do not remember there abduction yet with her it was clear the next day odd dont you think? Sounds to me she bugged the crap out of him until he gave in so she could brag in front of other UFO nut cases. Then do you realize her story changed multiple times in fact one retelling mirrored a shos on the outer limits one of there favorite shows but later she denied this when the correlation was pointed out to her.

PS one more thing your odds are way off if we can match 6 dots from any angle out of 100000 your odss are guranteed to get a match from some angle if you spend enough time looking.Because even the angle Fishe had to use is not one you would use if you were from that system it was from above it and looking down at a severe angle.

edit on 2/11/14 by dragonridr because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 12:41 PM
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reply to post by tanka418
 


Mathematics suggests that the universe is intrinsically logical. They used the star map as a piece of theatre - see my last post.



posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 01:26 PM
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reply to post by dragonridr
 


Do you have sources for your information on the Hill map?

You might want to read this paper on the subject. Much of what you seem to believe is rather incorrect.

If you want sources for the paper just ask.

Ahhh yes, the "HIP" catalog; haven't imported it into my personal database yet; forgot how large it is.




posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 01:33 PM
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tanka418
reply to post by dragonridr
 


Do you have sources for your information on the Hill map?

You might want to read this paper on the subject. Much of what you seem to believe is rather incorrect.

If you want sources for the paper just ask.

Ahhh yes, the "HIP" catalog; haven't imported it into my personal database yet; forgot how large it is.




Your joking right? You sent me to a UFO conspiracy sight to look at there star map when i told you its based off information from 1969?? Thats the best you can do really???? try reading the article i included from an astronomer who writes in astronomical journals not ufo sites. See your evidence basically amounts to see there are aliens wow i dont even know how to talk to someone like that. As i said do some research you find her map is bogus just look at the link i gave you there are others by the way.Your circular argument is astounding to say the least go to an alien conspiracy website to prove aliens exist!!!!


edit on 2/11/14 by dragonridr because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 02:00 PM
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reply to post by dragonridr
 



Your joking right?
nope, not joking


You sent me to a UFO conspiracy sight

worse. He sent you to his site. Alien-wolf-magic
there he has proof of his alien DNA.



posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 02:01 PM
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dragonridr

tanka418
reply to post by dragonridr
 


Your joking right? You sent me to a UFO conspiracy sight to look at there star map when i told you its based off information from 1969?? Thats the best you can do really???? try reading the article i included from an astronomer who writes in astronomical journals not ufo sites. See your evidence basically amounts to see there are aliens wow i dont even know how to talk to someone like that. As i said do some research you find her map is bogus just look at the link i gave you there are others by the way.Your circular argument is astounding to say the least go to an alien conspiracy website to prove aliens exist!!!!


Well, the paper I sent you to des not use data from 1969, and uses NASA NStars database for much of it's data, The planetary data can be found on various astronomy sites and in the HABCAT database, which was also used.

So the information, positioning etc. of the stars in the opening graphic are100% accurate except for Gliese 67...(typo).

And, if you think that data from 1969 is significantly different that it is today, your are very mistaken...stars don't move that much...

And, perhaps you should do your own research on this, I have...that map reflects the accurate positioning of the relevant stars wen viewed from the correct location in space...do you know where that is? Read my paper on Zeta Reticuli and you'll find out.



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