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An Open Letter to Lovers of the Gun

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posted on Jan, 25 2014 @ 01:48 AM
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FyreByrd

Please show me where I, or the article I quoted, was trying to 'force anyone' to do anything different.

I, don't use 'force' on other people. I use reason and facts.

This looks to me to be an example of 'forcing' your opinion on others.



What's the matter?

The utopian dream of a world full of judgmental people
who form consensus based on who they think the lunatic is,
not coming together the way propaganda and the media promised?

Us peasants turned out to be smart enough to study, understand, and respect Law.

/sarcasm
Don't be sad.
/end sarcasm


Mike Grouchy




posted on Jan, 25 2014 @ 01:49 AM
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reply to post by FyreByrd
 


Just drop this off:
just the facts - gun violence



posted on Jan, 25 2014 @ 01:52 AM
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RoScoLaz

FyreByrd I get the 'defense against the governmnet' argument


i don't. americans have let and are letting their 'leaders' run them into the ground hand over fist. y'all have soooo many guns. why are you not using them to defend yourselves against your attackers (the government)? you're not. you don't. you won't. your precious weapons are impotent. you lost, but a gun in your hand makes you feel like a winner. pathetic.


I've never said this on the Internet before,
but I respect you RoScoLaz, and I'm going to tell you a secret about Americans.

Americans will revolt, but not while _they_ are watching.

The original Tea Party was a complete surprise.
The Raid on Harpers Ferry was a complete surprise.


Mike Grouchy



posted on Jan, 25 2014 @ 02:00 AM
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reply to post by FyreByrd
 


Id have to have him list the shootings. The other day a friend of mine posted there was another school shooting but it was a guy who killed another guy on a campus. It wasn't random, it was a straight up murder at a university. I dont consider that a school shooting.


edit on 25-1-2014 by GogoVicMorrow because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 25 2014 @ 02:02 AM
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The guns arent changing, the people are and I honestly blame drugs. Like ssri's. I really, honestly, that drugs along with the isolation we commit to by using the internet as our only interaction is the blame.

It will only get worse too.

Think of this.. teens, people, everyone used to get together and have conversations with people and sometimes on dark subject matter. Sometimes with close friends people really open up knowing they won't be judged. People dont do that in the internet age and with the paranoia (that is justified) caused by NSA and so forth people will be more and more careful and they won't have those conversations, especially the sensitive ones out of fear of it getting out online or someone else misunderstanding it.

So those things are held inside by these young people. Then they throw them on drugs that make them less empathetic, numb, and potentially violent and you start the boil.

I dont believe movies and games themselves cause real world violence, but if a kid is setting i n front of a t.v. for 10 hours a day 7 days a week year round, with no human interaction and a brain full of ssri's - thats what leads to these tragedies.



posted on Jan, 25 2014 @ 05:49 AM
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FyreByrd

macman
reply to post by FyreByrd
 


What is anyone supposed to get out of this?

We get it. You and others are afraid of an inanimate object.
Just because you and he, and others want to disarm, does not mean everyone else should.

All this is is the typical Anti-Gun rights emotional rant.

The only thing missing was some kids standing behind Mr. Pitt, and maybe Senator de Leon giving his explanation of firearms.

If you and others want to ban guns, get the 2nd Amendment changed the correct way. Instead of circumventing the process and doing it the "Progressive's" way.



I do note that you are not disputing the facts: 1) the increasing school shootings or 2) that having a gun in your home increasing the chance that someone in that home will be wounded or killed by a gun.

That seems to be an emotional, as in not rational, position to take.

Yes I do get 'distrubed' (and confused) by people who based their decisions on emotion and not reason.

Nor do you present any rational reasons for keeping firearms such as protecting self and property (understandable) or protect yourself from your government (also understandable if somewhat naive).

I said nothing about banning 'guns' nor did Mr. Pitt in his piece. We both are expressing despair at this increasing violence in the countries schools. No solutions offered, just despair. I notice you offer no rational solutions either.




Another person who thinks you fix a choking patient's blue skin by painting it peach (or tan or brown). That'll fix em right up!! Right? LOL

You fix a problem by locating it's root cause and then you directly remove/repair the cause.

Same people who think you fix car accidents by making the car do everything FOR you.. LOL

Grow up.



posted on Jan, 25 2014 @ 06:44 AM
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I said this on New Year's Day: "In 2010, by comparison, there were nine school shootings in America that killed seven people. In 2011, there were eleven school shootings that killed nine people. In 2012, there were fourteen school shootings - including the massacres at Sandy Hook Elementary and Oikos University - that killed 43 people. In 2013, there were twenty-three school shootings that killed nineteen people. Nine, then eleven, then fourteen, then twenty-three. If the trend holds, we can look forward to maybe thirty or forty school shootings in 2014."
I was wrong. Seven school shootings in the first month of the year means we are on pace, if this keeps up, to have no less than 84 school shootings by the end of December.


First of all a shooting at a university should not be considered a school shooting. School shooting implies children and very very few university students are children.

Secondly, so far this year there have been 5 TRUE school shootings without a single fatality. Your 2012 example was 7fatalies in 9 shootings (.77 fatality per incident rate), and if you add in the university stuff this year, you're at 2/7 or .28 fatality per incident (roughly ONE THIRD) the 2010 rate.

Looks like you just got debunked.
edit on 25-1-2014 by 8675309jenny because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 25 2014 @ 07:02 AM
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FyreByrd

Actually, I would rather be killed then become a killer. I don't know if I could hold to that ideal if a child of mine was threatened, I'm being honest here - but that would be my desire.


This actually really bugs me. I know it's going to sound overly aggressive but seriously, what kind of man are you? This type of emasculation I feel is definitely a part of the mental health epidemic in the USA; especially linked to ambiguous gender roles and the expectation that we all be tolerant progressives who 'don't judge others'.

Go take some martial arts classes and learn to indulge in your personal might and ability. It's the best damn anti-depressant in the world!

I for one have no problem killing to preserve my own life. When pushed, I push back, and hard. I found my life became much better when I decided to take no # and regret nothing.
edit on 25-1-2014 by 8675309jenny because: (no reason given)

edit on 25-1-2014 by 8675309jenny because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 25 2014 @ 09:14 AM
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Ah yes, the old and worn out argument.... Remember spoons make people fat, pencils misspell words. It doesn't matter that those are inanimate objects. What would give an inanimate object life..... hmmm, a person? WHOA! What kind of person would slaughter others? A sick one is the answer. And to add, there is no such thing as an "assault weapon", assault is a behavior not an object. I've never owned a gun but grew up around them, but Santa was kind enough to change that this year.


gack.



posted on Jan, 25 2014 @ 09:51 AM
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reply to post by FyreByrd
 


People need to understand the reason for the second amendment of the United States. The second amendment was designed as a check against a tyrannical government period. Every human being has a fundamental right to self defense. The United states is a unique experiment where its citizens can posses and own firearms with few regulations. The Swiss and Yemen's are the only other countries with fundamental rights allowing citizens to own firearms in the world.

Many times you will hear in the propaganda machine as to why people need semi auto guns for hunting or the second amendment is about hunting. These people are either ignorant or are part of the propaganda machine. It was a given in colonial America that people would hunt with firearms. The majority of the people were agrarian farmers living in the country. "shall not be infringed" It's pretty self explanatory to me. Some argue it was meant for the militia or National Guard. Ok so we are saying the National Guard which now is controlled by the President in time of a world conflict shall not be infringed? It's all about control people. Certain psychotic people in this world want to dominate the majority and suppress them anyway they can. There is 1,0000's of pieces of historical evidence to prove this.

Crime rate can be manipulated to show whatever kind of propaganda you wish to promote. Overall violence crime has dropped significantly over the last several years according to FBI statistics. One of the primary reasons for this is because of the abatement of lead. Lead has been proven by SCIENCE to cause violence especially in young children whose systems are vulnerable. Lead based paints were banned in the early 70's which was the start of cleaning up the contamination in the environment. Violent crime began to spike in the 70's and 80's as this paint had since deteriorated and fallen into the soils where children played. The inner cites had the most contamination comprised of mostly blacks and Latinos.

Of course the rise of the gang cultures starting in the 60's and continue to this day is not helping gun violence. Most violent crime occurs in a several block or set of blocks in the inner cities. Most is perpetuated by violent gangs against one another. This is where the main problem lies within gun violence. Most of these people in the inner cities have been dependent on welfare handouts since the 60's and have no incentive or motivation to be independent thinkers and motivators for there communities. We now have 3rd and 4th generation welfare families and the kids have no positive role models.

The recent school shootings always seem to occur simultaneously. Is it a copy cat shooting or is it a more sinister plot designed by shadowy programs within the government or powers that be? Many are aware of the declassified operation Gladio which occurred in Europe prior to the 80's. This program created false flag plots to increase gun violence and other terrorist means to put pressure on the governments of the time to reform gun laws. We know they have used this method to disarm the masses before and as many know history does repeat it self.

Perhaps it's a Manchurian candidate scenario which has been widely documented as a means to control specific people to do what you want. The advancement of computer chips and talk of soldier robots by 2030 makes you wonder what kind of sinister and advanced technology these psychopaths will employ.

Bottom line is this. The states need there sovereign rights restored to decide for themselves what community standards should be in place in regards to firearms. Many states are rural and have little police protection and people generally police themselves in these areas. Then you have major metropolitan areas where police are of many and yet they fail to respond in a timely matter time and time again. Look at Newark and other cities with virtually no funds for police and you have lawlessness everywhere. People need protection and it's a fundamental human right and we in America are fortunate to have that right guaranteed by us in the form of a CONSTITUTION.



posted on Jan, 25 2014 @ 11:49 AM
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First off, try being a responsible parent and put it in a gun cabinet, while in your home...that's why we have laws. There, resolved. I bet your whole concept of the gun would change if someone tried to come in and rape or murder you for what little money you have, or someone that would make you watch your daughter get raped simply to get a rush. I bet you would kill for a gun then. You see, were they to take guns from the law abiding people....the criminals would not care about those laws , so then you would have a nation full of nothing but criminals with guns....and the average civilian would be a sitting duck. Guns don't even move if no one picks them up, so don't blame guns....blame crazy people and the institutional drugs they are on. If they don't have guns.....they will just use cars next and then we will have to ban transportation. A killer is a killer, the tool is nothing but another way to do it. It is a very, very small statistic of crazies with guns and the amount owned in the states by responsible adults. in fact, there are way more car accident deaths a year than people killed with guns and even way less that school shootings. its just he media again sensationalizing things to push their agenda to remove the weapons of American's so they can install their police state without a war. Kinda like what you're doing here.
edit on 25-1-2014 by Illuminawty because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 25 2014 @ 11:53 AM
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olaru12
I'm a gun owner and fully appreciate the responsibility of owning a killing machine.

What astonishes me is the absolute psychotic, psycho/sexual love of guns. It's almost a defining personality trait for some people; the "gun owner" with it's accompanying political conservative paranoia and fear based mindset.

Get a #%^*) life why don't ya!


edit on 24-1-2014 by olaru12 because: (no reason given)





Why oh why would you refer to your pistol / rifle as " a killing machine " ? The Icing on the cake " with it's accompanying political conservative paranoia and fear based mindset " I fail to see the connection. I actually view this as humorous. Hey ! Yeah you ! Wanna see my " KILLING MACHINE ? " It's right here in my pants.


Ref the OP. It is indeed unfortunate the OP was swayed by their alleged research. I can only assume
their research led them to the Kellermann study sponsored with grant money from the CDC. This alleged unbiased study is so utterly flawed Kellermann REFUSED to disclose his methods. After much prodding he fudged some data and presented it the community at large.
Folks who have a fear mongering anti-gun agenda utilize the 43Xs more likely nonsense as if it applies equally to all. IT DOESN'T ! Kellermann focused on three neighborhoods. All high crime areas frequented by
addicts, criminals and more importantly their EXTENDED family connections [ uncle killing cousin, second
cousin etc ] Knowing these numbers would instill a false emotional level of fear in the middle classes. Sarah Brady and all anti-gun groups flaunt these numbers as if they apply to all Americans. Unfortunately the ill informed do a cursory search on gun crime and this silly study will surface. You are doing yourself and family a huge disservice by placing them in a defenseless position should the need arise to defend themselves.Fortunately most violent crime does not occur in the home. I therefore opt to legally carry a 1911
NOT OUT OF FEAR but as a reasonable safeguard against cretins who may be inclined to inflict serious harm upon my loved ones. I personally find your decision to be a " Gun Free Zone " irresponsible. This then leaves us with the question, WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SAFETY OF YOU & YOURS ? Please reconsider your position . Although well intended it is based on FALSE information. Do you fall within this small sample of dis-functional family units ? You may also take note of their utilization of very subjective wording.

nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199310073291506 < Full text can be located here. Take Care

"The use of illicit drugs and a history of physical fights in the home are important risk factors for homicide in the home. Rather than confer protection, guns kept in the home are associated with an increase in the risk of homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance."



posted on Jan, 25 2014 @ 01:45 PM
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reply to post by FyreByrd
 


U left out the part where all those mass shooters were under darpa mind control programs to staged false flags so they can disarm everyone for the UN agenda 21.



posted on Jan, 25 2014 @ 02:07 PM
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And don't even talk about how many people die by PEANT BUTTER!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH The horror of it all. But Doctors still kill more.




posted on Jan, 25 2014 @ 02:33 PM
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reply to post by FyreByrd
 





That is beside the point. It is a dangerous variable, I can take out of my life.

..................... I have no reasonable use for a firearm and therefore 'choose' not to have one in my home and..............

And yes I do know it is still possible - but the odds are more in my favor and I like to think there is a 'karmic' component to it as well.


And that's awesome..........
for you.



posted on Jan, 25 2014 @ 04:40 PM
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Have a look at the so called Entertainment industry ,namely Hollywood, which promotes gun violence ,killing .murder ,torture ,rape ,physical ,verbal assaults ,profanities ,drug taking ,immoral sexual behaviour ,robbing Banks,etc and is marketed as cool ,neat ,your an idiot if your behind the times, and not part of it ,video games based on how many people you can kill, as how good you are, and how good you can score .There is the Amish people who have no part of this idiocy, and still own guns for hunting ,do you ever hear of them shooting up schools ? no you dont !!!! ,Hollywood and its brainwashing machine has alot to answer for, but their cop out is thats its only Entertainment and they are not to blame for what people do, Ethan Hawkes excuse was ''Oh its the availability of guns thats the problem ,not action Movies ''.Have a look at who owns and runs Hollywood and then question their motives ! We and society could do alot better by having movies, entertainment not based not on violence ,killing, and poor personal values ,instead entertainment that encourages values ,non violence ,decency ,honesty .Instead of this constant never ending Cop Out of blaming inanimate objects for Societies problems ,the whole thing is a racket and ''Set up '' scam and Agenda of modifying and moulding Societies opinion, to their own ends ,wake up !



posted on Jan, 25 2014 @ 04:45 PM
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reply to post by RoScoLaz
 


yeah alot of people though gadaffis rebbels were poorly armed and trained(problay with free weapons from some nation or another) and drug what they viewed as their tyrannical leader into the street and shot him while he begged for his life and uploaded it to you tube for the world to see ,this man had gunships,aircraft a navy and a cadre of loyal troops yet the common man drug him from his hideyhole and shot him with an ak47(one of the more common tools of freedomfighters/rebels/terrorists around the world) and then looted his corpse.

to answer your second question some times rarely in our history we have used our guns to either sucessfully defend our rights or fail vainly in the attempt.but the general consensus is that the line is drawn when advanced military tech is used against the common citizen or military firing wantonly into protestors

now a few examples of these can be found in our history the civil war for example is problay one of the more well known ones where people were pushed to such measures,another example of an incident that happened but did not escalate to rebellion was kent state when the national gaurd shot protestors and while open rebellion did not develop the anger was strong in the citizenry for a while
and as im unsure of the exact date and only know of the incident i think for a while the government was strafing protesting miners with aircraft and used machineguns against the populace (something like the early 20's or 30s i believe)
one where the little people did win was the battle of athens where returning GI's tired of the corruption in their county besiged the sherrifs department who had taken civilian hostages(the POLICE took hostages......) while trying to rig a local election it did not end well for the corrupt politicians or the police and the national gaurd flat out refused to deploy against their own people and not one of the "rebels" were charged and were in fact praised by the first lady Eleanor Roosevelt
en.wikipedia.org...
patriotpost.us... even an ats thread is cited in the wiki.
www.constitution.org... talks about the cops taking hostages and trying to raise more troops to defend them but no one came they came to ally them selves with the people who wanted democratic elections not the ones rigging them .

another reason we dont tend to get all leader overthrowing in this country is for most Americans that magic line has not been crossed least in their memory,add to the fact that we get a new idiot in chief every 4-8 years (baring another FDR) so it ends up being a cycle of well blame the last idiot and give the new idiot the benefit of the doubt until we get a new idiot and the cycle starts over again.Now compare that to what other countries who DID rise up against their leaders were dealing with people that had been in office since their citizens were children (40+ years in office for some like assad,gadaffi,castro etc) and that tends to build more hatred in the populace depending on if they are benevolent rulers or wicked mad men after living with them for so many years eventually you snap and talks of coups ring through towns and cities alike,but for us our anger goes away for MOST of us come the time a new leader is elected as we all have false hopes that the new one will be different then the old one

you have seen the frustration boil over of the american populace against a few branches of the government like the ATF,DEA and more commonly police officers (any one remember that video of the guy who just walked into a police station with a shot gun and started blasting cops not caring if he lived or died?) but if i had to pick three groups the american people are the most pissed off at right now id have to say congress(senate and the house) police in general and the justice department seem to be getting the most hatred from the general populace these days,from the non government camp im sure a good deal of americans are not happy with wallstreet fat cats and ceos but i digress

en.wikipedia.org... few other cases of outright rebellion by the populace of the USA


The Battle of Blair Mountain was one of the largest civil uprisings in United States history and the largest armed rebellion since the American Civil War.[1] For five days in late August and early September 1921, in Logan County, West Virginia, some 10,000 armed coal miners confronted 3,000 lawmen and strikebreakers, called the Logan Defenders,[2] who were backed by coal mine operators during an attempt by the miners to unionize the southwestern West Virginia coalfields. The battle ended after approximately one million rounds were fired,[3] and the United States Army intervened by presidential order.[4]


en.wikipedia.org...

The West Virginia Coal Wars (1920–21), also known as the Mine Wars, arose out of a dispute between coal companies and miners. On May 19, 1920, a shootout in Matewan, West Virginia, between agents of the Baldwin-Felts and local miners, who later joined the United Mine Workers of America, sparked what became known as the Battle of Blair Mountain, the largest insurrection in the United States since the American Civil War. The shootout is re-enacted annually in Matewan, West Virginia.[1] John Sayles dramatised these events in his 1987 film Matewan.[2]

they bombed citizens from the air during this one,tried to deny it but kind of hard to say you werent dropping bombs when the people captured a few of your bombs that did not blow up when dropped,they may not have won the battle but they won the war,they uninioized and got most of what they had wanted eventually and they did it just by fighting back against the government and they didnt even win yet their goals were achieved......

government put down the insurrection but yet the miners again got what they wanted and ended a few politicians jobs in politics over the incident and hey their goal was to not have convicts replace them and take their jobs and as the practice was ended and marked the end of such endevors id call that a win for them....funny how even while loosing the battle they still won the war..... or at least achieved their objectives

The Coal Creek War was an armed labor uprising that took place primarily in Anderson County, in the American state of Tennessee, in the early 1890s. The struggle began in 1891 when coal mine owners in the Coal Creek watershed attempted to replace free coal miners with convicts leased out by the state government. Over a period of just over a year, the free miners continuously attacked and burned prison stockades and company buildings, hundreds of convicts were freed, and dozens of miners and militiamen were killed or wounded in small-arms skirmishes. One historian describes the conflict as "one of the most dramatic and significant episodes in all American labor history."[1] The Coal Creek War was part of a greater struggle across Tennessee against the state's controversial convict-leasing system, which allowed the state to lease its convicts to mining companies to compete with free labor. The outbreak of the conflict touched off a partisan media firestorm between the miners' supporters and detractors, and brought the issue of convict leasing to the public eye. Although the uprising essentially ended with the arrests of hundreds of miners in 1892, the publicity it generated led to the downfall of Governor John P. Buchanan, and forced the state to reconsider the convict-leasing system.[2] In 1896, when its convict-lease contracts expired, Tennessee's state government refused to renew them, making it one of the first Southern states to end the controversial practice.[1]


just out of curiosity what lands do you hail from? so we can more easily bring up the tyrannical actions of your own government as i cant think of one nation on this planet has clean hands after all the history man kind has documented and forgotten



posted on Jan, 25 2014 @ 04:51 PM
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FyreByrd
Actually, I would rather be killed then become a killer. I don't know if I could hold to that ideal if a child of mine was threatened, I'm being honest here - but that would be my desire.



I appreciate your honesty, but that sounds to me like nothing but feel good, pacifistic rambling. You can't pick and choose when and where to be righteous either.


Killing isn't going to change the world for the better. It teachs that whoever has the most firepower is right and I reject that idea.


No killing isn't going to change the world, but it is a part of this world, it's called Natural law. You can reject the idea all you like, but that is just the way that it is.


I want to put my energy into making a better world not put it in defending against a possible world. What you focus on is what you get.


We all want a better world. However, The effect of thought on circumstance only goes so far. There exists this little thing called reality, and reality cancels out all that other best of all possible Worlds nonsense. ~$heopleNation



posted on Jan, 25 2014 @ 05:02 PM
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reply to post by GogoVicMorrow
 


en.wikipedia.org... lists all shootings from 1764-2014 i think the total is something like 280-300 total events now if we apply that to the ammount of humans in the usa who own guns we get a very low percentage of those who own guns who use them for such horrible acts,im horrible at math so i wont even try to break it down in to understandable statistics but im sure a member can break it down to show how few of the estimated 280million gun owners in the country that have actualy done or even attempted such crimes

and even knowing so little about math as i do im pretty sure that 300ish incidents out of all the guns owned in this country is not even one percent of the population,not to mention more then a few of the incidents listed were not specifically to target schools or school children specifically but kill one or more people they really just did not like......yet because it happened at/near a school it gets chocked up to "in school violence" there are obvious exceptions on the list like the teacher who blew up his students after killing his wife or Columbine for example
edit on 25-1-2014 by RalagaNarHallas because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 25 2014 @ 05:10 PM
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Answer me this OP. Aren't schools "gun free zones"? It's against the law to bring a gun on school grounds. Yet that hasn't stopped people from breaking that law. Now please explain how you expect law breakers to automatically follow laws that limit guns?

Your heart might be in the right place, but your . most certainly is not! You cannot take your subjective viewpoint and force it down other people's throats and expect them to see it your way. A gun is a great thing for self defense and hunting. Who are you (let alone the bleeding heart liberal author you used in your OP) to tell me; a law abiding citizen, what I can and can't use to defend myself with?

It truly pisses me off that people like you, and that delirious author, seem to think you know what's best for me and the rest of society. If a gun isn't for you, that is YOUR choice. You are well within your rights. However, so am I. I need no further explanation as to why I need or want a gun. As for you and that author, I leave you with this expression. Go kick rocks.




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